Rear axle bearing oil bath woes

[Fattyeighty]

Hello,
Attempted to do the rear bearing oil bath conversion. Was working for a while and it seems the bearings were a bit loose and some sand got into it and dug a nice groove - however I can't catch a fingernail on it.
Claw washer was like this before I got into the axle - seems like chronically loose bearings from local workshop previous to me.
What do you say gentlemen? I've ordered terrain tamer HD seals, think that'll fix it? Any other suggestions other than a junkyard housing?
Can I speedi sleeve my way out of it? No idea how though
Or just convert it back to grease + spindle seal and so it's less work for the inner hub seal?
Thanks gentlemen

 

[NeverFinis]

Did both sides still have oil when you removed the hubs?

Terrain Tamer HD is a good idea, with maybe a light coat of RTV on the spindle where the Terrain Tamer HD sits.

I would run it as is with a grease though. What is the worst that can happen? New Axle? I mean, that is already an option.

 

[Kernal]

This is how I've approached it, FWIW.

First lightly sand the spindle with fine Emery cloth where the bearings ride to remove any surface rust or burrs and then clean the spindle well to remove any dirt/grit. Then place a new inner bearing on the spindle to see how well it fits, repeat using a new outer bearing for the outer section of the spindle. The bearings should be snug and not rock.

If new bearings are not snug (and you don't or don't want to replace the spindle) you can attempt to "Stake" the spindles ie: put multiple dings into the spindle where the bearing rides using a hardened punch and small 3lb hammer. Each ding/dent will make a mini-moon crater and the elevated rim of many craters will effectively increase the OD of the spindle where the bearing rides. Make a bunch of dings evenly spaced (the outer bearing tends to get a low spot on the underside of the spindle), then test fit the bearings until they're snug, etc,etc. I did this to my front spindles on my 96 model many years ago and they're still snug. Did this to the rear spindles on my 97 model a couple years ago, no issues since. That process might seem barbaric but it's an old timers trick to put a worn spindle back into service. Just place the dings evenly and enough of them to keep the bearing from rocking. If you go too far and the bearing won't slide on the spindle take the Emery cloth and sand down the dings a tad until it does fit. Worth a try if you don't have a spare rear axle housing laying around and you have to get back on the road.

EDIT: the technique mentioned above is a modification of a method Machinist's may use to increase the OD of a shaft by using a knurling tool which displaces metal upward a few thousands. In this setting (vehicle wheel bearings running on a spindle) IMO it probably should be considered as a last ditch effort to put the vehicle back into service while planning to replace a (severely) worn spindle in the near future.

About the Terrain Tamer hub seals, after cleaning up the spindle with Emery cloth where the hub seal rides the ID of that type seal is designed to go over grooves like you have ie: it is wider than the original type hub seal and has little sealing ridges where it surrounds the spindle.


@Fattyeighty : If you haven't seen it yet, start watching at 3:50 where he talks about the Terrain Tamer Heavy Duty Hub Seal:





About the groove in the lock ring washer, just flip it so the back side is now facing the bearing.


For the rust pits in the spindle, after lightly sanding and cleaning it up with fine Emery cloth, I apply a phosphoric acid type rust converter to slow down any future rust then once that's all dry grease up the spindle before installing the hub.


One small tip: there is a drain slot/hole located at the 6 O'clock position of the backing plate at the base of the spindle that drains out the backside of the backing plate. FWIW I check to see that the drain slot/hole is not plugged while everything is apart. It's difficult to see but using your phone take a photo looking inward at the base of the spindle where it meets the backing plate to see it. Any small flexible tool (red nozzle tube from an aerosol can) can be used to clean it out from the front and the rear. FWIW

 

[Fattyeighty]

Did both sides still have oil when you removed the hubs?

Terrain Tamer HD is a good idea, with maybe a light coat of RTV on the spindle where the Terrain Tamer HD sits.

I would run it as is with a grease though. What is the worst that can happen? New Axle? I mean, that is already an option.

Thanks for the reply - there is oil that's by design since I eliminated the spindle seal and just run gear oil without grease.

Did both sides still have oil when you removed the hubs?

Terrain Tamer HD is a good idea, with maybe a light coat of RTV on the spindle where the Terrain Tamer HD sits.

I would run it as is with a grease though. What is the worst that can happen? New Axle? I mean, that is already an option.

This is how I've approached it, FWIW.

First lightly sand the spindle with fine Emery cloth where the bearings ride to remove any surface rust or burrs and then clean the spindle well to remove any dirt/grit. Then place a new inner bearing on the spindle to see how well it fits, repeat using a new outer bearing for the outer section of the spindle. The bearings should be snug and not rock.

If new bearings are not snug you can attempt to "Stake" the spindles ie: put multiple dings into the spindle where the bearing rides using a hardened punch and small 3lb hammer. Each ding/dent will make a mini-moon crater and the elevated rim of many craters will effectively increase the OD of the spindle where the bearing rides. Make a bunch of dings evenly spaced (the outer bearing tends to get a low spot on the underside of the spindle), then test fit the bearings until they're snug, etc,etc. I did this to my front spindles on my 96 model many years ago and they're still snug. Did this to the rear spindles on my 97 model a couple years ago, no issues since. That process might seem barbaric but it's an old timers trick to put a worn spindle back into service. Just place the dings evenly and enough of them to keep the bearing from rocking. If you go too far and the bearing won't slide on the spindle take the Emery cloth and sand down the dings a tad until it does fit. Worth a try if you don't have a spare rear axle housing laying around.

About the Terrain Tamer hub seals, after cleaning up the spindle with Emery cloth where the hub seal rides the ID of that type seal is designed to go over grooves like you have ie: it is wider than the original type hub seal and has little sealing ridges where it surrounds the spindle.


@Fattyeighty : If you haven't seen it yet, start watching at 3:50 where he talks about the Terrain Tamer Heavy Duty Hub Seal:





About the groove in the lock ring washer, just flip it so the back side is now facing the bearing.


For the rust pits in the spindle, after lightly sanding and cleaning it up with fine Emery cloth, I apply a phosphoric acid type rust converter to slow down any future rust then once that's all dry grease up the spindle before installing the hub.


One small tip: there is a drain slot/hole located at the 6 O'clock position of the backing plate at the base of the spindle that drains out the backside of the backing plate. FWIW I check to see that the drain slot/hole is not plugged while everything is apart. It's difficult to see but using your phone take a photo looking inward at the base of the spindle where it meets the backing plate to see it. Any small flexible tool (red nozzle tube from an aerosol can) can be used to clean it out from the front and the rear. FWIW

View attachment 3951243

Thank for the extensive reply - I really appreciate it.

I did try sliding on the existing outer/smaller bearing - it does not rock but slides on fairly easily - I am unsure if I see evidence of bearing spinning on the spindle as Im too inexperienced to notice it.

Any specific punch size? Your idea is much more appealing than bearing retaining compound.

I did find the drain slot on the bottom of the spindle - however it seems welded and there is no hold for drainage - maybe it's a GCC Spec thing

I really appreciate your reply as there is not much info regarding this.

 

[Kernal]

To my eye both the inner and outer bearings have been rotating on the spindle (more specifically, the inner race has been rotating). Same for the image showing one bearing, it appears to have some scuffing along with same damage to the roller bearings maybe?? (need a better in-focus photo).

If the existing bearing slides on and doesn't wobble then you may be good but if those are high mileage original bearings
IMHO I would go ahead and buy a new set as they will likely fit a bit tighter on the spindle.

You probably can save some money if you buy KOYO bearings instead of "Toyota" bearings (which may be Timken or KOYO).

The drain slot for the backing plate is very small (IIRC nothing I tried went all the way through). You can try spraying any non'solvent cleaner down into that depression or Electronics cleaner or the Green can of CRC brake cleaner which is TCE (because it won't easily damage the paint like Carb cleaner might) then quickly get behind the backing plate below the level of the axle housing and watch for where it trickles out. I have a photo somewhere I'll post up if I find it.
Not a big deal either way, more important things to focus on.

IMHO the "oil bath" mod of leaving the axle shaft seal out has some drawbacks, main one being if the gear oil becomes contaminated with dirt/rust/grit so will the bearings.

Example: I found the left side of the rear axle housing of my 97 model to have rust inside due to a non-functioning axle breather, likely from high humidity
in my area resulting in condensation forming inside the axle housing at night. When I drained the rear differential I found a bunch of small flakes of rust stuck to the magnet and more floating in the bottom of the axle housing, but zero rust flakes or particles in the bearings or hubs. IMO the bearings stayed clean because of the axle shaft seal.

Wait for others to chime in with their experience.

 

[Fattyeighty]

To my eye both the inner and outer bearings have been rotating on the spindle (more specifically, the inner race has been rotating). Same for the image showing one bearing, it appears to have some scuffing along with same damage to the roller bearings maybe?? (need a better in-focus photo).

If the existing bearing slides on and doesn't wobble then you may be good but if those are high mileage original bearings
IMHO I would go ahead and buy a new set as they will likely fit a bit tighter on the spindle.

You probably can save some money if you buy KOYO bearings instead of "Toyota" bearings (which may be Timken or KOYO).

The drain slot for the backing plate is very small (IIRC nothing I tried went all the way through). You can try spraying any non'solvent cleaner down into that depression or Electronics cleaner or the Green can of CRC brake cleaner which is TCE (because it won't easily damage the paint like Carb cleaner might) then quickly get behind the backing plate below the level of the axle housing and watch for where it trickles out. I have a photo somewhere I'll post up if I find it.
Not a big deal either way, more important things to focus on.

IMHO the "oil bath" mod of leaving the axle shaft seal out has some drawbacks, main one being if the gear oil becomes contaminated so will the bearings.

Example: I found the left side of the rear axle housing of my 97 model to have rust inside due to a non-functioning axle breather, likely from high humidity
in my area resulting in condensation forming inside the axle housing at night. When I drained the rear differential I found a bunch of small flakes of rust stuck to the magnet and more floating in the bottom of the axle housing, but zero rust flakes or particles in the bearings or hubs. IMO the bearings stayed clean because of the axle shaft seal.

Wait for others to chime in with their experience.

Once again I really appreciate your insight and attention to detail. This is a bearing installed last year - perhaps 4-4k miles ago.

Well I'm in Kuwait so not too concerned about rust except for a month of the year (105+ fahrenheit with 90% humidity)

Good point about the contaminated gear oil - maybe ill reinstall the spindle seal and use Cat extreme application grease for bearings + stake the spindle and call it a day once the Terrain Tamer hub seal arrives.
Any advice on punch size/how many divots? Or is this more of it'll need however it needs?
Thanks once again

 

[Kernal]

No need to stake the spindle if the bearings are snug and don't rock or wobble, I would guess that 99.9999% of people never stake the spindle even with loose bearings. If the spindle has significant wear and the bearings rock/wobble and you decide to give it a try IME there's not really a specific punch size to use, the idea is to make multiple small dings straight into the spindle surface where the bearing rides and place them evenly ie: not all in one place. The point is to raise up a little bit of metal to increase the OD of the spindle slightly if it's worn. Consider this as a temp repair if needed.

Proceed at your own risk and maybe run it by a local mechanic if you're not sure.

 

[Fattyeighty]

No need to stake the spindle if the bearings are snug and don't rock or wobble, I would guess that 99% of people never stake the spindle even with loose bearings. If the spindle has significant wear and the bearings rock/wobble and you decide to give it a try IME there's not really a specific punch size to use, the idea is to make multiple small dings straight into the spindle surface where the bearing rides and place them evenly ie: not all in one place. The point is to raise up a little bit of metal to increase the OD of the spindle slightly if it's worn.

Proceed at your own risk and maybe run it by a local mechanic if you're not sure.

I really appreciate your insight.
Ill run new bearings with Terrain tamer HD hub seal and see what happens.
May karma reward your help.

 

[NeverFinis]

Like I said in post #2. Run it.

New bearings are a given considering that they spun.

Because you may have had installation issues that caused this...

When seating the hub, beat on the tire (or rotor if tire dismounted) with a big dead blow hammer, rotate and beat on it again, and repeat. Beat on it like it owes you money. Don't be kind.

Torque the locking nuts on the heavy side, confirm rolling resistance with a fish scale.

After rebuilding, I would monitor your hubs with an infrared temperature gun.

 

[Fattyeighty]

Like I said in post #2. Run it.

New bearings are a given considering that they spun.

Because you may have had installation issues that caused this...

When seating the hub, beat on the tire (or rotor if tire dismounted) with a big dead blow hammer, rotate and beat on it again, and repeat. Beat on it like it owes you money. Don't be kind.

Torque the locking nuts on the heavy side, confirm rolling resistance with a fish scale.

After rebuilding, I would monitor your hubs with an infrared temperature gun.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Ill have probably run it on the heavier side as you suggested. I couldn't find a suggested value (not FSM) for the rears funnily - some approached 50/60 lb/ft from the research I've done - do you remember what yours was?
Ill just wait for the seals before buttoning it all up.
Have a good one friend

 

[NeverFinis]

Download the FSM for your model in the resource section.

Inner Lock Nut 43 ft·lb.
The outer lock nut is spec for 48 in·lb, which many say is too little. Do a search here to see the opinions.

The key is to check rolling resistance and to make sure it is within spec, and for your situation, I would be at the higher end.

This last bit confirms if you seated the hub correctly...

 

[Kernal]

Agree all the above. Follow the FSM.

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So to clarify for future searches, staking the spindles is a modification of a machinist's method where they use a knurling tool to slightly increase the OD of a shaft as a temp repair in this type situation. Consider it as one last trick/option to get the vehicle back into operation before replacing worn spindles or in this case the entire axle housing. From personal experience it can be done (when required) and can help tighten up the fit of the bearings (if wobbly/rocking) on a worn spindle but it's probably something the average user won't need (or maybe shouldn't attempt??).
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Here's a good video if the OP hasn't see it yet:

 

[Fattyeighty]

Download the FSM for your model in the resource section.

Inner Lock Nut 43 ft·lb.
The outer lock nut is spec for 48 in·lb, which many say is too little. Do a search here to see the opinions.

The key is to check rolling resistance and to make sure it is within spec, and for your situation, I would be at the higher end.

View attachment 3951731

View attachment 3951732

This last bit confirms if you seated the hub correctly...

I saw anecdotal evidence/users suggesting a higher preload/torque like the front bearings because of larger tires/more aggressive tires. I.e. Not following the FSM.
What do you think? Appreciate the input

Agree all the above. Follow the FSM.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So to clarify for future searches, staking the spindles is a modification of a machinist's method using a knurling tool to slightly increase the OD of a shaft as a temp repair. Consider it as one last trick/option to get the vehicle back into operation before replacing worn spindles or in this case the entire axle housing. From personal experience it can be done (when required) and can help tighten up the fit of the bearings (if wobbly/rocking) on a worn spindle but it's probably something the average user won't need (or maybe shouldn't attempt??).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here's a good video if the OP hasn't see it yet:

Thanks for the clarification - I did find your previous posts regarding staking and how it seemed to hold up for years afterwards - really inspires confidence.

Interesting you would follow the FSM in this regard. So i guess the FSM procedure for the rear axle bearings is sufficient while ToolRus and others deviated from it for front bearings (higher preload used than FSM). Do you also follow the FSM for front bearings? Once again really appreciate the help.

 

[NeverFinis]

For the front, I followed this guy's video for the front He uses his truck in a very harsh environment with bigger tires.

Use it as a guideline as he does take shortcuts at times as he has done it many times.

OTRAMM is really good. Here is his video on the rear axle. He follows the FSM to a tee.

I would NOT use The Car Care Nut video if you come across it. Full of errors and he didn't even seat the hub fully.

My post on doing my front: here and here

I went to 88.8 in lb on final torque on the outer locking nut for the front, I think double factory spec and I was at the higher end of the rolling resistance according to the scale gauge. I have 35" tires.

For the rear, my first post is here. Rear has a different outer locking nut and I don't think as problematic as the front. I don't think I did anything out of spec since I didn't make note of it, unlike the front. But, I believe I went towards the higher end of the factory spec for rolling resistance on the fish scale.

I would get a good quality fish scale if you are pushing one end of factory specs. They are inexpensive.

 

[Kernal]

I think for a newbie (no offense) it's generally safer to follow the FSM, but for those of us who've read a gazillion threads and opinions based
on other MUD members experience, and our own, we tend to deviate from the FSM to one degree or another. Also keep in mind the front axle procedure is different from the rear.

As mentioned in the post above, you have to be careful when deviating from the FSM as some videos on youtubby for example are just incorrect. The rear axle video in Post #12 above (also done by an Aussie) is straight-forward, no deviations, but there are other good videos (see post #14). I also was shocked when I watched the Car Care nut make some mistakes including not fully seating the hub (which anyone can do but you quickly figure out something is not right and correct it). That video should not have been posted up online.

Tip: if you use a fish/luggage scale to check starting torque, it's better (more accurate) IME to use an analog instrument ie: a simple mechanical needle dial type scale and not a digital fish scale as that type all have a delay in the readout which makes it difficult to determine at which point the hub started to rotate (ie: how much Force was required to get the hub to just start moving).

 

[Darne]

Rather than staking I use Loctite 640 Sleeve retainer on the spindles. After packing the wheel bearings I clean the inner races spindle surface with brake cleaner sprayed on a blue paper shop towel to remove as much wheel bearing grease as possible. Apply the loctite to the spindle, both bearing surfaces and install the hub. I'm reasonably sure I don't get all the grease off the races, but I haven't has one spin. I torque the rears same as the fronts with ToolRus method.

Dan

 

[Kernal]

FWIW added some photos (not mine) for future searches showing staked/dimpled spindles.

The front spindles are (obviously) inexpensive to replace but the rear spindles are not (replacement axle housing).

If you look closely you can see the majority of the dimples are on the underside of the (front) spindle. The wear from loose wheel bearing
preload IME tends to cause more wear on the lower aspect of the spindle ie: running under between 3 and 9 O'clock. Been discussed that the wear pattern is thought to be due to the rocking of the wheel/hub on the spindle as the vehicle's weight comes on and off the wheel/hub/bearing/spindle.

 

[Fattyeighty]

FWIW added some photos (not mine) for future searches showing staked/dimpled spindles.

The front spindles are (obviously) inexpensive to replace but the rear spindles are not (replacement axle housing).

View attachment 3953920

View attachment 3953921

View attachment 3953923

Appreciate everyone's insight. That picture is exactly what I was searching for.

An update for future readers.
I did run it with a new hub seal however it still leaks at the hub (no spindle seal - trying the oil bath method) even after a 360 grit/1500grit sanding on the spindles seal surface - perhaps offsetting the factory hub seal is a possibility but Ill try Terrain tamer's hub seal for peace of mind.

Bearings preload seems fine using the fish scale method - around 20-25 lb/ft was at the higher end of Toyota FSM (12ish lbs) after cleaning the spindles as suggested with emery cloth.
Bearings were slightly warmer than ambient temperature (ambient is around 42-44 celsius at night these days) after a 2-3 mile drive so preload seems to be fine however no idea if it will hold after many miles.

Seems like I'll be using the Terrain Tamer hub HD hub seals + new bearings with perhaps loctite bearing retaining compound for extra safety - I think it'll work out well.
Once again I really appreciate everyone's expertise and insight as there is far less info on rear axles than front.

 

[robnicko]

Like I said in post #2. Run it.

New bearings are a given considering that they spun.

Because you may have had installation issues that caused this...

When seating the hub, beat on the tire (or rotor if tire dismounted) with a big dead blow hammer, rotate and beat on it again, and repeat. Beat on it like it owes you money. Don't be kind.

Torque the locking nuts on the heavy side, confirm rolling resistance with a fish scale.

After rebuilding, I would monitor your hubs with an infrared temperature gun.

this , especially the hammer mention, see this video at 6m20sec

 

[BILT4ME]

Whatever you do, don't assemble it dry.

At a VERY minimum, dip the bearings in gear oil. Then before hitting the road, set the truck sideways on a hill and let the gear oil from the differential run down to the spindle and fill it. Then turn it around and do it for the opposite side, then back to level and refill the rear differential.

GM runs their 3/4T (1975-1987) rear full float axles in gear oil. If you assemble dry and drive it, you can make it approximately 3/4 mile at 60 MPH before they lock up.

You can also grease the bearings (pack them) with a gear-oil compatible grease and the grease will dissolve over time as the gear oil floods the cavity.