Recovery Damper
- Thread starter CELICA XX
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I think what the wire rope will do, when it breaks, is dependant on how stressed it was. If the cable was defective though damage, misuse, corrosion or whatever and did not reach it's rated strength, then chances are that the break would be rather mild. But, if the wire rope was in good shape and the pull was such that the rating of the cable was exceeded at the time it breaks, you're going to have different results when it comes apart and I believe this is the kind of break that some have witnessed or experienced and is more violent. Not as violent as having a mounting point fail, as has been previously mentioned, but still capable of life changing or lethal results on a human's body. Needless to say, you can't be too safe when using a winch. A stategically placed "recovery damper" would not hurt your winching efforts.
Mark W
Yep, I really don't really care that much I guess.
Nope.
Mark...
Mark...
What is this based on? Your experiences so far? From reading some of your posts, sounds like maybe you do have some experience. I sure hope it doesn't end tragically.
Granted, synthetic line breaking is more violent due to the stored energy. But, read down through the comments on the "Mythbusters" link from post # 20. All kinds of experiences with both synthetic and wire rope. If you want to put yourself in harm's way, that's fine. For me, if I'm going to err when I'm winching, I'll err on the side of safety.
Or more to the point: I think it's irresponsible, as an experienced operator, to discourage common safety practices when inexperienced people are questioning what they are based on, even if you think they are unnecessary.
Edit: 1 last thought. If you have a "recovery damper" installed near the end of the rope, it would also help to lessen the effects of a mount breaking.
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You know, his 'Nope' could have been in response to your last sentence.
I'm sorry, Spike. I don't follow. I took his short reply as total disagreement of anything I said. But, no matter. We're just batting around opinions. Mark sounds like he's got some good experience. I just feel strongly about encouraging caution when winching. Mistakes in this area can be costly in $ and (human) body parts.
I took his short reply as total disagreement of anything I said. But, no matter. We're just batting around opinions. Mark sounds like he's got some good experience. I just feel strongly about encouraging caution when winching. Mistakes in this area can be costly in $ and (human) body parts.
I had to reread it to and look at your last sentence too. Nope, it won't hurt to have it there.
I was actually thinking along the same lines as you were, maybe there is only 1 time out of 1000 that the mounting point snaps, or the cable breaks in a way that would hurt someone. But, is it worth doing for that 1 time out of 1000? I've driven to work a couple thousands times. I might only be in an accident 1 out of 100,000 times I go to work. I still put my seatbelt on every day just for that 1 in a 100,000 shot.
The more you're around people that have been hurt doing something you've gotton away with 1,000 times, like my friend who's blind in 1 eye from not wearing safety glasses cutting tile, the more you're willing to make sure the hood is up when winching, make sure you're out of the path, and maybe throw a winching weight over a winch line.
Course, maybe I need to learn to talk less and be more succint like Mark. Nope.
More violent compared to......
Mark W
Yep, I really don't really care that much I guess.
My "nope" was for the hypothesis that somehow a cable would react differently if it was in perfect condition or if it was weakened. Other than breaking at a lower level of stress it would react the same. Although if you were foolish enough to use a cable that was cut through to a significant degree, when it failed there would be less unraveling as it let go and to some degree it would actually slow itself LESS as it broke. Of course it would also break at a much lighter load so it would most likely be pretty much a wash either way. It would still be a cable snaking a bit as it fell to the ground and any flail effect would still have little mass behind it.
Edit: Also saying nope to the idea that you are hanging onto that a breaking cable will by itself be able to severely injure/kill you.
I just posted "nope" because I am tired of trying to explain to guys that are hanging on to the myths no matter what and not wanting to listen to people who have real world experience.
You may be "batting around opinions". But speak for yourself, not me. I am relaying what I have seen and dealt with in the field... the real world, not the web.
As to the comment about synthetic line storing more energy than steel? Again, Nope. Even aside from the real world, all you have to do is read all the chatter on the net to find out that modern synthetic line stores less energy than steel and with less mass it is even less capable of causing damage. Assuming of course you have never been around it to see this for yourself.
As to whether using a damper on a winch line is a good idea... brace yourself folks... I have not stated otherwise so chill out with the "Mr. Safety Bear" routines. I have been addressing the fact that a CABLE break is not the buggabo that so many people think it is. As I have stated here, a snapped mounting point can send a massive chunk flying quite fast. The cable is being pulled along behind it as it flies and is actually working to slow it down. So yes, a jacket or other unaerodynamic object tossed over the cable at the "hook end" is not a bad idea at all. Hanging it a few feet forward of the winch as pictured at the beginning of the thread is pretty pointless.
As to the insinuation I am discouraging newbies from being safe...
My first response that came to mind was "FU".
But instead I will point out that I have not been discouraging anyone from anything. I have pointed out that cable breaks in the uses that we see in our offroad activities almost never create a cable that is a hazard. I would say "never" but I am not going to claim to have been present at the scene of every cable that has ever snapped in all of history.
Pretty sure I even alluded to the hazards of uninformed or stupid actions in one post already. and to the hazards of the failure of other components in another post.
I have not discouraged or encouraged anyone to do anything here. But if you are going to lay responsibility for your safety at my feet due to an internet discussion... Then I am gonna encourage you to stay home with the doors locked and have your meals delivered... just to be safe ya know.
Believe me or not.... Doesn't matter really. I offer no advice and I will not be upset if you chose to believe that your winch cable can cut you in half if you do not have a neato cool ARB Winch Cable Damper as part of your "I'm a real off roader" gear.
Toss a damper on your cable at the hook end and be happy. But find something better that that little pouch.
As to reading the comments on a mythbusters thread... why? Is there any way to verify anything that is said there... any way to verify that what may be related there actually happened at all? Much less happened the way that any one who relayed the story says it did? Even if they are being honest (A premise that I am more than willing to accept) how do we know that their conclusions as to the hows and whys are accurate?
Chat type of discussions on the net... stories relayed through multiple sources with no way to document or verify the credibility and no empirical data that can be used to support it... Fine and well to use this sort of stuff to form a hypothesis but it does not and cannot outweigh hands on knowledge.
I have had a few cables fail over the years. I have seen others have cable failures. I have yet to see one which was "violent". I have yet to speak to anyone who has first hand seen a cable that broke and did damage. (Make sure you are talking about a cable breaking and doing damage, and not a mounting point or other rigging components before you toss out a story to argue against my point.)
Okay... gotta go... I have wrenching I need to get back to.
Mark...
Edit: Also saying nope to the idea that you are hanging onto that a breaking cable will by itself be able to severely injure/kill you.
I just posted "nope" because I am tired of trying to explain to guys that are hanging on to the myths no matter what and not wanting to listen to people who have real world experience.
You may be "batting around opinions". But speak for yourself, not me. I am relaying what I have seen and dealt with in the field... the real world, not the web.
As to the comment about synthetic line storing more energy than steel? Again, Nope. Even aside from the real world, all you have to do is read all the chatter on the net to find out that modern synthetic line stores less energy than steel and with less mass it is even less capable of causing damage. Assuming of course you have never been around it to see this for yourself.
As to whether using a damper on a winch line is a good idea... brace yourself folks... I have not stated otherwise so chill out with the "Mr. Safety Bear" routines. I have been addressing the fact that a CABLE break is not the buggabo that so many people think it is. As I have stated here, a snapped mounting point can send a massive chunk flying quite fast. The cable is being pulled along behind it as it flies and is actually working to slow it down. So yes, a jacket or other unaerodynamic object tossed over the cable at the "hook end" is not a bad idea at all. Hanging it a few feet forward of the winch as pictured at the beginning of the thread is pretty pointless.
As to the insinuation I am discouraging newbies from being safe...
My first response that came to mind was "FU".
But instead I will point out that I have not been discouraging anyone from anything. I have pointed out that cable breaks in the uses that we see in our offroad activities almost never create a cable that is a hazard. I would say "never" but I am not going to claim to have been present at the scene of every cable that has ever snapped in all of history.
Pretty sure I even alluded to the hazards of uninformed or stupid actions in one post already. and to the hazards of the failure of other components in another post.
I have not discouraged or encouraged anyone to do anything here. But if you are going to lay responsibility for your safety at my feet due to an internet discussion... Then I am gonna encourage you to stay home with the doors locked and have your meals delivered... just to be safe ya know.
Believe me or not.... Doesn't matter really. I offer no advice and I will not be upset if you chose to believe that your winch cable can cut you in half if you do not have a neato cool ARB Winch Cable Damper as part of your "I'm a real off roader" gear.
Toss a damper on your cable at the hook end and be happy. But find something better that that little pouch.
As to reading the comments on a mythbusters thread... why? Is there any way to verify anything that is said there... any way to verify that what may be related there actually happened at all? Much less happened the way that any one who relayed the story says it did? Even if they are being honest (A premise that I am more than willing to accept) how do we know that their conclusions as to the hows and whys are accurate?
Chat type of discussions on the net... stories relayed through multiple sources with no way to document or verify the credibility and no empirical data that can be used to support it... Fine and well to use this sort of stuff to form a hypothesis but it does not and cannot outweigh hands on knowledge.
I have had a few cables fail over the years. I have seen others have cable failures. I have yet to see one which was "violent". I have yet to speak to anyone who has first hand seen a cable that broke and did damage. (Make sure you are talking about a cable breaking and doing damage, and not a mounting point or other rigging components before you toss out a story to argue against my point.)
Okay... gotta go... I have wrenching I need to get back to.
Mark...
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That's why I brought up the mounting point, it was my understanding that is a bigger risk.
When I found the ramsey video (very 1970's isn't it?) - and the other link, I thought, well, jeeze, I'd love to see a winch line snap violently, and you'd think there would be dozens on youtube - I mean - there's dozens of everything on youtube - and I did find alot of snapped cables. Some that just seemed to fall. Some that were used incorrectly as snatch straps and broke, and some that had hooks or other mounting points flying. No snapped cables that scared me greatly. Still, if it helps direct a flying mounting point downward, and it's recomended by the winch manufactures, why not eh?
YouTube - Dyneema rope VS steel rope - strength test - break test
Wire rope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOA_fPSAufo
Both will recoil... But syn. line has less mass coming at you than steel.
Wire rope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOA_fPSAufo
Both will recoil... But syn. line has less mass coming at you than steel.
that second vid though has a loop and a mass at the end of it.
Looked to me like it failed just below collar leaving the collar and eye attached to the anchor point. What ended up on the other end of the test bed was all the wire rope.
No different than a winch line with an eye and hook on the end of it.
Mark W
Yep, I really don't really care that much I guess.
A winch line with an eye and hook on the end, recoiling after the attachment point fails is a completely different thing than a cable failing and recoiling by itself from the break point.
From what I saw of that second vid, the piece that flew with the cable was not a significant mass. Would have been enough to increase the whack at close range, but it probably would not have added to the carrying force of the cable very much.
Mark...
From what I saw of that second vid, the piece that flew with the cable was not a significant mass. Would have been enough to increase the whack at close range, but it probably would not have added to the carrying force of the cable very much.
Mark...
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Granted if the hook and recovery point follow the line, it's an entire different story. But there is less mass with a synthetic line whatever remains on the end compared to wire rope. So the effects of what happens when it reaches the point where it stops will be diminished.
There was no piece the flew with the cable. The point of the vid was to imagine all that wire rope coming at you compared to the 4 pounds of 100' synthetic rope coming at you. Both will recoil but syn rope will cause less damage.
I personally don't have a dog in the hunt. Use what you are comfortable with. But wire rope will come back at you with more force than syn rope. You can't beat physics.
rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
If this were the only consideration when deciding between synthetic and steel it might make a difference. However I've been pretty much convinced that overall steel has the advantage over synthetic.
Southeast Overland
Get lost! Go explore!
Are you worried about abrasion resistance?
Mark W
Yep, I really don't really care that much I guess.
No question but that synthetic will have less mass to toss around when it breaks.
I also like the fact that you can easily toss a synthetic line to someone, just like tossing any other rope. The is real handy when extracting in a situation where walking back and forth dragging a winch line is more of a problem (in a river or even in a really nasty bog. You can usually fit more of a given diameter line on a winch when using synthetic too. and it will not damage itself if it lays down on the drum sloppily the way steel can. It is generally significantly stronger (when new) than steel.
But.... in use in the field, under real world use conditions, synthetic takes more abuse and wear and tear than steel. Personally I have not formed an opinion over whether this offsets the advantages or not.
Eventually my spool of steel cable will run out and I will have to decide if I want to buy synthetic or not. Or I will get my big PTO installed on my project and roll it out of the shop and be looking to load it up with a stupid long piece of cable and probably buy about 700 feet of 5/16 synthetic then.
Mark...
I also like the fact that you can easily toss a synthetic line to someone, just like tossing any other rope. The is real handy when extracting in a situation where walking back and forth dragging a winch line is more of a problem (in a river or even in a really nasty bog. You can usually fit more of a given diameter line on a winch when using synthetic too. and it will not damage itself if it lays down on the drum sloppily the way steel can. It is generally significantly stronger (when new) than steel.
But.... in use in the field, under real world use conditions, synthetic takes more abuse and wear and tear than steel. Personally I have not formed an opinion over whether this offsets the advantages or not.
Eventually my spool of steel cable will run out and I will have to decide if I want to buy synthetic or not. Or I will get my big PTO installed on my project and roll it out of the shop and be looking to load it up with a stupid long piece of cable and probably buy about 700 feet of 5/16 synthetic then.
Mark...