RTH: My brake MC makes me want to kill something

[deaddrift]

I have been struggling for the past hour to attach the rear hard brake line to the master cylinder. I cannot do this task. Struggling for hours with one minor fitting is absolutely maddening. Meanwhile I'm watching my bench bleed go away drop by drop.



I'm wondering if maybe the hard line nut that goes into the cylinder is too flared out to fit back in. It was hard to unscrew when I took out the old MC.



What is the trick here? Why on god's green earth are these lines hard lines to begin with? I am really wanting to get my truck back on the road and having this one piddly 10mm fitting stopping me is making me nuts!

 

[Burt88]

If the threads don't line up perfect you'll never get it on. Loosen the mounting bolts on the firewall so you can move the MC enough to line up the threads. Then tighten everything up. Had to do it this way on my clutch MC last weekend.

 

[deaddrift]

Thanks for the quick response! I tried loosening the MC from the firewall but I cannot get the 10mm brass line nut deep enough into the MC body to be able to catch; I get stopped from seating it in without any chance to engage the threads. There's still a few mm to go before the threads on the nut get to the threads on the MC, and I cannot close this gap. WTF?

 

[inkpot]

You could back out the front fitting and compare them. Or, you could file/grind the rear one down a wee bit. That will require some tricky cleanup. John

 

[TS888]

Maybe pull the seat fittings from the old MC and swap to the new MC. They fit before...

 

[deaddrift]

This rear line nut has been damaged by the PO. It is too flared out to fit back into the MC housing. My guess is that it was over torqued. The FSM lists a torque value of 11 ft.-lbs, not that I have any idea how you would measure torque on a nut that has a line sticking out of the back that prevents you from using a socket.

The front one fits in both receivers in the MC housing:



The rear one doesn't fit into either:



Gah!

I have started soaking the other end of the short hard line in penetrating lube, preparatory to removing it and replacing it. Question: can I replace it with a soft line? Because hard lines seem completely STUPID to me. Does anyone have the part number for this brake line, if I can't swap for flex line?

 

[deaddrift]

Maybe pull the seat fittings from the old MC and swap to the new MC. They fit before...

Had to swap out the core. Good idea though.

 

[TS888]

You can always make new hard lines. Get a flaring tool, and look for copper-nickel (Cunifer) line. It's not hard to make lines, I had to build a full set for my 110.

PS: Breath.

PPS: Drink.

 

[deaddrift]

You can always make new hard lines. Get a flaring tool, and look for copper-nickel (Cunifer) line. It's not hard to make lines, I had to build a full set for my 110.

PS: Breath.

PPS: Drink.

Is that a Defender 110 you mean? Sweet rig, only 500 in the US, right?

So I can make hard lines, but how? And more importantly, why? Why not use SS braided and lose the struggles with fitment? These exist, right? But anyway for new hard lines I need a flaring tool, new copper nickel lines, and also one or two nuts to replace one or both on the existing line. All of this is available at NAPA, maybe?

Yes, breathe... in through the nose, out through the mouth, in through the nose... out through the mouth...

And beer. Yes. Yes to beer. Good idea.

 

[inkpot]

This rear line nut has been damaged by the PO. It is too flared out to fit back into the MC housing. My guess is that it was over torqued. The FSM lists a torque value of 11 ft.-lbs, not that I have any idea how you would measure torque on a nut that has a line sticking out of the back that prevents you from using a socket.

The front one fits in both receivers in the MC housing:

View attachment 650267

The rear one doesn't fit into either:

View attachment 650268

Gah!

I have started soaking the other end of the short hard line in penetrating lube, preparatory to removing it and replacing it. Question: can I replace it with a soft line? Because hard lines seem completely STUPID to me. Does anyone have the part number for this brake line, if I can't swap for flex line?

Just file it down a bit. The edge of the nut does not make the seal. It just holds the hard line flair in the seat . I used a diamond wheel on a Dremel to fine/fit small stuff like this in the past. Reduce it down to the same size as the flair. John

 

[Zack1978]

Is that a Defender 110 you mean? Sweet rig, only 500 in the US, right?

So I can make hard lines, but how? And more importantly, why? Why not use SS braided and lose the struggles with fitment? These exist, right? But anyway for new hard lines I need a flaring tool, new copper nickel lines, and also one or two nuts to replace one or both on the existing line. All of this is available at NAPA, maybe?

Yes, breathe... in through the nose, out through the mouth, in through the nose... out through the mouth...

And beer. Yes. Yes to beer. Good idea.

I think you have no choice with respect to making the hard lines because they are NLA from Toyota. You could find a used hard line however......

Zack

 

[TS888]

Is that a Defender 110 you mean? Sweet rig, only 500 in the US, right?

Actually a 1984 RHD pre-Defender 110 (the Defender name wasn't used until about 1990), with the 300TDi drivetrain from a newer truck. I was living in the UK, bought a couple trucks and built one, which I imported to the US when I moved back. And as to the 500, well... LR officially imported 500 or so North American Spec (NAS) 110's, but there are thousands in the US now, between legal imports like mine, and the guys who bring in newer ones and VIN swap them to register as an older Series 2 or 3...

So I can make hard lines, but how? And more importantly, why? Why not use SS braided and lose the struggles with fitment? These exist, right? But anyway for new hard lines I need a flaring tool, new copper nickel lines, and also one or two nuts to replace one or both on the existing line. All of this is available at NAPA, maybe?

I suppose you could have SS lines built to replace the hard lines, but it will be $$. Making hard lines is easy and inexpensive. Get a flaring tool with the dies for the proper flare for the Toyota fittings. There are only about 3 different types of flare, so it should be pretty easy to find the right one.

NAPA may very well have the right flare nuts. As a matter of fact, NAPA sells pre-made flared brake lines, you might be able to buy lines in close to the right length, then all you have to do is bend them into shape.

 

[inkpot]

I think you have no choice with respect to making the hard lines because they are NLA from Toyota. You could find a used hard line however......

Zack

Last time I checked, metric brake lines were available from BAP. John

 

[deaddrift]

Just file it down a bit. The edge of the nut does not make the seal. It just holds the hard line flair in the seat . I used a diamond wheel on a Dremel to fine/fit small stuff like this in the past. Reduce it down to the same size as the flair. John

I followed this advice and it worked! Ground it down and finished with a wire wheel. Thanks John!



My truck has all four on the ground for the first time in a week and a half, and I just drove it around the block for the first time in over a month.

The axle sounds OK (which for those of you just tuning in is how I got into the brakes in the first place) but the brake pedal is not right yet. Way too much free play at the top before it engages the cylinders. I want to bed in the brakes properly so I went slow and mostly engine braked. I am so close but not quite there yet.

OK, so I wasn't able to bleed the rear because I couldn't free the bleeder valve, typical old and rusty fitting, and I was chomping at the bit to get her down on all fours again. I'll bleed these tonight or tomorrow. BUT, assuming that this doesn't change things, what else might I be needing to consider? Any tips are welcome. I am a total noob and can use all the advice I can get.

Cheers, mudders, couldn't have gotten this far, or even a quarter of the way really, without you guys

 

[deaddrift]

LR officially imported 500 or so North American Spec (NAS) 110's, but there are thousands in the US now, between legal imports like mine, and the guys who bring in newer ones and VIN swap them to register as an older Series 2 or 3...

Yeah, I figured maybe, considering I've seen four or five, it seemed like perhaps 500 wasn't quite the right number.

 

[langsen]

Hopefully everything is working right. But if your pedal still has too much free play after you bleed the whole system, then my guess would be that the pushrod between the brake booster and the master cylinder is out of adjustment. You did that part though, right?

 

[deaddrift]

Hopefully everything is working right. But if your pedal still has too much free play after you bleed the whole system, then my guess would be that the pushrod between the brake booster and the master cylinder is out of adjustment. You did that part though, right?

Um, nope

I was hoping the old setting would work because I don't have the SST and didn't know how to mimic it. Suggestions are more than welcome, how do I measure this with standard tools or some jerry-rigged setup?

 

[langsen]

I initially skipped the adjustment when I swapped my MC but it turned out that the new gasket between the MC and the booster was thicker than the old one, so the pedal had too much play. Had to pull off the MC and adjust the pushrod. Didn't have the SST, so I used a vernier caliper, a straight edge, and some math. There are probably easier ways to do it.

 

[samibattlemaiden]

there are a lot of things that FSM's call for SST's to do that don't require anything more than what is in a functional garage.

 

[ntsqd]

Looking at the SST in the illustration it wouldn't bee too hard for the average garage fabricator to make, but with care a dial or digital caliper can get you to the same place. Until that dimension is known to be good you really can't move on. You *may* be able to make these measurements without disconnecting the hardlines again.

My pedal, with the stock m/c and the 4rnnr calipers is soft. I wouldn't call it mushy, just soft. It's not very confidence inspiring, but safely simulate a panic stop and your impression of the brakes may change. Mine did.