New Battery Advice.... (1 Viewer)

[RichardsBJ]

Posted in the 40's forum although one fellow suggested I post here because of the deisel/24 volt system. Looks like Blue needs new batteries. I was warned about this and when I went to crank her up this weekend there was not enough juice. So question is with a 24 volt system do I need one battery for cranking as I have on my boat and one deep cycle for the other? Apparently deep cell is good and a deep cycle is for diffferent purposes. Any suggestions on a type of bettery to buy? Inquiring minds want to know.

Cheers!

 

[Stone]

Your 24V system utilizes BOTH batteries in series to produce 24V...so you would need two identical batteries in your battery bank. You don't really need deep cycle...but if you get a heavy duty battery like Interstate's Workaholic, they should work better in a diesel that tends to vibrate more. I don't remember off hand what a 40 series takes...but most of the older Land Cruisers seem to take the larger Group 27 batteries.

Are you tapping the low-side battery to get 12V for your radio and other 12V accessories? If you are, this is a good way to kill your batteries as it will draw down the low side battery and cause the high side to boil over. Always use a proper step-down converter or charge equalizer when using 12V accessories in a 24V system. Do a search...

Good luck.

 

[83bj60]

I would say, go with the boat so-called deep-cyle/starting batteries (they aren't true deep cycle - they have similar plates to automotive batteries, but are better at resisting vibrations AND the odd discharge cycle)

I have been using these batteries for years now and am very happy with them. They are usually cheaper than automotive, larger and heavier and produce more than enough amps. And you can fasten the cables directly to the posts and replace the existing bolts with stainless... A no-brainer, really. Do get acid neutralizing felt rings so as to prevent excessive corrosion from seepage from the posts: although the SS will not be affected, the copper in the cables will oxidize (maybe due to reaction between it and the stainless steel? But that would happen only if you did NO maintenance on the connectors whatsoever for years, like me ;p And yes, after two years those SS nuts came off as easy as when I first installed them )

As for capacity... As you know, diesels need power for the glow plugs so a start/deep cycle battery is better at surviving a long glow plug cycle (if any) plus it will perform better with an overnight load such as a fridge. Furthermore if you can't start your engine within 30 seconds, standard "high capacity" autmotive batteries will generally have gone flat after a couple of attempts. Not so with these batteries... Give them 5 minutes and presto, you've got a new chance. Also, if you forget your lights on (happened recently - 2 hours), you can still start your engine. Try to do that with automotives! (that's from personal experience!)... Big deal if they produce 'only' 650 CCA instead of 850! I never had a problem even below -35C, and that was a couple of years ago when I had no engine block heater. You got two of them, and besides, the capacity is bound to be at least as high, with the latest advances in technology, than the automotive type OEMs they are going to replace anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, these boat batteries ("start/troll" is another term they use) are the best. The slightly lower CCA is more than compensated with better long term load capacity and vibration resistance. They are indeed the 'diesels' of lead acid batteries. Get the biggest that will fit in your trays and, if you're anal, take into account eventually installing some battery blankets

If you decide to go for them one piece of advice: DON'T buy any that have been sitting on a store shelf more than 6 months! They are probably sulfated from non use by now! That can be a problem in winter, as most people will buy these for their boats and in winter, at least here in the great white north, well... Not much boating going on!!!... Do check those date codes! I personally would NOT buy antything that is more than 3 months old... And as everyone knows on 24 volt systems, you MUST have identical batteries... If one is weak, replace BOTH as a set AND from the same date and batch, and keep the other older battery that still works as a spare (if you want it to last, you MUST maintain its charge properly!) or for auxiliary power only.

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

One more note on the date codes... Make sure to buy two batteries from the same date. As 83bj60 said, older batteries can act differently after sitting. Get two batteries that are identical and the same age. Also make sure to switch the low and high side batteries every once in a while... Keeps the charges and loads on the batteries equal.

 

[83bj60]

One more note on the date codes... Make sure to buy two batteries from the same date. As 83bj60 said, older batteries can act differently after sitting. Get two batteries that are identical and the same age. Also make sure to switch the low and high side batteries every once in a while... Keeps the charges and loads on the batteries equal.

Indeed, the dates and batch codes must be identical... I thought I had mentioned that? Hmm! I am getting a wee bit forgetful in my older years ... Glad you pointed it out...

Another thing I like to do on occasion is to really "boost" charge them (and fill the drying cells with distilled water) to equalize the cells. I stop when all cells have the exact same specific gravity (you need a battery acid tester for that). Sometimes you can rejuvenate a battery doing it like that, but it can take days if not weeks....

From my experience what really kills batteries in a vehicle is vibration and the inevitable sloughing off of plate material ending with a weak battery or worse, a short. Good, solid batteries can last up to 10 years in a vehicle. Warranty length is not necessarily an indication of quality: boat batteries have typically shorter warranties because most folks are quite casual recharging the batteries when the boat is stored, and they consequently have a tendency to die a quick death by sulfation if not maintained meticulously. After almost 3 years the Energizer group 31 batteries in my truck still generate the same amount of CCAs, according to my load tester, as when they were new.

 

[gofast]

Optima red top. Get them at Walmart as they are the least expensive there. I have them in my 77 Celica which only runs in the summer, and 73 series, and my work van.

They last a very very long time and can withstand discharging when you forget your lights or leave something on you shouldn't. I've personally witnessed a 12 year Optima fire up a truck that shouldn't have been running. Reduced off gasing and zero maintenance.l

Replace them in pairs, and you want something that produces more than 800 CC Amps.

I use a shut off switch that interrupts the ground that I use if I'm parking for a while or don't want the truck stolen when I'm in dodgey areas.

Echoing the comments on getting a step down converter. No other really good way to get 12v and still maintain batery life.

Cheers,
John

 

[Stone]

Hmm...interesting...Greg's never had good luck with Optimas in 24V trucks.

My experience has been that you don't need high CCA's to turn over a Toyota diesel...650 CCA in each battery is more than you'll ever need.

 

[83bj60]

I concur with Stone... The original batteries did not have more than 650 CCA. Maybe Kim Jong Il meant 850CA....

In any case just get the largest battery your trays will hold, and you will compensate possibly slightly lower starting oomph with much better stamina.

Not to say optima Red tops are bad... I'm just not convinced of their superiority. At least not for the kind of money they sell for, and the fact these cylindrical cells waste a lot of space. BUT, they may be more robust. Only long term reports will tell.

In any case... Our diesels are excellent starters, much better than any 3B powered landcruiser I've ever had (not that 3Bs were dogs in that respect either).

Bottom line get the highest capacity battery you can, the most robust and the best reserve capacity and that can take some standby deep discharge.

 

[jake2far]

Deka AGM batteries hands down best batteries for your app.
AGM = absorbed glass mat. The acid is in a glass mat between the lead plates, they don't gas out when charging, are sealed so never need water, will work in any position, if they get a hole in them they don't leak, they won't get damaged if they sit for awhile, they resist vibration damage better than any lead acid battery, provide correct voltage for a longer time because the acid remains in contact with the plates better than liquid acid, and they charge faster, just an all around better battery.

AGM batteries have several advantages over both gelled and flooded, at about the same cost as gelled:

Since all the electrolyte (acid) is contained in the glass mats, they cannot spill, even if broken. This also means that since they are non-hazardous, the shipping costs are lower. In addition, since there is no liquid to freeze and expand, they are practically immune from freezing damage.
Nearly all AGM batteries are "recombinant" - what that means is that the Oxygen and Hydrogen recombine INSIDE the battery. These use gas phase transfer of oxygen to the negative plates to recombine them back into water while charging and prevent the loss of water through electrolysis. The recombining is typically 99+% efficient, so almost no water is lost.
The charging voltages are the same as for any standard battery - no need for any special adjustments or problems with incompatible chargers or charge controls. And, since the internal resistance is extremely low, there is almost no heating of the battery even under heavy charge and discharge currents. The Concorde (and most AGM) batteries have no charge or discharge current limits.
AGM's have a very low self-discharge - from 1% to 3% per month is usual. This means that they can sit in storage for much longer periods without charging than standard batteries. The Concorde batteries can be almost fully recharged (95% or better) even after 30 days of being totally discharged.
AGM's do not have any liquid to spill, and even under severe overcharge conditions hydrogen emission is far below the 4% max specified for aircraft and enclosed spaces. The plates in AGM's are tightly packed and rigidly mounted, and will withstand shock and vibration better than any standard battery.

Here is a link to DEKA specs.
http://www.solarelectricsupply.com/pdf/Deka/Deka-AGM.pdf
and no I don't sell them or work for the company, just believe they really are the best batteries out there.

My 2 cents

Jim

 

[83bj60]

Hmmm... A few questions:

- Do you actually own or use any of these batteries. In other words, is that your experience, or simply your belief.
- What is their reliability based on in actual automotive use.
- What is the cost of ownership.

I have other questions as well, suffice it to say that what looks good in theory is not always practical in the field.

 

[Doug384]

Jim's information is complete. AGM batteries are worth the extra cost for the reliabilty. I replaced a standard flooded battery which died after 2 years with an AGM in my BMW R100RS motorcycle. Vibration is heavier than my L/C. The flooded battery would self discharge while the bike was parked over several months to the point of needing a charge to get started. The AGM is simply amazing at holding a charge. It provides more kick from a smaller package. My 800 cc 4 cycle Skidoo has an AGM battery that cranks that motor at -40 C with no issues. There is no pull start backup. My Honda VTR 1000 twin had an AGM battery that lasted for 6 years. The battery is about the size of a 10 pack of D size alkalines yet easily and reliably cranked a 1000 cc V twin even when the motor was stinking hot or close to freezing with 20W50 oil in the sump.
AGM batteries will get cheaper as more appear on the market. The extra cost of around 20-30% is worth the aggravation of replacement and no start events. They are all factory standard on new power sports equipment because vibration and rough use won't kill them.

When my CTC eliminators get soft in the L/C I will be looking at AGM replacements.

 

[free2surf]

Give ol' Blue something nice. Working on boats we only use the blue top Optima deep cycle batteries. I just recently did this for my 12V HJ47. I went with the D 27M. They are pricey but will last nearly forever. I also went with a really kickarse tray (see photos). The tray is nice because there are no vertical tie downs.

I purchased this setup from the guy who machines the trays. His name is Ben and he also worked with me on the price. I found a cheaper battery online and he matched the price and the whole package was here in two days with free shipping. Really great to work with. Now he doesn't do much with landcruisers (yet I hope) so you will have to drill and countersink your bolt pattern. However, I bet if you get him a template he would do it for free. Super Nice guy.

 

[free2surf]

Oh and meant to mention that I changed out my terminals to a mil-spec type that allows you to terminate your cable and bolt to the side. Also made up some heavy duty marine grade cables w/ crimped copper terminations for the starter, ground and redid as many body grounds I could find. Anyway, I'm real happy with this setup and let me know if I can help out. The link to that optima tray and battery site is: Optima Battery Trays

 

[Freewheel]

To All you guys recommending the AGM and Optimas. Yes, they are great batteries for 12 volt applications and motorcycle and boats and everything else 12 volt.

If you do any MUD research, you will find lots of testimonials that they do NOT work in pairs in a 24 volt system.
A number of people have had to replace them in 1 or 2 years.
No-one is quite sure why, but it seems like a common problem.

I have not personally tried optimas in my 24 volt system, though I wanted to. Once I did the research on this forum, I changed my mind.

If any of you have actually run a pair of AGM batteries in 24v series for 10 years, please let us know.

 

[Koffer]

I went thru 2 sets of Red tops in my BJ70 within 4 years , never again in a 24V system. I bought a waterproof 24v battery tender with the money I saved by just getting a set of regular AutoZone middle grade batteries. tThey have been great for over 4 years now . I just keep it plugged in when I park it for over a week or in the winter when I don't drive it.
On my old FJ40 The red top in that lasted 9 years with it sitting for months at a time (I got it at the same day as the 1st set in my BJ70) same thing with my 65 Beetle its over 5 years now and starts right up after sitting all winter in a unheated garage .
12V + red top = good
24V+ red tops = bad

 

[83bj60]

JAGM batteries will get cheaper as more appear on the market. The extra cost of around 20-30% is worth the aggravation of replacement and no start events. They are all factory standard on new power sports equipment because vibration and rough use won't kill them.

When my CTC eliminators get soft in the L/C I will be looking at AGM replacements.

Where are they available in a STORE and how much do they cost in 31 group? Will they work well as a deep discharge for such things as running fridges, etc, overnight?

 

[83bj60]

To All you guys recommending the AGM and Optimas. Yes, they are great batteries for 12 volt applications and motorcycle and boats and everything else 12 volt.

If you do any MUD research, you will find lots of testimonials that they do NOT work in pairs in a 24 volt system.
A number of people have had to replace them in 1 or 2 years.
No-one is quite sure why, but it seems like a common problem.

I have not personally tried optimas in my 24 volt system, though I wanted to. Once I did the research on this forum, I changed my mind.

If any of you have actually run a pair of AGM batteries in 24v series for 10 years, please let us know.

I second that. I don't mind replacing my batteries every 10 years. Heck, I'm really happy if they last more than 8 years (My HDJ81 still had the original batteries with the individual cell when I got it in 2006, so they can last a LONG time IF they are properly maintained and kept BALANCED)

 

[free2surf]

Hmm, interesting on the AGM's and Spiral for 24V. I will read some of those threads. We use both AGM's and Spiral for 24V systems to power oceanographic instrumentation here at work and have amazing success with these sealed battery applications. I wonder if the difference is that most of our charging is from an outboard 4-Stroke motor which typically has about 40-60amps from the alternator. Not sure what a 24V alternator puts out. Curious.

 

[Doug384]

I can't comment on 24 volt systems. From what I understand the 24 volt alternator on the older models was low output. Are you talking one of these hybrid 24/12 unbalanced systems designed to meet federal DOT requirements for lights? I think that without careful maintenannce they will always give trouble. A 24 volt non hybrid system should be no different than a 12 volt one, wouldn't you think? All the cells are in series. AGM batteries have only been in general use for the past 15 years so it is hard to get much long term information. They do have less calcium in the lead grid because the grid is supported by the glass mat which means faster charging and higher output. They cost more to manufacture. Deka does have a line of heavier batteries. My local auto electric sold Deka at a more reasonable price than you would think they should. I think that it will be some time before you see them at the discount stores. CTC and Walmart make their bucks on margin selling lower quality with pumped up warranties. You buy the warranty in the cost of the battery. A quality battery doesn't need a 10 year warranty. That is designed to make the sale first. Then they get you coming back for the second sale (prorated warranty). Who else would sell a low output battery with a limited warranty. They are just junk. Who the heck keeps an old vehicle for the warranty of the battery? (oops, some cruiser head!)

I have been through many batteries in my agricultural tractors over the years. Some are made better than others. The cheap ones are junk. They are not designed with enough internal resistance to vibration and rough pounding. Remember that a tractor has no suspension! If you are keeping the vehicle, if it is important that it starts when you are needing to get to work, it is worth the aggravation of the no start to buy the most reliable battery which means spending a bit more.

 

[jake2far]

Hmmm... A few questions:

- Do you actually own or use any of these batteries. In other words, is that your experience, or simply your belief.
- What is their reliability based on in actual automotive use.
- What is the cost of ownership.

I have other questions as well, suffice it to say that what looks good in theory is not always practical in the field.

Good of you to ask.
Yes I own both Deka and Optima, yes I have actual use experience. Now for you, using your logic, have you actully used Deka batteries, do you have real time failure experience with Deka batteries, or is your opinion based on what you have read?
I have used these batteries in my BJ70, Fj55, travel trailer with 4 batteries, my boat for my Minn Kota electric trolling motor 3 each, I could go on but why.


Jim