Rubicon trail, cant we give it a break?

[jb welda]

i know this aint gonna make many friends around here but has it occurred to anyone else that the rubicon trail is being loved to death? i mean they closed spider lake because of human sh*t contamination and now they are liable to close the whole place. think about it: toilet paper all over the place, feces all over the shore, in camping spots, litter all over the place, just the worst parts of civilization encroaching into the wilderness all in the name of running machines up over granite; granite most of us have been over many times already.

its a great trail ive heard (never been there myself except hiking it a number of years ago) but i dont think i personally even want to go there. sounds like a freeway, a polluted freeway, and way too crowded for any quality time. besides we (collectively, im sure no one here litters or pollutes on purpose) are killing the place, littering, sh*tting in the woods, crushing up granite, polluting watershed and basically getting in each others way doing it.

i would like to see a 10 year or so moratorium on travelling the trail, let it get back to its natural state. there are other places to go. the rubicon is overused, over stressed and just plain being ruined by well meaning people. its gonna lead to everything being shut down to everyone everywhere.

i am probably the only one who thinks this but its what i think. i also think the "keep tahoe blue" people are wrong. let the civilized have tahoe and continue to wreck it; hold the line there and work to preserve the more pristine places in wyoming, montana, idaho, utah etc. tahoe is already gone, hold the line there!

anyway just a thought. got my flame retardant suit on so fire away. but when the forest service closes rubicon for good you cant say you werent warned and presented with an alternative.



one love
jah bill

 

[brew8]

More than enough wilderness in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho, enforcement of existing regulations and prudent use by off-roaders is what is needed. Hand out fines for those that s*** on the Rubicon. Cheers, Larry

 

[VETTE60]

The traffic and trash is not as bad as you think. 4th of july is stupid up there, but I avoid it at all costs then and any big weekend. mid-week it is actually great out there. also a lot of trail restoration and maintenance has been taking place over the years and it is much better (thanks FOTR, BRC, TL, Del)). also, CHP conducts sobriety checks at loon lake and the Sherriff is out on the trail patroling for open containers AND valid registration. Pretty funny seeing guys getting tickets in their "green stickered" rigs on the trail for not having brake lights. they are working on it...

There are certainly more challenging trails, but the 'Con is pretty spectacular. I just hope people don't piss that away as they have been in the past

BTW...no shots fired, I think you are on the right track about changing attitudes of people, but we must be leading examples ourselves.

 

[pmccumber]

I firmly believe that these areas that are being considered for closure should require permits and the process should entail signing something detailing the fines. The money garnered from the permitting could pay for enforcement.

If that isn't enough, like in some of the remote areas of Utah, require certified guides.

Some of these places are once in a lifetime type places and I'd hate to have them transition to none in a lifetime.

 

[Newps]

This is what happens when you close down access to all of the others trails. Everyone gets funneled in to a few trails and then you get the problems with over use. If the green movement had not closed access to all of our other trails we(off-roaders, campers, hikers, ATVs, equestrians) would be disbursed thought-out the forest trail system. You would not see this type of over use. As always we all need to wheel abiding to the tread lightly principles. This type of herding the masses into smaller and smaller areas will produce this kind of impact. It is a self fulfilling prophase for the greenies. Get everyone in to a smaller area and they show how we can impact it.

 

[LadyRed]

Funny, last time I was there over Memorial Day weekend I couldn't even find a gum wrapper and most people nowadays know to pack out their *stuff*. We gave out several spill kits and wag bags and continue to do so every weekend all on a volunteer basis. I was pleasantly surprised at how many people didn't even blink an eye when I gave them a wag bag.

Besides the law enforcement that is now very visible out there, there is also a volunteer trail patrol. They are able to get to any part of the trail and there are more and more Ham radio operators out there for faster communication.

It's different now and for the most part, if there is a screw up out there the perpetrators are slammed publicly and typically fess up.

In my opinion self policing is working. We don't need anymore government bureuacracy dictating what we can and can't do especially on a county road. We have enough of that shoved down our throats already.

 

[Rigger]

We don't need anymore government bureuacracy dictating what we can and can't do especially on a county road. We have enough of that shoved down our throats already.

Thanks, Lady x 1,000,000!! Our governments screw up the overwhelming majority of whatever they touch. We no longer have "of the people, by the people, for the people". What we have is government in spite of the people.

 

[Joshua993]

Greenies are bad, government is bad, and everyone should be able to what they want and police themselves, no matter the circumstances or the damage done. Right - because it has worked so well thus far...

 

[LadyRed]

Inherently people are good it's only the few that cause the problems for those that are 'good' in our chosen form of recreation.

Public awareness and education is the key. I was taught not to throw my gum wrapper out the window, etc., what happened to that value?

In turn I taught my son not to throw his **** out the window, seems to have worked! Big brother doesn't have to look over my shoulder and tell me what is right and wrong for my family or our family traditions and values.

It is my responsibility to do that and I take it very seriously. Just because there are a few, and I know they are out there, idiots that neglect their duties doesn't give our inept governing body the power or right to step into ALL of our lives and rein over my house, trail, public road or any other part of my life including my guns.

We don't need the government to teach us values, we need parents to teach them and America has simply given in to the babysitting, hand out entitlement giving government to "take care" of them and their children.

I do believe that self discipline and governance does and can work just as long as we don't have "beer drinkin billy butt crack" in the lead - get him out of there if he is!

In my opinion America really needs to wake up. It's not just on the trail, just look around...

okay, rant off

 

[Rigger]

Lady, that ain't a rant. That is good old American common sense, a commodity that is in short supply these days. Thanks for taking the time to post.

As far as "greenies" go, I don't dump my used motor oil on the ground, and I have a conservationist's love of God's earth, but I also happen to know that people like Al Gore are tyrants that will have us all in chains if we don't push back.

 

[peesalot]

Oh, it'll get a break

 

[LadyRed]

Lady, that ain't a rant. That is good old American common sense, a commodity that is in short supply these days. Thanks for taking the time to post.

As far as "greenies" go, I don't dump my used motor oil on the ground, and I have a conservationist's love of God's earth, but I also happen to know that people like Al Gore are tyrants that will have us all in chains if we don't push back.

Yes, Rigger I agree, common sense is in short supply.

All and all and in the end you can't beat the truth...kinda like the "Devil Went Down To Georgia" Love that one...

 

[High Desert]

Maybe the clubs and groups should start requiring users of these highly visited areas to pack their S*** out. All the major rivers that are rafted/paddled require you to pack it ALL out. Why not these popular 4X sites. Not much worse of an experience than stepping in somebody's shallow dug S*** hole...

With the new ways of handling waste it's no big deal anymore. Use to be all you did was poop in a plastic bag in a bucket, now it's treated and not so gross..All the major river outfitting supply companies handle the stuff. Most major hunting/camping catalogs have systems too.

 

[80t0ylc]

Inherently people are good it's only the few that cause the problems for those that are 'good' in our chosen form of recreation....

I'm sorry, I disagree with you here. People are not naturally 'good', it's something they are taught or, in a lot of cases today, not taught. And it should start at a very young age. (Ever read "Lord of the Flies")

....Public awareness and education is the key....

Again, I disagree. Proper parenting, which begins in the home, is the key. Public awareness and education is what the government is trying to control. We need to discipline our children and instill the right morals and values in them so they can survive in society and the public education system, which by itself, is failing.

....I was taught not to throw my gum wrapper out the window, etc., what happened to that value?....

It's a rare commodity today because parents aren't doing their job. A lot have the previous misconceptions or are just plain lazy. Children need and crave guidelines. The parents are responsible for this, not the government or education system. They need this information from a role model, not a peer.

....In turn I taught my son not to throw his **** out the window, seems to have worked! Big brother doesn't have to look over my shoulder and tell me what is right and wrong for my family or our family traditions and values.....

It is working for you, but too many kids today don't even have a conscience. You scold or try to discipline them and all of a sudden you are 'mean' or 'rude', because they have rarely, if ever, been disciplined. Their concept of right and wrong is: Does it feel good? or "Hey, I haven't been caught yet!"

.....It is my responsibility to do that and I take it very seriously. Just because there are a few, and I know they are out there, idiots that neglect their duties doesn't give our inept governing body the power or right to step into ALL of our lives and rein over my house, trail, public road or any other part of my life including my guns.

We don't need the government to teach us values, we need parents to teach them and America has simply given in to the babysitting, hand out entitlement giving government to "take care" of them and their children.

I do believe that self discipline and governance does and can work just as long as we don't have "beer drinkin billy butt crack" in the lead - get him out of there if he is!

In my opinion America really needs to wake up. It's not just on the trail, just look around...

okay, rant off

I agree with you on most of these points, but I'd like to add that the proper attitude would be that Wilderness, pristine areas, hiking and off road trails and the freedom to visit these are not a right, they are a privilege. Just the same as trust is not assumed, it's earned. If we have people that are destroying things in our cities, in front of witnesses, how can we trust them when they're out on their own? You're right when you say "It's not just on the trail...".

So what needs to be done? I believe that those of us that say there is no problem or that we don't need rules have their heads in the sand. And I don't like to suffer because of other people's lack of respect. Pristine and high traffic don't go together well, neither do freedom and lack of self discipline. Society is not the same today as it was when most of our parks and trails were conceived. How can you get away from it all when everyone else is trying to do the same thing? Look at what's been going on in Yosemite and Grand Canyon, and for years now! It wasn't always like that. These parks are accessible to 2WDs and buses. Is that the direction our trails are headed, where you need reservations or they are highway parking lots during visiting hours? It appears that the popular trails like the Rubicon are going to need some kind of management or they're going to literally be used to death.

The "beer drinking billie butt cracks" are obvious and need "guidance" but, we all need to "anny-up & kick in" every time we're out on trails and public lands to be at our best because we represent the Off Road community. If we can prove to the greenies and other watchdogs that we're capable to be trusted, we might be able to swing the pendulum the other way. My .02

 

[wapitidon]

80t0ylc you nailed it...well said. However your last sentence is very questionable. Not sure you can prove anything to the greenies. Don't know any that really listen.

 

[80t0ylc]

........However your last sentence is very questionable. Not sure you can prove anything to the greenies. Don't know any that really listen.

It's got to start somewhere. We have to take ownership of the problem when we're out there. We have to be responsible, we have to be reliable, we have to set a good example and not return evil for evil. You see some activity that's wrong, get license #s and take pictures if possible and contact the authorities ASAP. Keep your cool. Do NOT take matters in to your own hands. It's not your job and it puts you and everyone that's with you in jeopardy. Be the one that picks up & packs out more than you carry in. We can turn this around with patience and determination. It won't be overnight, but it needs to be done. We have to win, unless you want our trails and parks to look like landfills or have the access totally shut down.

 

[60fj25]

I’ve been an outdoors’ man since the early 70’s, so I’ve seen a lot. In the 80’s Yosemite’s’ Tuolumne Meadows was really a mess because the hikers didn’t want to walk through the mud so they made multiple paths through the meadows. Eight to ten inches deep, 12 or more inches wide and by my recollection 10 plus feet across.

The John Muir trail at Trail Crest had a tremendous problem in the late 70’s to mid 80’s due to people using every tree, rock, crevasse to use as a not so great pit toilet. Been there, seen that.

So don’t let anyone make you believe that you are the originators of this problem.

At this time many people grew up with camping or hunting families who thought that burying their garbage and waste in pit toilets was ok…. And it was at that time because there were very few out there. 20 people in an area over a season made little impact and problems disappeared. 200 or more people a week was more than an area could handle and practices of the past caused real problems.

The backpackers improved their standing in the same way as Stacy and Del are trying to do, by informing and self policing. Unfortunately the backpacking community also let the park service dictate use limits to many areas. I remember a stencil on a Colorado river boat “USPS – service, what a bull does to a cow”.

And yes, the Colorado River boaters have been taking out all of their waste since at least the 80’s and we should to. On the Colorado River the boaters took waste out before there were WAG bags. We have the means (space and technology) to do so and we should. I wonder how many back packers do. How many go from trail head to rustic camp (with toilets) and consider that “Wilderness”. How many just make a pit toilet? We won’t know because they aren’t talking.

So, back to the topic.

Support Stacey and Del. Self policing and Education can work.
Support the Law Enforcement people on the trail… Get the idiots who injure our sport off the trail.
Resist the urge to allow the bureaucracy to dictate how many people, groups, vehicles etc. can use a trail.
Clean up after yourself and others.
Educate those who you see who are buffoons
Confront, or document and turn in, those who are idiots.

We can, and have to, do it ourselves.

 

[DMS1]

They should create more trails so we can spread out a bit. Also, how do you know what you have posted is true if you have never been there?

 

[LadyRed]

Thank you 60fj25, those are great comments and words of wisdom that we all need to take into account.

 

[brew8]

I still don't want more wilderness in Montana, nice thoughts though, cheers, Larry