Ocala NF : User Fee Proposed (1 Viewer)

[soggy60]

Feds proposing 15 bucks for 3 day pass

60 to hundred plus for annual.

see www.flca.org

- click link on home page


(p.s. Ocala NF is in Florida

( but6 it can, maybe has, happened to you

 

[MichiganChapter?]

Feds proposing 15 bucks for 3 day pass

60 to hundred plus for annual.

see www.flca.org

- click link on home page


(p.s. Ocala NF is in Florida

( but6 it can, maybe has, happened to you

I'm not certain that I understand the last sentance.

What position has your club taken on this along with (more importantly) the TLCA?....The BRC?... The NOHVCC?

What I'm getting at here is the same concept argued previously with nothing but attacks:
Question:
is there any national off-road group in the country willing to take a PUBLICLY HELD position on any of the important issues which affect us each and every day.

If your club or any of these hear/speak/see no evil 'non-profits' are willing to finally stick their necks out hereon this inevitable subject of pay-to-play...so be it and congratulations for standing up/acting like a man or woman should regarding what it truly costs to wheel.

Yet if these groups choose to turn their heads on these type of subjects over the very real threat of risking membership renewals (see supporting groups like the AMA and their helmet|(less) 'rights' or me-only-and-forever single-track-trail policies) then why should anybody in the orv community support them?

Please give us some more info as to what is to be done with this money and how restoration/maintenance is is being funded at proper levels presently without it so that we may better understand your last line above.

Thank you.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

Again....is it that difficult to come down on one side or the other on these hugely important issues of "pay-to-play" and the proper funding involving our resources.....or are our 'non-profits' more interested in not taking any kind of stand on these issues so as not to 'upset' liberal-minded dues paying members who don't believe in the pay-our-own-way concept?

 

[TUFFTORQ]

Feds proposing 15 bucks for 3 day pass

60 to hundred plus for annual.

see www.flca.org

- click link on home page


(p.s. Ocala NF is in Florida

( but6 it can, maybe has, happened to you

Well, this is where your funds are being used:

More and more people recreate on national forests and grasslands every year. Meeting the increasing needs of these visitors, delivering quality recreation, heritage and wilderness opportunities, and protecting natural resources has become challenging.
To help address this issue, President Bush signed the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (REA). The Act permits federal land management agencies to continue charging modest fees at campgrounds, rental cabins, high-impact recreation areas and at day-use sites that have certain facilities. The Act defined the following fee categories:
Standard Fees
Examples: Picnic areas, developed trailheads, destination visitor centers, high impact recreation areas
Explanation: Typically, standard amenity fees are day use fees, often covered by a day or annual pass. High impact recreation areas are contiguous areas that support concentrated recreation use. Each site or area must contain six "amenities," which are picnic tables, trash, toilet, parking, interpretive signing and security.
Expanded Fees
Examples: Campgrounds, highly developed boat launches and swimming areas, cabin or lookout rentals. Services like hookups, dump stations, special tours, transportation systems and reservation services.
Explanation: Provides direct benefits to individuals or groups.
Special Recreation Permits
Examples: Wilderness areas, shooting ranges, specialized trail systems
Explanation: Permits are issued when extra measures are required for natural and cultural resource protection, or the health and safety of visitors. They may also be used to disperse recreation use or help ensure that the number of visitors does not exceed the capacity of the land.

 

[TUFFTORQ]

However the Adventure passes are being reviewed (and in a good way for all of us outdoor folk). Check out www.freeourforests.org

This is some really interesting reading that may help out, if your cited for non-compliance.

Court Cases:
The following cases involve alleged violations of the Forest Service's Recreation Fee Demonstration Program. Since this program is the parent of the Adventure Pass and the Northwest Forest Pass programs, these cases directly affect the enforcement of these passes.

One common issue that can be summarized about these court cases is that the Forest Service has problems with enforcement when violations go to court. Since most often the occupant of a vehicle is not present at the time of the issuance of a NON, the Forest Service has had a number of cases thrown out of court by judges throughout the country.

There have been only a few cases known to Free Our Forests of an Adventure Pass violator in court in Southern California, but in other states, the Forest Service has brought many cases to court. No one has been fined for an Adventure Pass violation, but fines have been issued for failure to comply with other Fee Demo projects around the country. Often, though, judges toss out the charges or prosecutors drop the charges. Most dismissals of cases are due, again, to the fact that occupants are often away from their vehicle. The burden of proof is on the issuing officer, and unless that officer sees you recreating, or you testify in your own defense (allowing the prosecutor to ask if you recreated), the citation will likely be dismissed. This basic constitutional right was backed up in an August, 2001 ruling from a federal magistrate in Arizona who ruled that the Forest Service could not issue a citation to an unattended vehicle. In another April, 2003 ruling, however, a Washington magistrate ignored arguments that a citation could not be issued to a vehicle.

In one court case involving an Adventure Pass violation - in which the charges were dismissed - a U.S. Magistrate stated that the program was "discretionary." The violator did not have an Adventure Pass, but he was not given a NON. Instead, he was cited with a parking ticket and a violation for disobeying a posted sign. The sign that the violator did not obey, interestingly enough, stated that an Adventure Pass is required to park in the Angeles National Forest.

Another problem that the Forest Service has in enforcement is that the Code of Federal Regulations (36 CFR 261.15) that is used to prosecute violations says nothing about requiring a pass or decal to be displayed on a vehicle. A technicality, but some judges toss cases out on this problem alone.

Hmmm...

 

[Biscuit]

I'm not certain that I understand the last sentance.

What position has your club taken on this along with (more importantly) the TLCA?....The BRC?... The NOHVCC?

What I'm getting at here is the same concept argued previously with nothing but attacks:
Question:
is there any national off-road group in the country willing to take a PUBLICLY HELD position on any of the important issues which affect us each and every day.

If your club or any of these hear/speak/see no evil 'non-profits' are willing to finally stick their necks out hereon this inevitable subject of pay-to-play...so be it and congratulations for standing up/acting like a man or woman should regarding what it truly costs to wheel.

Yet if these groups choose to turn their heads on these type of subjects over the very real threat of risking membership renewals (see supporting groups like the AMA and their helmet|(less) 'rights' or me-only-and-forever single-track-trail policies) then why should anybody in the orv community support them?

Please give us some more info as to what is to be done with this money and how restoration/maintenance is is being funded at proper levels presently without it so that we may better understand your last line above.

Thank you.

And this point/agument/tirade spreads. We may need a "The Ultimate Clubs Holding A Public Land Use Stance Debate" thread.

I'll be back to summarize in a few dozen posts.

 

[woooody]

Again....is it that difficult to come down on one side or the other on these hugely important issues of "pay-to-play" and the proper funding involving our resources.....or are our 'non-profits' more interested in not taking any kind of stand on these issues so as not to 'upset' liberal-minded dues paying members who don't believe in the pay-our-own-way concept?

Is it that difficult to post your name?

Pay to play --- Yes. All for it.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

.
Special Recreation Permits
Examples: Wilderness areas, shooting ranges, specialized trail systems
Explanation: Permits are issued when extra measures are required for natural and cultural resource protection, or the health and safety of visitors. They may also be used to disperse recreation use or help ensure that the number of visitors does not exceed the capacity of the land.

What's interesting to me is that I recently asked a forest service land manager about apllying to be on this funding committee. He insisted that these fees had absolutely nothing to do with trails and that I would be wasting my time.(and I'm one of the few 'possibly' on his side if the fee is reasonable and said funding is never diverted elsewhere)

When I see workshops in CA being orgainized by the forest service personnel themselves; complete with advertised Q&A sessions...as opposed to the NOHVCC/"off-road community"sponsored workshops here in Michigan barely announced publicly with nothing but politico-speak "objectives" put forward and no advertised opportunity to do the same...it makes one wonder why every state's meeting regarding the same damn subject can't be brought forward in anything even resembling a similar manner.

CA forest employees seem to begiven the opportunity to run thehow....while Michigan employees seemingly only get a call from their boss to 'be there' and not even a call from our community asking these attendees to put theflipping thing on their website before the registration deadline passes.

What's the deal?

Isn't there any single-track-me-only-trails being back-door pushed through these forests in CA?

 

[MichiganChapter?]

"..Another problem that the Forest Service has in enforcement is that the Code of Federal Regulations (36 CFR 261.15) that is used to prosecute violations says nothing about requiring a pass or decal to be displayed on a vehicle. A technicality, but some judges toss cases out on this problem alone...."

I can't comment on this Federal Law; yet the ability to properly identify ourselves has been in our hands for decades and is yet another example of how divided our community actually is.
We used to have large boat registration-sized stickers on both sides of our sleds for a reason. There is absolutely no reason that every motorized orv out there can't modify their rigs to display even a day/night-glo version of that sticker today.
Why did this requirement go away and cause every darn orv club since to shy away from any discussion ever requiring these LARGER and more VISIBLE I.D. numbers to be law once again?

Because any club who appeared in a promo with both this loud sticker and a law enforcement officer holding up the other end of it....would be damn well 'non-profit' all right within the next year or sooner.

Sad, true and even more so in regions such as the Appalachias.

 

[NorCal Cruiser]

...When I see workshops in CA being orgainized by the forest service personnel themselves; complete with advertised Q&A sessions... ...it makes one wonder why every state's meeting regarding the same damn subject can't be brought forward in anything even resembling a similar manner.

CA forest employees seem to begiven the opportunity to run thehow....while Michigan employees seemingly only get a call from their boss to 'be there' and not even a call from our community asking these attendees to put theflipping thing on their website before the registration deadline passes....

All forests are required to follow the same steps for NEPA. One of these steps is to hold public scoping meetings. They are required to advertise these meetings, usually with 30 days notice.

Michigan- have you tried contacting the rec leads at your local forest to get information about their (the forest's) meetings?

 

[NorCal Cruiser]

Here are some articles regarding the fee rule:

Go west young person - but pay a fee -
http://www.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/2006/04/19/news/fee.html

and

Parking fee ruling could cost forest agency $700K- http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/26139.php

 

[MichiganChapter?]

Michigan- have you tried contacting the rec leads at your local forest to get information about their (the forest's) meetings?

With less than a week to go before the '2nd' public registration deadline was set to expire; I called the people you refer to after being told by the national workshop sponsors (our quote/unquote 'leaders' )that they couldn't "force" our government employees to publish the meeting dates themselves.

After discovering that nobody had even so much as contacted them about publishing these dates (or anything else regarding the meeting) AFTER I had continually screamed bloody murder to our people both local and nationally as to them not being published anywhere....I found out also that these forest employees had simply gotten a call from their boss informing them to simply 'be there' and nothing else.(one forest service manager had to even call the other to find out just what the heck was going on; which to me is a pretty damn stark comparison to what was afforded in California where non-multi-use single track only was trying to be pushed through sans any kind of debate).

As far as the forest service employees that "I" talked to goes.....I didn't sense anything but a willingness to engage whoever they could; nor a prejudice towards one machine using our forest lands over another.
On the other hand; when a man is treated rudely both on the local and national level when simply talking about publishing these meetings in the first place in our own community....even to the point of accusations that he just may attempt to 'disrupt' the meeting itself for doing so?....it's pretty darn clear to me that some things need to change 'up top' before I'll send a dime into national organizations turning a blind eye to this kind of crap.

Again, folks....we've got a funding committee meeting behind closed doors right now without so much as even a 'progress report' at out last public quarterly meeting involving the inevitable MAJOR incrimental raising of fees here in Michigan and just how those 10's and perhaps 100's of millions will be spent over the next 25 years. (the span of time since this has last been looked at on this scale and more incredibly worked on without even a publicly announced oft-delayed orv update plan in place).

We've got a lot of "me-only-trail" people and "everybody needs a subsidy" training instructors salivating over this upcoming windfall and I'm sorry....but every national organization out there has absolutely NO interest in fighting for the light of day to shine down on this critically important process.

If these national leaders won't comment on "22,000 member" anonymous representative councils or all government-related public orv meetings cancelled for up to 6 months at a time (along with a litany of other simple 'right-to-know' issues such as the workshop fiasco noted above....what in the heck are these people good for? Covering the arses of those seeking to shut down trails for the vast majority users in this community as is being done right now in the Hiawatha National Forest...and as was attempted but a few years ago to the tune of 100 miles in the Huron National Forest with the rest of us asked to foot the $50,000 study alone?.

We're not only bucking 'the greenies' here....but the single largest on/off road organization in this country with a lot of strange notions regarding both helmet use and their divinely annointed but SEPARATE place in this community we're supposedly trying to build on (cough) "togetherness" and the "shared trails" concept.

 

[soggy60]

OK, In response....

I posted message to infom OHV'rs in Florida that a user fee will be in our future; an awareness posting....

We have a state wide group: Florida 4 Wheel Drive Association. This group has bee working for years (over 5) with the FS group that manages the 3 NFs in Florida.

What we've seen: The trails that were worth the trouble to get to ( e.g., for me, it's a 5 hour drive to Ocala NF) are now closed. The majority of the open trails ( not all, but most) can be traveresed by a 2wd auto . . .
Will the user fee eventually lead to re-opening some of the closed areas ? We doubt it....

As for you folks in CA and Michigan, I'll plead a tad of ingnorance....
- but you may have to also ( unless you've lived here....)

I see that CA has one or more publically funded (State?) OHV areas...dare I say a 'park'.
Florida Does Not !
I also 'sense', from reading forums, there's places where you could (maybe not 'legally') make a turn off the pavement and follow a trail....
There's a few down here, but typically lead to a moutain of trash (sofa's, car hulks, etc) and it's on private property anyway, access was throught a flattened fence....

Attempts at a 'private' OHV park have not worked yet - regulatory overburden, or land converted to a neighborhood.

I know little about Michigan-never been there....are there lots of places to go trail riding ?
I live in southeast Fla. I can drive 2 hours south (~120 miles) and never leave massive jammed civilization - the three counties I traverse contain over 6 million people. How many people do ya have in your whole state ?
I'm well over 50 yr old. Where I learned stick-shift & some off roading is now a community of over 1,250,000 people (Orlando) .
Where I taught my kids to drive/4 wheel is now schools, shopping centers, and a city of over 300,000 (Royal Palm Beach)

If it's not a neighborhood or city, it's chain-linked or protected wetlands.

We need to protect what little 'dirt roads' remain in Fla. , let alone fight for access to sand pits, clay sinks, etc

As for " but6 it can, maybe has, happened to you" : but6 is a typo.....

It was meant for those that may have been following what's happening in Fla: Trails closing and Fees comming....

Pete Bailey

 

[MichiganChapter?]

"..As for " but6 it can, maybe has, happened to you" : but6 is a typo.....

It was meant for those that may have been following what's happening in Fla: Trails closing and Fees comming....

Pete Bailey

Thanks for the correction, Pete; yet my simple question still goes unanswered:

As in our national orv organizations' refusal to take any kind of stand on these arrogant motorcyclist groups that they are closely affiliated with closing down our forest land to the majority of users out there....why does everybody 'punt' when it comes to discussing user fees or "pay-to-play" right out here and in the light of day?

I've got a committee here in Michigan right now discussing more money than a lot of these orv programs out there COMBINED that refuses to give the public a detailed progress report on our community's position as to how these millions should be spent......even every 3 months!

I don't like 'anonymous' when it comes to my dollars, Pete....and it's the national leaders you see here refusing to simply squash this nonsense and talk about it like men should.....that are driving our kids away from ever becomming involved in these funding-type issues in the first place.

 

[woooody]

Quit hijacking Pete's thread. His concern is Florida.

Why should you get answers to Michigan questions in a thread about a Florida ORV issue? Are you really that dense?

No one affiliated with TLCA has "turned and run".

You continue to slander. Be specific. Your concerns are with other groups. If you don't like how state dollars are spent, bring it up with YOUR STATE officials.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

"...What position has your club taken on this along with (more importantly) the TLCA?....The BRC?... The NOHVCC?..."
Thank you.

Quit hijacking Pete's thread. His concern is Florida....
You continue to slander. Be specific. Your concerns are with other groups....."

What is the problem here.
My very first very simply crafted question here involves a number of organizations that SHOULD be involved in the subject matter of this thread...yet the mere mention of any position actually held by our 'leaders' provokes/invites accusations from you of "SLANDER" along with a blatant redirection attempt involving the absence of "specifics" regarding every organization already mentioned.

Tell me something, Woody...who is trying to get a 'slander' out of who here...and why are there so many lap-dogs for these people out here making sure that leaders never have to answer question one about anything involving big money funding dollars in our states or our right to know how exactly they represent us to the powers that be?

I ask for a simple position on pay-to-play in the Ocala from 'anybody'....and this is what potential donors on the national level should expect to receive?

 

[woooody]

Your very first question has nothing to do with the subject at hand. You ask Pete what TLCA and BRC and NOHVCC have done. How the heck should he know?

Do you even know who or what NOHVCC is? From their site:

"About NOHVCC


The National Off-Highway Vehicle Conservation Council is a publicly supported, education foundation organized for the sole purpose of developing and providing a wide spectrum of programs, materials and information, or “tools”, to individuals, clubs, associations and agencies in order to further a positive future for responsible OHV recreation."

They aren't public access advocates, per se. They provide materials and information to clubs, associations and agencies. Why would they have a position on OCALA NF?

TLCA hasn't been contacted about Ocala NF, other than this post. Many TLCA reps replied within this thread, and provided great information. You ignored their information.

I know very little about it. I'm in California. I'm not the East Coast rep.

From previous posts, we know that your problem is Michigan. We get that.

you are the one making acusations about how people aren't acting like men. Yet you continue to fail to sign your post with your name. Who's acting "unmanly"?

You're becoming a TROLL. Continue to do so, and you will be treated accordingly.