Rebuilt 2H first start up issue

[duncanrm]

Diagnosis confirmation please.. Long story.. sorry..

Today I started a rebuilt 2H engine for the first time.. it was professionally rebuilt by Southcott in Adelaide.. but quite some time ago.. maybe as much as 10 years.. The Injection Pump had also been rebuilt. The engine has not been started since its rebuild.

Prior to starting this engine I had some issues with the Fuel Control lever not going into the stop position.. you can see a video of that here..



I found that with a lot of force the arm did eventually move to the stop position. It still feels a bit stiff and does not automatically return to the RUN position when released..

So today I got the fuel system bled and the engine actually running.. but it was producing HUGE clouds of white smoke.. I let it run for a 30 seconds or so and then tried to shut it off with the fuel control lever, but it wouldn't stop. I cracked the injector lines and it stopped.

After stopping the engine I removed the glow plugs and confirmed that even with the Fuel Control Lever in the STOP position the injectors were still firing when it was cranked...

I am 99% certain the control rack in the injector pump is stuck - gummed up maybe.. I dont think anything else explains the clouds of white smoke, the inability to stop the engine, and the injectors still firing with the fuel control arm in the STOP position..

On a positive note, oil pressure was good, there was no metal on metal sounds, no oil leaks, no coolant leaks..

My plan at this point is to transfer the known good injection pump from my old engine to the new engine and then take a look at the potentially faulty pump when my cruiser is back on the road.. compression also looked good until my cheapo compression guage blew a seal on the second cylinder - cheap tools.. they never pay.

Is there an alternative diagnosis that would explain the above?

 

[lostmarbles]

Hi Duncan

Your suspicion that the rack is stuck towards the max-fuel end of its travel sounds likely to me.

And sad to say, on top of that I think you've probably bent the stop lever inside the governor when you forced the external "stop-run-start lever" into the stop position..

(I've got a spare B-engine stored in my garage and I've made sure it's fuel system is full of fresh diesel and sealed completely from the atmosphere in an effort to stop the contained diesel from turning to gum and/or breeding microbes.)

 

[duncanrm]

Thanks @lostmarbles for your reply.. much appreciated.

I'm disappointed.. but not suprised.. I will transfer my old injection pump and then take the opportunity to strip down the rebuilt pump at my leisure.. a good learning opportunity. Second hand parts are cheap.. I wil pick up a second hand pump to get the stop lever if I have bent it..

I've never swapped an injection pump.. would I be correct in assuming that if I put both engines to top dead centre on #1 and then do the pump swap I should be OK?

 

[lostmarbles]

...I've never swapped an injection pump..

Neither have I..

Watrob springs to mind as being someone who may know all about this..

 

[kim]

Thanks @lostmarbles for your reply.. much appreciated.

I'm disappointed.. but not suprised.. I will transfer my old injection pump and then take the opportunity to strip down the rebuilt pump at my leisure.. a good learning opportunity. Second hand parts are cheap.. I wil pick up a second hand pump to get the stop lever if I have bent it..

I've never swapped an injection pump.. would I be correct in assuming that if I put both engines to top dead centre on #1 and then do the pump swap I should be OK?

Not safe as it is easy to move the gear rotation by one tooth. You need to pull the timing cover to ensure you get the correct alignment. I swapped injection pumps on my 2H by doing this.

NOTE: this photo shows INCORRECT pump timing as it is ONE tooth out of proper time as per the relative location of all the factory timing numbers. As a non-mechanic, this messed with my brain. The two idler gear numbers will only align with the crank, cam and pump numbers on factory install and never again.

 

[duncanrm]

Not safe as it is easy to move the gear rotation by one tooth. You need to pull the timing cover to ensure you get the correct alignment. I swapped injection pumps on my 2H by doing this.

NOTE: this photo shows INCORRECT pump timing as it is ONE tooth out of proper time as per the relative location of all the factory timing numbers. As a non-mechanic, this messed with my brain. The two idler gear numbers will only align with the crank, cam and pump numbers on factory install and never again.

Ah.. OK thanks.. I dont have a gasket for the timing cover.. I guess I could silicon it.

Its still not entirely clear to me.. the Injector pump doesnt have any numbered gears on it does it? Its just a very small splined shaft.. Would the pump "crankshaft" have to be preset at a certain point prior to installation?

With all of those gears shown in your photo aligned correctly what is to stop an injector pump being installed with its small splined shaft at any random location?

 

[lostmarbles]

I found Watrob's thread that I was thinking about ....

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/re-install-ip-on-a-12ht.799469/#post-9121773

I know he was working on a 12HT but doesn't he say this method can be used for a 2H as well (to avoid removing the timing cover)?

 

[duncanrm]

I found Watrob's thread that I was thinking about ....

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/re-install-ip-on-a-12ht.799469/#post-9121773

I know he was working on a 12HT but doesn't he say this method can be used for a 2H as well (to avoid removing the timing cover)?

Many thanks.. that was an interesting read!

I dont seem to have the inspection hole he is referring to.. I will keep researching..

 

[duncanrm]

@watrob any input? please?

 

[duncanrm]

Ok.. this image makes things a little clearer.. the CENTRE of the Automatic Timer assembly drives the pump.. and the internal drive of the Automatic Timer is keyed.. which means the pump has to be set at a specific point of rotation to insert into the Automatic Timer.. provided all of the timing gear are installed correctly then the pump can be removed and reinstalled by realigning the key on the input shaft of the pump to the drive on the centre of the Automatic Timer. This seems to make a great deal of sense..

And the 2H/12HT repair manual doesnt describe any specific timing considerations when reintalling the Injection Pump.. its almost certain that the key on the input shaft aligns the pump to the Automatic Timer mechanism on the Timing Gear..

The repair manual does seem to indicate that the Automatic Timer is not removed when the pump is removed.. leaving its timing intact..

I could be wrong.. I will update this thread as I figure things out more..

EDIT...

On the other hand.. this thread:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/2h-injection-pump-removal.563235/

Seems to indicate that the timing mechanism comes off with the pump.. worst case scenario is that the timing cover has to come off to ensure tooth alignment (as suggested earlier in this thread)..

Either way.. I'm feeling comfortable about it.. a gasket for the timing case would be nice

 

[lostmarbles]

Many thanks.. that was an interesting read!

I dont seem to have the inspection hole he is referring to..

Yes. I forgot to say yesterday that I believe the inspection hole is present only in later-model 2H engines. (In fact I think I recall Watrob saying that this plug was a way he uses to distinguish late-model from early model 2H.)

So, with an earlier 2H I suspect you have no choice but to remove the timing cover and realign everything using the timing gear markings with No.1 piston at TDC on a compression cycle...Edit later ... Second thoughts ...No... I think you can indeed remove and replace the IP on earlier engines by getting the pointer aligned with the correct mark on your crankshaft pulley (on No.1 cylinder's compression stroke) and inserting your IP with the markings on its spline and mounting flange aligned.

I'll see if I can figure out how to "tag Watrob" to prompt him to look at this thread...Maybe I just type @watrob .... (Yep. That seems to work Edit... But a pointless exercise because I see you've already beat me to it Duncan... LOL)

 

[duncanrm]

Yes. I forgot to say yesterday that I believe the inspection hole is present only in later-model 2H engines. (In fact I think I recall Watrob saying that this plug was a way he uses to distinguish late-model from early model 2H.)

So, with an earlier 2H I suspect you have no choice but to remove the timing cover and realign everything using the timing gear markings with No.1 piston at TDC on a compression cycle...

Gotcha.. That explains it. I have seen that "bolt head" on the timing covers of the later 2H's so its now nice to know what it is (visible in these photos that someone has previously posted - http://imgur.com/a/3ZNaX).

Thanks Mate.

 

[duncanrm]

Well.. great news..

Today I pulled off the Injection Pump diaphragm cover and, with some difficulty, removed the diaphragm.. the rack was definitely stuck quite far forward.. could not move it at all.. had to reach through and disassemble the shaft that the diaphragm rides on to get it out..

With the diaphragm removed we can see that the rack will not move:



After a few taps on the rack with a brass drift it moved and I could grab it and exercise it a little.. a bit of oil on the shaft and lots of back and forth movement to free it of gunk it seemed to be moving quite freely.. Reassembled the injection pump..

and..

Success!





It starts nicely, no huge clouds of smoke this time.. and it stops nicely..

I got out of that one cheaply I think.

 

[lostmarbles]

Well done Duncan..
Nice to hear hear it running!!!

Great that you didn't have to remove your IP but I've edited my last post because I now think it is indeed possible to remove and refit the IP on any of our old 40-series B, 2B, 3B H, and 2H engines without getting into the timing cover area..

 

[duncanrm]

Well done Duncan..
Nice to hear hear it running!!!

Great that you didn't have to remove your IP but I've edited my last post because I now think it is indeed possible to remove and refit the IP on any of our old 40-series B, 2B, 3B H, and 2H engines without getting into the timing cover area..

Cheers Tom..

Once the new engine is in I'll take the pump off the old engine and work out how refitment is meant to happen .. and report back..

 

[TLC Norway]

IP change is covered in my hj60 thread.
I had to remove the cover.
All good, the main seal was done at the same time!

 

[sodafeld1]

It starts nicely, no huge clouds of smoke this time.. and it stops nicely..
I got out of that one cheaply I think.

Hi Duncan, did you build your own a start up stand for your 2h especially?
So once running and leaks checked, you then put it in your engine bay?
What sort of running in regime did you follow please?

 

[duncanrm]

Hi Duncan, did you build your own a start up stand for your 2h especially?
So once running and leaks checked, you then put it in your engine bay?
What sort of running in regime did you follow please?

No, the stand came with a rebuilt engine I bought.

Yep, after confirmation it ran OK, I installed it into the engine bay. Run in was 1000klms of fairly hard driving, lots of aggressive hill climbs and then an oil change. The engine has around 60,000klms on it now. No issues, no oil consumption, no coolant consumption, sounds great, runs well. Its taken me on some great adventures.

 

[sodafeld1]

Thank you. Could you post some pics of the stand please? A start up stand would be handy I reckon.
It would be a very nice feeling having a fresh engine indeed!

I am nearly there with my 2h re-build, just waiting on some valve guide bushes for a good old head or the new chinese heads to arrive eventually.

 

[duncanrm]

Thank you. Could you post some pics of the stand please? A start up stand would be handy I reckon.
It would be a very nice feeling having a fresh engine indeed!

I am nearly there with my 2h re-build, just waiting on some valve guide bushes for a good old head or the new chinese heads to arrive eventually.

Nice.. much left after to do after the engine goes back in?

Here's 3 photos of the engine stand. 2H Engine/Transmission stand - https://photos.app.goo.gl/bR2nXkNTw1etiyCDA