Some landcruiser models/production-years are probably one way and some the other.
That's the case for the B-series engines anyway.
Rough running, then this morning, hard to start, then...
- Thread starter markthemenace
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Some landcruiser models/production-years are probably one way and some the other.
That's the case for the B-series engines anyway.
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- #42
That's what I thought!! I thought I noticed TWO lines going into my tank when I was under it all Christmas vacation painting over the rust. But...so what is the significance of that?
OK guys. My only experience with diesels is my Merc, so sorry to beat a dead horse, but in the Merc's there are vents (even though it does have a return) for the fuel tank and those vents are set to open up at something like 2 or 3 millibar. Apparently, if they don't open up, one would experience the same symptoms such as I had. That's why I thought it was that.
Anyway, so busy today again that I don't think I have the time to even look at the Cruiser...besides driving home tonight.
That's what I thought!! I thought I noticed TWO lines going into my tank when I was under it all Christmas vacation painting over the rust. But...so what is the significance of that?
OK guys. My only experience with diesels is my Merc, so sorry to beat a dead horse, but in the Merc's there are vents (even though it does have a return) for the fuel tank and those vents are set to open up at something like 2 or 3 millibar. Apparently, if they don't open up, one would experience the same symptoms such as I had. That's why I thought it was that.
Anyway, so busy today again that I don't think I have the time to even look at the Cruiser...besides driving home tonight.
I'm pretty ignorant about the fuel tank venting systems.
But when I remove my fuel cap on my BJ40 I regularly hear a bit of a "whoooosh sound" signifying that I've just broken a mild vacuum.
However it sounds like your vacuum is way more than "mild".
Perhaps you should run around for a while without the cap in place and with a rag stuffed into the filler neck instead and see if the problem disappears.
(Easy enough to do and it would rule out the "wrong/faulty fuel cap" possibility.)
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- #44
OK. I will do that. You had some comments in this thread too, where you said that if one could start the car quite easily without bleeding it, then there's no air in the system, which seems to bolster my theory that it is indeed a strong vacuum that's starving my IP of fuel, rather than air blocking up the injectors.
In fact, the fact that I could drive 40 km to work this morning should give some clues right? Can someone drive that far with air in the system? Mind you, it was smooth all the way. Then open the cap at work, BIG whoosh.
The fuel cap that I have is a metal one, that looks like it came with the Cruiser. Its tethered by a chain to the body.
In fact, the fact that I could drive 40 km to work this morning should give some clues right? Can someone drive that far with air in the system? Mind you, it was smooth all the way. Then open the cap at work, BIG whoosh.
The fuel cap that I have is a metal one, that looks like it came with the Cruiser. Its tethered by a chain to the body.
Hi Mark.
That statement I made (in that thread you've provided a link to) was based on my experience with my own BJ40 where the injector bleed line goes back into my fuel pump inlet. With this setup, cranking an engine alone (without providing an opening for the air to escape ... such as by "opening a bleed nipple" or "cracking a nut") can never purge out trapped air. So such an engine will not restart by cranking alone.
However the situation is different where the bleed line returns to the fuel tank. Here it may be possible to purge air by cranking alone.
(When the diesel vehicles at work run out of fuel the mechanics just add fuel to the tank and crank away for however long it takes for them to fire up. Under the same circumstances my BJ40 would NEVER fire up even if my battery and starter motor could last indefinitely.)
So back then (when I made that post) I think I probably thought all B-series and H-series engines were piped (fuel-wise) the same as mine.
I see the Toyota EPC does list different caps for diesel versus petrol fuel tanks.....Not sure what to conclude from that though.
Other causes for your problem could be muck in the tank (periodically blocking the fuel from exiting), fuel gelling (from cold weather or bacteria/microbes etc).
BTW - If there is no way for air to enter your tank to replace the fuel that fuel pump extracts - then I agree with you that your engine WILL inevitably shut down from lack of fuel. (Being a Landcruiser or Mercedes makes no difference here.).
And I'll go back now and reread this thread (and the one you've provided a link to) because I'm in dangerous territory by making this post without having studied it all properly.
(I'll edit it if I need to.)Ist edit/additions after rereading this thread:
I totally agree with replacing your primer pump. (Your old one leaks fuel They should NEVER leak fuel. And if you have a policy of "letting faults go unfixed simply because your cruiser (or mercedes) still runs OK" then I think you're on a slippery slope.
And I think the best way to see if your injector bleed line feeds back into your pump inlet (to recirculated trapped air) is to check/look in your engine bay. (I think "air entering your fuel line" could only be a possible cause if your return line goes all the way back to the tank. Because only then could your "restarting without purging" be explained".)
And I doubt anyone else here has to use both hands to remove their fuel cap ... which is key evidence for suggesting the "rag instead of cap" test. (But then again, less tank-vacuum will be beneficial if you have any sort of fuel-line-flow-restriction too. So if the rag makes the symptoms disappear, it still may not really be a "tank venting fault" ... and perhaps you have unusually weak hands LOL.)
And heck ... if you've never EVER changed your fuel filter DO IT IMMEDIATELY as that could be the cause in itself.
And BTW - My fuel cap has no obvious vent hole in it.
Now to re-read that linked thread.................
2nd edit:
Well ....I just reread that linked thread and I don't really have much to add here from doing so.
Except that I believe my BJ40 tank is vented through some weird system that I remember noticing during rust-treatment work a few years ago. If I remember correctly there's a bunch of tubes/pipes located behind a little cover that is accessed from outside the vehicle. It is in my RH-rear wheel-well just in front of that RH-rear wheel. So for all I know my fuel cap may have a "perfect seal" on my fuel filler neck (and yours could be the same).
And the "rag instead of cap test", if successful, doesn't necessarily prove the cap is faulty. It could mean that your "hidden venting system" is faulty or it could just mean you have a "fuel restriction fault" (and "less fuel tank vacuum" removes its symptoms).
I'm meandering a bit in this post I know.................... Can't help it I guess.
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Positive. I've replaced the fuel pickup in two tanks, both HJ60 Cdn market, and the pickup has a single 'straw'. The fuel return from the injector rail is to the feed pump.
Oh...it can do that? So what do you do? Diesel 911? Space heater? Geez, don't stop giving advice man, I'm sure it has nothing at all to do with it
Yep pretty nippy this morning....about -8 in my area I think. You're further east so slightly colder? Strange thing though, absolutely no frost to scrape at all...and I'm still in shorts
I added about a gallon of gasoline, filled the rest with diesel to dilute and thin the veggie, primed and was good to go.
Of course, I had to do this on both my HJ's.
Late start at work.
It would be easy to tell if vacuum in the tank starves your cruiser. After a long drive you can pull the fuel line feed to the feed pump and you'll hear a 'whoosh' if it is starved. This is what happened to me this morning when I couldn't draw fuel from the tank.
Just looked up the Toyota EPC and it seems the 2H in the HJ60 didn't run the injector bleed line back to the fuel tank till September 1987.
This is what the EPC shows for an HJ60 pre Sept 1987:
So as far as I can see a 1987 could be have the fuel return line run either way depending on build month.
PS. I looked at the GENERAL market but have no reason to suspect other markets were any different.
This is what the EPC shows for an HJ60 pre Sept 1987:
So as far as I can see a 1987 could be have the fuel return line run either way depending on build month.
PS. I looked at the GENERAL market but have no reason to suspect other markets were any different.
Thanks lostmarbles!
That is how my HJ60's are set up. I don't recall build month on my 87.
I do know that the HJ60 wasn't sold, nor any Toyota diesel, after 1987 model year in Canada.
That is how my HJ60's are set up. I don't recall build month on my 87.
I do know that the HJ60 wasn't sold, nor any Toyota diesel, after 1987 model year in Canada.
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- #51
All good info guys. Thanks! By the way, I still haven't found the time to do anything yet, but so far, haven't heard any complaints from the wife...and she's driving the kids all over today. I'll have to get her to drive it into the garage tonight for me to look at.
LM, I will change the fuel filter for sure. And yes, I hear you about the slippery slope and assure you that I don't take things lightly with either vehicle. Just to clarify though, the primer pump does not leak fuel unless it is in use. So on my merc, I've just left it alone, because well, I've hardly ever had need to prime the system! Even doing a diesel purge (which I recently did before aircare), in which I remove both the feed and return lines and place both into a bottle of Lubro-Moly Diesel Purge and run the dickens out of the engine, and then replace both primary and secondary fuel filters (there's an extra one before the primer pump), I've not had to use the primer pump. You can be certain that there's air in the line!
Kim, I'm going to pull the line you suggest as well, just to see what happens.
LM, I will change the fuel filter for sure. And yes, I hear you about the slippery slope and assure you that I don't take things lightly with either vehicle. Just to clarify though, the primer pump does not leak fuel unless it is in use. So on my merc, I've just left it alone, because well, I've hardly ever had need to prime the system! Even doing a diesel purge (which I recently did before aircare), in which I remove both the feed and return lines and place both into a bottle of Lubro-Moly Diesel Purge and run the dickens out of the engine, and then replace both primary and secondary fuel filters (there's an extra one before the primer pump), I've not had to use the primer pump. You can be certain that there's air in the line!
Kim, I'm going to pull the line you suggest as well, just to see what happens.
A while back I publicly criticised (through a thread here on ih8mud) a brand new (and not at all cheap/low-cost) primer pump I bought. It didn't leak diesel the first time I used it but spewed it out on every subsequent use. When I opened it up (and I did post pics) the seal was just one tiny O-ring so no wonder it leaked. Now I can only assume that vendor thought (and perhaps still does) that "leaking diesel during priming is OK so long so it doesn't do it when in the stowed position".
However I strongly disagree.
My OEM pump was a similar design to that one except it used a much better seal with actual "lips". (And I posted cut-open pics on MUD of that too). It lasted about 30 years before it leaked a drip during use!
The Bosch pump (with part numbers supplied in this thread) is very cheap, doesn't need to be "screwed down to stow", and has quality well-engineered seals that mean (in my opinion) it is likely to last a very long time before it ever starts leaking. And I now run one of these (which incidentally will fit your Mercedes too).
I suggest avoiding primer pumps where the manufacturer is either unknown or too embarrassed to put their name or logo on their product.
PS. Just thought I'd say all this to explain that you're obviously not alone if you think a primer pump that leaks during operation (and poses no other problems) is okay. My alternative view is just "an opinion" and able to be disgarded like anyone else's.
Edit:
Thanks Kim. Your post here made me think again about what I just said in my last post. The epc page I looked at then was this one:
It shows the August 87 cutoff date. So I just assumed from that date onwards the line went back to the tank (and it is silly to assume anything when reading the EPC).
So I looked up Sept 87 onwards just now and found this:
The bleed line still goes back to the fuel pump inlet through to Jan 1990 on the HJ60!
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This is just something I have noticed,
Which may or may not be logical, but I think it is.
If you have no problem from the lines all the way back to the tank, other words,everything is working properly, and you open the fuel line where it goes to feed pump, Diesel will flow and keep on flowing and will not stop.
I just replaced my fuel line all the way back to the tank on my hj60 and it is only a one like , no return line back to the tank , with a sedeminter or whever you call it in between.
So if that makes any sense you can trace back your line till you get a steady flow of diesel which will tell you your problem is ahead of that point.
Which may or may not be logical, but I think it is.
If you have no problem from the lines all the way back to the tank, other words,everything is working properly, and you open the fuel line where it goes to feed pump, Diesel will flow and keep on flowing and will not stop.
I just replaced my fuel line all the way back to the tank on my hj60 and it is only a one like , no return line back to the tank , with a sedeminter or whever you call it in between.
So if that makes any sense you can trace back your line till you get a steady flow of diesel which will tell you your problem is ahead of that point.
TLC Norway
woodwelder
I have read the whole thread now, so sorry if i double mention someting.
Let me just point out the things i'm certain of:
-If fuel leak out somewhere, air gets in. Likely same spot.
-Hand primer pump dries easily out, bad patent. But if you use it once every months, it lubes up. I always have a oem spare in the rig.
-Return line from injectors recirculate air as well as diesel. I've found bleeding the injection pump (on the 10mm nut on the side of the pump, below outlets) helps sort that out when running.
-The squid in the right rear quarter panel has several purposes. Handle the vauum issue on the tank, evaportations, keeping moisture out etc. Is easily gets clogged after 10-30 years of non service. Pull the whole thing out, clean both inside and outside, compressed air and some diesel should do the trick.
-With the diesel we have here, the fuel filters need change every autumn. Bad filters makes air problems worse...
Good luck!
EDIT: some pix. click them.
The squid /fuel evaporative separator:
Injection Pump, look at the 22107 Bleeder:
Let me just point out the things i'm certain of:
-If fuel leak out somewhere, air gets in. Likely same spot.
-Hand primer pump dries easily out, bad patent. But if you use it once every months, it lubes up. I always have a oem spare in the rig.
-Return line from injectors recirculate air as well as diesel. I've found bleeding the injection pump (on the 10mm nut on the side of the pump, below outlets) helps sort that out when running.
-The squid in the right rear quarter panel has several purposes. Handle the vauum issue on the tank, evaportations, keeping moisture out etc. Is easily gets clogged after 10-30 years of non service. Pull the whole thing out, clean both inside and outside, compressed air and some diesel should do the trick.
-With the diesel we have here, the fuel filters need change every autumn. Bad filters makes air problems worse...
Good luck!
EDIT: some pix. click them.
The squid /fuel evaporative separator:
Injection Pump, look at the 22107 Bleeder:
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- #55
Ok, thanks for the suggestions guys. It did it to me this afternoon, sputtered and died as I was trying to get into the freeway. Good thing I didn't just dive out!!
Anyway, same symptoms, open the fuel cap, big whoosh, start her up. And she starts right up again. I bought a new fuel cap. Has vents that when sucked in you could feel something give and air come in.
So anyway, get home and decide to change fuel filter and priming pump. First hiccup is, my largest stubby is 19 and it won't fit. Anyone with experience removing this could you please tell me what size wrench to buy/borrow? I don't think they even make crows foot wrenches this big! Feels like a 24 or 26!!
Anyway, same symptoms, open the fuel cap, big whoosh, start her up. And she starts right up again. I bought a new fuel cap. Has vents that when sucked in you could feel something give and air come in.
So anyway, get home and decide to change fuel filter and priming pump. First hiccup is, my largest stubby is 19 and it won't fit. Anyone with experience removing this could you please tell me what size wrench to buy/borrow? I don't think they even make crows foot wrenches this big! Feels like a 24 or 26!!
If it's leaking just use stilsons or vicegrips or whatever. Doesn't matter if you mutilate it because you won't be using it again Mark.
Another benefit of the Bosch pump (assuming you bought one) is that it only needs a 17mm spanner which makes access much easier:
AFAIK,all the 60 and 70 series landcruiser caps are like that.
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- #58
lostmarbles said:If it's leaking just use stilsons or vicegrips or whatever. Doesn't matter if you mutilate it because you won't be using it again Mark.
Another benefit of the Bosch pump (assuming you bought one) is that it only needs a 17mm spanner which makes access much easier:
Yes, I got a Bosch one. I was so happy when I found that it was a nice 17mm! The old one, geez, I really hate mutilating parts...I'm a pack rat and feel really bad about throwing this away. I'd much rather remove it, take it apart and change the o-ring that's probably what causes the leak
then I have a spare. Btw, I had a good look at my IP, and can't seem to find a return to the tank either. Can't figure it out, as I clearly seem to remember seeing two lines coming out parallel to each other, from the tank. It's too bloody wet to crawl under the Cruiser, but I'm going to have to maybe tomorrow, to put this one to rest once and for all!
Btw Norway, the 'squid' is a perfect description! Sadly though, on mine it's just a rusted tangle of metal tubes. I'm thinking of cutting it all out and cleaning it up. Damn...just so much rust :-(
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- #59
roscoFJ73 said:
Rosco, mine have had a vacuum so tight that I need two hands to open it. The new cap does also have a whoosh to it, but it's far and away a much smaller whoosh!! I feel l may have licked my vacuum problem. Need to drive the Cruiser more to be sure!
I'd like to fix the actual tank vent though, so if anyone has pictures it would be much appreciated.
Yes, I got a Bosch one. I was so happy when I found that it was a nice 17mm! The old one, geez, I really hate mutilating parts...I'm a pack rat and feel really bad about throwing this away. I'd much rather remove it, take it apart and change the o-ring that's probably what causes the leak
If your old one is like this one then I doubt you'll find any replacement seals available for it Mark: (The seal is far more sophisticated than just an O-ring, and I had to cut mine open with a hacksaw to even look inside.)
OEM fuel primer for 1979 BJ40:
The EPC now suggests to me (after studying it more closely than I did the first time) that you don't have a return line back to the tank at all.
I think the second line you see on your tank will be the one leading to your rusty SQUID. (I like that descriptive name too.
)Sounds to me like you may have nailed it then Mark (with your initial instincts being right on the ball)!
Vacuum in the tank is good IMO because it inhibits condensation from forming inside which in turn inhibits internal rust formation. I usually still have some vacuum left in my tank even after my vehicle has sat undriven for days on end.
However there must obviously be some mechanism for fresh air to enter and for all I know my cap plays its part with a vacuum-limiting feature too.
Exactly how are you testing your caps? (Maybe I can try testing mine?)
