Ride Quality: Suspension and tire questions (abdominal injuries)

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peripatew

peripatew

10 Year
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Threads
18
Messages
93
Location
SE Asia
Greetings!

I'm finishing up my hunt for an 80 here in SE Asia. My mechanic is hunting for a '97 in the best mechanical shape. I'll have a lot of work to do in baseline and PM, as well as some mods to get the vehicle ready for the jungle and the "roads" here. I have a few questions to help me choose upgrades to give the truck great ride quality.

Abdominal background: I've had numerous abdominal surgeries (cancer, appendectomy, splenectomy, and some fun exploratory stuff), so I feel the road in what seems a much more painful way that the average Jo with the majority of his insides. My most recent vehicle experience is with a 1 Gen Tacoma with a 2" Ironman Foam Cell lift (Performance springs and comfort shocks). It performed great offroad, but it is brutal on the roads here. Washboard and pothole city, the pavement is just as bad as the dirt roads.

So I'm trying to plan for a suspension upgrade and some new tires. I want to choose something that will give an overall great ride quality, or at least the best I can expect from a lifted 80 with my road challenges.

I've seen a lot of talk about OME, a little Ironman, and a few other options sprinkled in. It seems budget friendly lift is usually the first goal. And while that is important to me, I'm willing to invest some extra funds to help my insides not hate me.

SO, two questions:

Suspension: What suspension options would be the best to research? I know I need to match the springs to what mods I'm looking at, but I don't plan to go to extreme (sliders, bumper, light winch, and roof rack). Will investing more into shocks yield the biggest result in ride quality? Ironman Foam Cell Pro is easy to get here ($1100ish for a full Ironman setup), but I can get OME from a neighboring country. And anything else, I'll have to import from the US/Australia. Will spending $1500 or $2000 really yield a noticeable difference in ride quality? (Is there something else I'm missing that would help?)

Tires: How do tires impact ride quality? I know that riding with a lower PSI helps improve comfort, but what about 33's vs 35's for the same tire? (specifically 285/75/16 and 315/75/16) And then something like the KO2 vs. the KM2? I've been riding on 31" Geolander AT's, and they've done fine, but I've found myself needing something that can clear mud better when the monsoon season is here. Everything floods, and the roads turn to mush. Is sidewall height the biggest factor? Wide width a negative thing?

Thanks for the help! I'd be happy to provide more information if it would be helpful, and sorry for my noobishness!
 
I have a bad back and right shoulder, so I know what you mean in wanting to limit a harsh ride. What helps me is having support under my right arm. I installed a Tuffy positioned so it can act as an elbow rest. Not suspension related, but that sort of extra support may be useful to consider. Before I had the 80, I used a rolled up foam sleeping pad for such support, as it wedges easily between the front buckets. Just throwing that out there in case that would be of use to know.

Coil springs tend to be more sensitive to changes in weight than other spring systems. This also means they give a more widely varying ride height when loaded, which affects driveline angles as well as ride quality. So you want to aim for springs that are optimized for your usual load to start with.

Shocks tend to be where you can do the most good in mitigating unpleasant ride quality. Keep in mind that an off-road oriented shock, by design, tends to be relatively harsher than shocks designed primarily for on-road use. That sort of aggressive compression and rebound control is what can lead to discomfort for you.

My experience in the 80 is with Monroes (what the truck came with :meh:, not too impressive, but who knows how much mileage on them); the Toyota OEM Tokicos (what is IMO probably the best shock for a case like yours, but only available for stock and near stock ride heights); and the OME Nitro Sports (which can be rather harsh when hitting a hole, etc, but which are fairly reasonable otherwise and available for most lift heights.) So I don't know Ironman.

Also consider that 33" tires require no lift on an 80. People do report running 35" at near stock heights, but they can rub. It used to be that 33s were the largest commonly available tire in many parts of the world, although that's changing, so the need for any replacement tire should be kept in mind in case you ever find yourself needing one.

So I'd start with tires, because you will most likely want to lift to get 35s under you and that will limit the choice of shocks to mostly offroad-oriented ones that tend to harsher than the Tokicos. If you stay at stock height or thereabouts, then the Tokico works well (except for when you have a lot of weight up front.) While making no aspirations to racing, etc often seen in the marketing of aftermarket shocks, the Tokicos are designed for the 80 and give darn good performance for the price, on- or off-road. If you want something even softer, then try the LX450 version, although it'll likely have Lexus-style prices and may be a bit too road-oriented.

Moving onto tires, among the most useful characteristics of the 255/80 R16 "skinnies" is that ride quality and performance can be dialed in really well by varying the tire PSI. If you go with the BFG KM2 version, which is a 33" tire, it's a load range E tire. That means its capacity at max PSI (85 lbs IIRC) it far exceeds the 80 series GVW. That would give you a pretty harsh ride though. The good thing is that you don't need to be anywhere close to max PSI to run them, so PSI can be adjusted down to give you the ride you want. I typically run them around 40 PSi in town and adjust upward on long trips to save gas. They run and work just fine at this and even lower PSI. Other aspect ratios and/or lower load ratings (D or lower) probably don't give this wide range per PSI as the KM2 skinny does, but I'm a bit biased toward them based on good long term experience. Here's an often-cited article that goes into detail: Expeditions West: Tire Selection for Expedition Travel
 
^^^ great response there with main point being buy what matches your rig.
Ex. Light duty spring and d range if light, heavier springs and e range if loaded out
I didn't think my truck rode that harsh but I just added a set of drawers and it's like a Cadillac now.

Ever considered a suspension seat? Could be spendy or hard to source there, but never hear about them being uncomfortable. Just a thought
 
jfz80 said:
SNIP
Ever considered a suspension seat? Could be spendy or hard to source there, but never hear about them being uncomfortable. Just a thought
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Suspension seats generally require some space underneath to allow for the travel in the mechanism. I suspect the 80 seat sets too close to the floor for that. Good idea if this issue can be overcome., but I rather doubt there's anything available that will work, based on my experience working in a heavy truck garage, where every rig has one.
 
First thing that comes to mind on tires:

Forget maximizing the lifespan of the tire and just air those puppies down. The difference in ride softness between 25 and 35psi is night and day. From your description of those Asian roads, it doesn't sound like you'll be hitting 70mph on the freeway any time soon, so lower tire pressures shouldn't be much of a safety concern. Sure, the tire wont last as long, but it is a consumable part.

I'd say the tire construction probably factors into ride quality at least as much as sidewal height. Some 315's are deliberately overbuilt and will probably have a harsher ride than some 285s or 255s. I think it depends more on the particular make of the tire than the size--just my thoughts.
 
Heckraiser said:
SNIP

I'd say the tire construction probably factors into ride quality at least as much as sidewal height. Some 315's are deliberately overbuilt and will probably have a harsher ride than some 285s or 255s. I think it depends more on the particular make of the tire than the size--just my thoughts.
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To a certain degree, yes, the manufacturer's design does make some difference.

But there are several guides to at least a "rough" idea of how the tire will act.

First, radial tend toward a more compliant rides, while bias ply tires tend to be stiffer.

That's all things being equal.

Load range is a big factor. A tire designed for a heavier load will likely be stiffer in the sidewalls. However, if you run a E range tire at substantially less than max PSI, this usually helps a great deal if its a radial. If a bias ply, then the design tends to rely more on the stiff sidewall than PSI for support.

That's just my rough take on things. I'm not a tire engineer, so maybe someone could clarify things a bit more.

I agree that low PSI is going to help a lot with the OP's goals. I would be cautious about running at road speed at 25 PSI for extended distances, especially with a heavy load. 35 PSI is a lot less worrisome to me, but 30 PSI might be doable. There are usually charts available that tell you what the capacity is at lower PSI for heavy duty tires in load ranges D and E. The 255/85 R16 is rated at 3415 lbs at 80 PSI, so there's a lot of capacity still available at lower PSI.

EDIT: I dug around and found several tables, but not one specifically for the KM2. Toyo had a table that showed E rated tires and listed the minimum inflated pressure as 35 PSI, so there are limits onroad to how low you can go, likely due to heat build-up and we gotta remember the OP is in a pretty darn hot country much of the year. In any case, the Toyo chart showed capacity of a comparable tire at about 3900 lbs at 80 PSI, but down to a little over 2000 lbs at 35 PSI. The charts also indicated that a D rated tires could run down to 25 PSI, so if you really needed a lot of soft in your tires, that might be a better choice than an E rated tire.

It's also the case that running at higher speeds at low PSI means the possibility that a hit on an in-road object might cause the tire to lose its seal against the rim, even if the tire is otherwise undamaged.
 
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When I need a soft ride, I drive my wife's land rover. Air bag springs are very soft, in my experience. I have seen threads here in mud where other owners have installed airbags for springs. Just a thought... I know it feels like riding on air, no pun intended. Okay, pun intended.;)
 
izzyandsue said:
When I need a soft ride, I drive my wife's land rover. Air bag springs are very soft, in my experience. I have seen threads here in mud where other owners have installed airbags for springs. Just a thought... I know it feels like riding on air, no pun intended. Okay, pun intended.;)
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Yeah, that's why truckers like air bag suspensions.

But we have to be careful with comparisons here. On Rovers and Class 8 trucks, the air bag is the suspension. A few have converted 80 series to air bag suspension IIRC. However, most are talking about using the air bag as a supplement to the coil springs by placing airbags inside the coils. usually, this is just the rear coils but at least one person added them up front, too. In most of these apps, the air bag must be run at least partially inflated to avoid damage even when unloaded, something like 5 PSI IIRC. Add a little more and you may get cushioning effects but without the weight on them, this can quickly get to the point of no advantage or even undesirable performance.
 
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I suspect based on what he's mentioned so far that the techs he has available are considerably more shade tree than those two competent looking fellows.:hillbilly:

Looks like a good system and the "extensive testing" Australian-style is another mark in its favor.

I'm just a little leery of a full bag replacement in this application. They do fail, not often, but they do. On a semi-tractor, you've got some redundancy. Cap off the line to the failed one and limp home. On the 80, I don't know. We're talking extreme cases, but it the sort of vehicle people take to extremes.

If you simply supplement the coils with an airbag nestled inside, a failure still lets you get home with relatively little drama.

That said, it's rough stuff and special requirements for the OP. The price is reasonable, so this might be exactly what's needed. If it was me and I wanted to go this direction, having a spare bag might be a good idea. Even with FedEx, it's a long way from the parts depot, even if it's in Australia, which is more local to Cambodia than here. That way the local "techs" could take care of things without the truck being down for weeks in event of a failure.
 
I'd love an air ride system, but I am a bit nervous of them as they aren't local at all. I had one on the rear of a previous vehicle that worked great (coil assist type). I'd prefer a traditional coil/shock system, just trying to identify which one might work best for me.

I've got a friend of a friend running the Ironman Pro's that I'm going to try to take for a spin. It may be that the 80's ride quality in and of itself is much better than my Tacoma. I'm just not sure.
 
You bet, just offering options. I wouldn't do it myself, one of the many reasons why I bought my 80 and not an LR3 recently (pretty close in price). I run Ironman performance springs and foam cell pros shocks and stabilizer, about 2.5 in increase. These are the medium ironman springs, so to speak, they do have softer ones. I find the ride to be great, but roads are smooth down my way. The air ride eats washboard roads though, it's amazing. But a failure will make it feel like an horse drawn buckboard wagon, even with the long bump stops.
 
If you were uncomfortable in an IFS truck one the road I don't think you'll find the 80 series better with its SFA. You may want to move up a year into the 100. Then spend all you can afford on shocks. I guess the other thing to consider would be swapping in a suspension seat.

A larger and heavier tire will only make the suspension work harder. An AT tire will be smoother on the street for sure in any size.
 
Corbet said:
If you were uncomfortable in an IFS truck one the road I don't think you'll find the 80 series better with its SFA. You may want to move up a year into the 100. Then spend all you can afford on shocks. I guess the other thing to consider would be swapping in a suspension seat.

A larger and heavier tire will only make the suspension work harder. An AT tire will be smoother on the street for sure in any size.
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I'm considering 100's (though also looking for 105's, which is the same as the 80 axelwise and I'm assuming road comfort wise?) But the price bump is nearly double where I am at to go from a 97 (~$9000) to a 98 (~$17000). Which kills most of my budget. I'm heading out tomorrow to test drive an 80,100,105 and see how they feel. I drove an 80 a few days ago, but it's suspension was loooooong gone. Felt like I was driving an old caddy. :D
 
peripatew said:
SNIP I drove an 80 a few days ago, but it's suspension was loooooong gone. Felt like I was driving an old caddy. :D
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Keep in mind that if it was on the original coils, they probably lost that "factory fresh" feeling long ago. Coils age performance-wise much more than other spring types. That's one reason a lot of folks go with 861/862 in the first place. The factory coils have now been discontinued recently, too, so that will no longer be an option, although perhaps that's just a US part supply issue? So a set of 861/862 will likely considerably improve the ride of most 80 series you test drive unless you know for a fact the suspension has been "freshened."

Note that this is aside from whatever aging issues the shocks have on the particular vehicle your looking over.
 
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I'm planning on a 2-3" lift, as I need the extra clearance for the roads here, specifically the jungle. So I plan on replacing coils and shocks relatively soon. As I read back through my original post, I left that detail out. Sorry everyone!

With that detail in mind, what suspension systems would give the best ride for $1500? I know I need to dial in my needs for mods to account for proper weight, but should I look into Fox/King/Icon shocks?
 
Yeah, you're going to need some sort of progressive rate coils for a lift to give you what you want. I suspect that the off-the-shelf off-road shocks are not going to get you where you want to be, so looking into a quality custom-valved or adjustable shock may be your next step.

The problem is that what you want and what's generally dialed in as the settings on off-road shocks tend to be at opposite ends of the spectrum, simply by the nature of what off-road shocks typically do. They react quickly and firmly to dampen inputs. You may want to inquire with the Fox/Ikon folks as the next step to see what they suggest.

You'll likely find they may have recommendations on which coils will best work together with their shocks to produce the desired ride qualities.
 
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