Safer use of D and anchor shackles... (1 Viewer)

[pismojim]

I'll stop laughing for a minute to acknowledge my improper use of the ARB bumper tabs as recovery points. I know I'm not alone. I haven't seen these tabs fail - yet. These the tabs designed for the ARB bumper / Hi-Lift jack attachment. (You know you can't Hi-Lift a ARB bumper right?)

The tabs are convenient for shackle storage but lousy for a recovery point. On my FJ60 ARB I bolted the stock tow hooks to the sides of the ARB's upright. I still need to do that on my 80 Series ARB.

As bad as those tabs are for recovery I was able to find an enthusiastic Alaskan who was willing to hook his winch cable to it.

Maybe a few pictures will help...

 

[pismojim]

So Eric, what ARE you going to put your shackle and washers on?

P.S. the Kaymar "tabs" are lousy recovery points too.

 

[Mark W]

We've got an ARB front bumper around here somewhere with a pair of bent tabs just like your Kaymare rear ones. But that waslargely because a chain was hooked in a "V" to both of them for a pull. Too short a chain and it put too much side load on them.

I don't mind using those tabs or ewven the factory tie down loops for a winch recovery. Much less stress involved than with a snatch. IIRC I was the Enthusiastic Alaskan running the OEM PTO winch that pulled you out of the mud and up the bank in that second shot.


Mark...

 

[PKP80]

First get to a trail, then take the harder line, get stuck, make sure you're stuck and can't move, then and ONLY then might you need use of a D-ring. One step at a time... but you're not going to get high centered on a speed bump at the mall.

I'll stop laughing for a minute to acknowledge my improper use of the ARB bumper tabs as recovery points. I know I'm not alone. I haven't seen these tabs fail - yet. These the tabs designed for the ARB bumper / Hi-Lift jack attachment. (You know you can't Hi-Lift a ARB bumper right?)

.

I've highlifted off Ammo's chopped ARB I'm running with no problems (yet) if you were to add some bracing to the ARB would you then lift off it or is it the mounting strength?

 

[reffug]

when if ever has e used a shackle???????????

 

[pismojim]

Actually, this time is was Greg "AKCruiser" pulling cable from Gina's "Flying" Forty's PTO at "Greater Satan" bog. That was a tough pull IMO, worse than it looks of course, but proved to be no trouble for the OEM PTO.

Good point about the difference between winch .vs. snatch loads. Notwithstanding the sand dunes, most pulls around here are winch pulls or easy "steady" strap tugs. We usually don't need the dynamic reaction of the snatch strap.

BTW, I try to keep the shackles in the "tabs" to prevent them from bending all the way over when dragging them on the rocks.

2WD cars present a difficult problem as they lack any type of recovery point. A couple weeks ago I saw a small sedan buried to the frame in the surf zone. Waves hitting it mid door and the tide was coming in. A good Samaritan (read young guy with BIG truck) was trying to help but there was nothing reachable to attach a strap to on the sedan. It was buried to the frame. Eventually he tied it to something I couldn't tell what. (He attached the other end to his hitch ball )

I would have suggested rolling down the windows and running the strap through the car using the B pillars for support. Yes, I'm guilty of disdain for people who stupidly drive sedans into the surf. BTW, the owner was more interested in taking pictures that helping with the recovery.

I doubt washer spacers for shackles would help any of the countless questionable recoveries I've witnessed.

 

[pismojim]

I've highlifted off Ammo's chopped ARB I'm running with no problems (yet) if you were to add some bracing to the ARB would you then lift off it or is it the mounting strength?

It's the set back and angle of the lip at the bottom of the bumper. THe lip isn't a good jacking point anyway. The Hi-Lift lifting jaw isn't long enough to reach under and catch this lip. Another lousy design feature of the ARB. ** See Note below

You need to buy one of these:
(see the bolt holding the "accessory"? this is what those tabs are designed for)

** Kudos to ARB, I just noticed this on their webpage:

ARB has developed a jacking bracket that is specifically designed to suit many of our earlier bull bars. Supplied with mounting bolts and its own fastening wrench, it can easily be fitted when required.

The majority of our recent bull bars, actually incorporate jacking points neatly positioned inside each lower front air vent. These reinforced points allow for a Hi-Lift jack to be mounted directly onto the bar during vehicle recovery, eliminating the need for a mounting bracket.

 

[Mark W]

Actually, this time is was Greg "AKCruiser" pulling cable from Gina's "Flying" Forty's PTO at "Greater Satan" bog. That was a tough pull IMO, worse than it looks of course, but proved to be no trouble for the OEM PTO.

Oh yeah, I remember it well. Gina's rig, but once she blasted up the bank I took over the winching. Your right, in the pictures that nasty hole just doesn't look like much.


Mark...

 

[Brentbba]

It's the set back and angle of the lip at the bottom of the bumper. THe lip isn't a good jacking point anyway. The Hi-Lift lifting jaw isn't long enough to reach under and catch this lip. Another lousy design feature of the ARB. ** See Note below

You need to buy one of these:
(see the bolt holding the "accessory"? this is what those tabs are designed for)

** Kudos to ARB, I just noticed this on their webpage:

Used one of these from ARB jack mounts on my Kaymar last year in DV when I blew a tire. Cruiserdrew had one he'd never used and we gave it a try. Worked just fine! Got one for myself as a result.

 

[Brentbba]

when if ever has e used a shackle???????????

E9999 got himself stuck in his own back yard!

 

[PKP80]

Ahh, thnx Jim...the bumper has no lip it's been tucked back flat and flush.

 

[e9999]

Mark, while one can reasonably argue as to the relative strength of the 80 tow loops vs hooks, for example, calling them tie downs and not acceptable for recovery seems rather extreme to me... there have been numerous reports of successful hard recoveries made with those, only 1 or 2 failures that I recall, and it seems that Toy would put those there for a good reason.

 

[Mark W]

They DID have a good reason. TIEDOWNS. For shipping across the oceans and for towing. As in securing on a flatbed. Toyota did not put those there in anticipation of strap recoveries.

As for "Numerous reports of hard recoveries", two replies:

One; there have been far more "numerous reports" of shackles used without being "properly aligned. If that is your standard, then why was this thread started?
Two; I have to challenge you statement on the facts. I have not seen, seen pictures of, heard reports of or otherwise been made aware of "numerous" '80 series being used in heavy mud situations or any other environment the leaves them heavily mired and resistant to movement. And I have not heard of "numerous" heavy duty snatch strap recoveries of same.

And what you (or I) may have heard people talk about doesn't change the facts anyway. That loop is not strong enough for snatch strap recoveries. Talk doesn't change material strenth. Whether you have heard of failures doesn't bear on that. And for that matter, how many do you need to hear about to believe them? 3? 4? 159?


As I've mentioned before, most '80s being wheeled are not used in these types of environments. Those that are tend to be pretty well equipped and upgraded and the owners tend to be very happy to use their toys. Winches come into play quick. As oppposed to those of use who back up and toss a strap as our first choice. A winch recovery and a snatch recovery are two completely different situations and have very different dynamics.

Have you ever seen a properly rigged 20,000 pound strap start to fray and shred during multiple full power yanks? Not cut from poor rigging, but actually pulled apart? Have you ever seen an OEM tow hook pulled straight open from a strap? (At least this only leaves the strap flying, not a heavy shackle on the end going with it.) It happens. BTDT. There is a LOT of stress involved in this type of recovery. If you hook a shackle onto that loop and start launching that hard on it with a strap, you are playing the odds. Not good ones either. Everyone here would scoff at someone who put a loop over a trailer ball and did that. Or who rigged a chain in line with their strap. Both of these are no more (and probably less) likely to fail than that loop. And when it does, your shackle is close enough in weight to the trailer ball to make no difference. I've seen shackles, D rings and even chain propelled THROUGH sheetmetal during a strap recovery when the mounting failed.

That loop can be used for most winch recoveries. It can certainly be used for it's intended purpose... To tie the rig down. If there's no better option, you could use it for a very light snatch. But there is no way in hell I would use it for a strong snatch and I would not allow anyone with my to use my gear or rig to do it either.


Mark...

 

[e9999]

come on, saying that the loops on an 80 are intended for tiedowns seems odd to me just based on the observation that the tiedowns on on-road vehicles and even on the 100 are obviously way flimsier than the loops on an 80, typically made just of thin stock. Anyway, there have been other threads on the loops with ample discussions of their suitability or lack thereof. The impression I got out of those what they were perfectly suitable for recovery, even snatch recovert, as long as there is no indication that they have been damaged by impact or suffer from a poor weld.


As far as the shackles are concerned, I'll gladly acknowledge -wannabe comedians here notwithstanding- that misalignment may not be a big issue if the shackle is plenty big (as mine are), but if it takes a second to put the washers on anyway, I'll do it, even if only to satisfy my sense of esthetics. If I ever have to use a marginal shackle, I'll make damn sure to center it... You guys do what you think is best!

 

[Mark W]

It doesn't look like I'm going to convince you.


The loops are heavier than some others you have seen. Unidintified people of various and indeterminate experience levels have not reached a concensus on the net.

That convinces you I guess?


That still leaves me with this question:

"One; there have been far more "numerous reports" of shackles used without being "properly aligned. If that is your standard, then why was this thread started?"


And I stand by this statement:

"Two; I have to challenge you statement on the facts. I have not seen, seen pictures of, heard reports of or otherwise been made aware of "numerous" '80 series being used in heavy mud situations or any other environment the leaves them heavily mired and resistant to movement. And I have not heard of "numerous" heavy duty snatch strap recoveries of same."


And this one:

"And what you (or I) may have heard people talk about doesn't change the facts anyway. That loop is not strong enough for snatch strap recoveries. Talk doesn't change material strenth. Whether you have heard of failures doesn't bear on that. And for that matter, how many do you need to hear about to believe them? 3? 4? 159?"



And this one:

"As I've mentioned before, most '80s being wheeled are not used in these types of environments. Those that are tend to be pretty well equipped and upgraded and the owners tend to be very happy to use their toys. Winches come into play quick. As oppposed to those of use who back up and toss a strap as our first choice. A winch recovery and a snatch recovery are two completely different situations and have very different dynamics."



And I re-ask this question too:

"Have you ever seen a properly rigged 20,000 pound strap start to fray and shred during multiple full power yanks? Not cut from poor rigging, but actually pulled apart? Have you ever seen an OEM tow hook pulled straight open from a strap? (At least this only leaves the strap flying, not a heavy shackle on the end going with it.) It happens. BTDT."


And this statement is still accurate:

"There is a LOT of stress involved in this type of recovery. If you hook a shackle onto that loop and start launching that hard on it with a strap, you are playing the odds. Not good ones either. Everyone here would scoff at someone who put a loop over a trailer ball and did that. Or who rigged a chain in line with their strap. Both of these are no more (and probably less) likely to fail than that loop."


What the heck, I'l restate this last one too:

"That loop can be used for most winch recoveries. It can certainly be used for it's intended purpose... To tie the rig down. If there's no better option, you could use it for a very light snatch. But there is no way in hell I would use it for a strong snatch and I would not allow anyone with my to use my gear or rig to do it either."


So basically my reply to your post is to repost mine in it's entirity. The questions stand as do the statements.

Whether it seems odd to you or not, regardless of any discussions on the net or any impression you formed from those discussions.


Seriously, you started this thread because crooked shackles concern you, but you have no concerns about snatching with these tiedown loops? Not to be too pointed about it, but I really was asking, have you ever yanked a strap to death? Or more impotantly, is your disagreement with my position based on personal experience with these type of recoveries and a personal understanding/witnessing of the stresses involved, or is it based on what you have gleamed from discussions on the net? This is not a slam, nor a smirch on you, just a sincere question.


Mark...

 

[Beowulf]

Mark,
Can you be more specific on your reasons that the 80 loops are not adequate for most recoveries.

Is the problem the type of metal used?
... or the size (diameter) of the metal used to form the loop?
... or the way the loop is welded to the flat mounting plate?
... or the size of the mounting plate?
... or the fasteners used to attach to the frame?
... or the frame mounting?
... or other things?

Can you give us examples of commercially available loops that you consider are adequate? (Pics or links if possible)

Can you give us examples of custom loops that you consider adequate?
(again... pics or links if possible)

And finally, if you are aware of specific instances where the 80 factory loops have failed then I would like to read the information available. I am aware of 2 reported "failures"; one was a loop that was discovered to have a crack in the weld (found before it was used for recovery though) and the other was a loop that failed BUT the owner admitted that the loop had been abused (banging it on rocks) and had not been checked before attachment of the recovery shackle. I don't do Pirate or the Hard Core section so maybe there have been other reports over there.

Thanks in advance,
-B-

 

[Mark W]

Look back at what I have said above. I don't consider them inadequate for "most" recoveries. Especially most recoveries that an '80 will be involved with (basd on how most '80s are used on the trails). I consider then inadequate for strong application of a snatch strap recovery. I've got no problem with seeing them used for a winch cable connection or even a gentle to moderate tug.


Primarily because of the size of the material, coupled with the shape of the loop and how it is attached to the base. Failure would be of the weld or of the loop irtself

I am not aware of any replacement loops to mount in that location. Best bet would be to look to the vendors who specialize in stuff for '80s. To be honest I doubt that I would spend any time looking for any though. I would not put much effort into fabbing something to go there either. I don't like recovery points on the underside of the frame. Too hard to get to when you really need them. (Look at Jim's rig in the picture further up in this thread.)

Much better to use an anchor point on the face or the top of one of the aftermarket bumpers that are available out there.

If I did make something to go there for someone who wanted a sturdy anchor point on a rig with a stock front end, it would probably be along the lines of a tab made from 1/2 inch thick plate with an extended base aganst the frame and gussets to offset the twisting that the pull will tend to subject it to. It would be a little bit of overkill at that thickness, but 3/8 eventually would be very likely to split or tear under an off center application of a snatch. Seen it.

You could also just put a hook there to replace the loop. Stronger and doesn't require a shackle. If it does fail it is most likely to straighten out and let the loop slip off without leaving any metal hardware connected to the strap. The next most common failure of a hook is for the hook itself to crack, but it will crack in the thinner cross section and the broken piece falls/is spun out as the strap yanks away, rather than flying out with it.

I don't wheel with '80s up here much. We have a couple of guys who have recently started running them but these '80s can't handle the tougher trails where the rigs get really stuck so those rigs don't go on those runs.
So I can't say that "I've seen this many of these loops fail under these conditions".

But I don't need to. I wheel with a lot of different rigs, both lighter duty and much heavier duty than the rigs in qustion and I've done a lot of recoveries with rigging both lighter and heavier than these loops. I've done just a little bit of fab work and have a fair to middlin' understanding of the strength of these materials and of the designs. I've seen anchor points fail and I've been able to examine why. I've built plenty that have not failed. I can apply all of those experiences and knowledge gained from them and be confident of my position that these loops are not a safe and reliable anchor point for vigorous snatch strap recoveries.


Mark...

 

[Beowulf]

I consider then inadequate for strong application of a snatch strap recovery.

Understood. That was the context that I should have used above rather than "most recoveries." You had already made it clear that for winch recoveries and mild tugs, they are OK.

Do you see any problem with the way they are bolted to the frame, the size/type of the bolts, or the location?

You mention that a hook is preferred over a loop (if used in this location) because the hook will straighten under extreme loads that might break the loop. Did I interpret this correctly?

If the loop were "strengthened" in some manner, would it be adequate for a snatch strap recovery?

-B-

 

[Mark W]

I don't see any problem with the way they are bolted to the frame. Not a lot different than how the hooks are connected.

And I also have to be careful to make my point without going overboard. The loop will take more than just a mild tug. Most average yanks will not be a problem. It's just the ones where the rig is really stuck and you have to push things closer to the limits where my concern comes in.

I mention the hook and it's failure mode mainly becasue of the lack of need for a shackle to secure the strap to a hook and bcause ig the hook does fail, it it less likely to send any steel along with the strap as it recoils.

I'm not sure you could effectively stregthen the loop. Less trouble to make a replacement along the lines of the "tab" I mentioned. Picture a heavier version of the tabs on an ARB bumper, mounted vertically off of the bottom face of the frame. Same place as the loop. With a suitable sized base to bolt the tab to the frame this should easily exceed the strength of the strap and even the bolts that mount it to the frame.


Mark...

 

[pismojim]

If I did make something to go there for someone who wanted a sturdy anchor point on a rig with a stock front end, it would probably be along the lines of a tab made from 1/2 inch thick plate...

Note: the use of the thicker 1/2 inch plate will require significantly fewer "centering washers" thus ensuring proper shackle angle. Cool.