modify family car or buy a dedicated car for off roading? (1 Viewer)

[ypyun]

my 2021 gx 460 is currently the family car. both my wife and i each have a vehicle for our own personal use so a total of 3 vehicles at the moment. two of us with a kid and a dog. i do not want to compromise how quiet and comfortable the gx is when driving on the freeway.

i've done a few solo trips this last year to test out the vehicle. i have been to hungry valley ohv (4x4 test area, rattler trail), alamo mountain, rowler ohv and libre mountain (easy fire road). i choose these trails because funtreks rates them as easy. i managed to scratch the side steps multiple times, scratched the front skid plate, and i busted up the front bumper when going through the frame twister at the 4x4 practice area in hungry valley. the damage to the front bumper was not to bad. the traction control was sufficient for the deep ditches i encountered on the trails. locking the center diff seemed to enable a more aggressive traction control system. the vehicle is a beast in 1st gear 4lo with the center diff locked.

with that said the vehicle even in its stock form is more capable than its driver so i'm planning on taking a off road driving course. my biggest issue as a driver is off camber inclines/declines and how to maintain the vehicle after a trip off road.

eventually i'd like to car camp in eastern sierras, death valley, joshua tree, anza-borrego, and mojave desert. funtreks rates some of these places as moderate. seems to me that at a minimum i would need to get sliders, cut the front bumper 6 inches, and get some light duty AT tires (continental terraincontact, cooper discoverer at3 4s, Toyo Open Country AT III, or falken wildpeak at3w p rated). from my calculations cutting the front bumper should improve the approach angle from 21 degrees to about 25-27 degrees. note that a 2" lift and 33" tires should make the approach angle about 25 degrees (from what i can tell this is the go to modification on this forum).

my concern with modifying the vehicle is that it will get out of hand and i'll make it undrivable on the road which is what i use it for 90% of the time. i am contemplating replacing my current manual before california outlaws selling new gas cars in 2035 but i'd rather wait a couple of years before i pull the trigger.

questions:

1. any regrets using the family car as an off roader? or has it worked out great?
2. how easy is it for a build to get out of hand?
3. would cutting the front bumper 6", sliders, and light duty AT tires be sufficient for easy to moderate trails? would there be a dramatic increase in cabin noise? i do not want to lift the vehicle or put on larger tires.
4. puncturing the oil pan seems like a game over event. is the stock skid plate sufficient for the sierras and the desert? aka has anyone punctuated the oil pan when running the stock skid plate on easy to moderate trails?
5. my limited understanding is that the following mods require upgrading the suspension: front/rear bumpers, extended gas tank, winch, and big tires (33"+). are there other modifications that require upgrading the suspension?

 

[JDUB fab]

1. NO. The very reason I got into the GX platform.
2. Very. But worth it. Once you really start off-roading you’ll see the rabbit hole is real.
3. Armor makes a big difference, I’d recommend some good skids be added to your list. A moderate decent lift will only make the ride better. I’d recommend a slightly larger tire. These rigs defentily need more clearance below. The KDSS s*** hangs low in the front.
4. Not sure but guessing the stock skids won’t hold up to much.
5. You don’t “nessisarily” have to increase height, just increase spring rate. The added acutremon will sag the front end so you would definitely want to compensate for that at the least.

FWIW with a moderate lift, adjustable UCAs and a slightly taller tire but (skinnier) you can avoid a lot of the BMC chopping if you want. My recommendation would be to start with armor and aggressive tires, as your appetite for adventure increases, so will your modifications.

Always remember, lift only cleares tires at ride height and does nothing to change the position of the wheel when cycaling through the suspension. Lifts don’t clear tires, chopping and position do lol. I’ve seen people with 285s and no lift.. the problem with your scenario is the added weight. I have 2” Dobinson springs and the +1 extended travel shocks, but currently have 0 lift in the front because of the bumper, skids, sliders and winch. (Will be upgrading springs ASA{can afford})

Welcome to the fold

 

[sedonut]

The GX is a reasonably capable platform. The question is are you willing to trash a almost new luxury SUV offroad?

Personally I would get something less valuable where I would not cringe when I returned with desert pin-striping that would not polish out, or much worse.

It's your money. I hear the Bentley Bentayga is fairly capable off road also, or is that your primary driver?

 

[ducktapeguy]

If you're new to offroading, I'd just keep driving it until you know the limitations, then start upgrading when you need it. You will find out pretty quickly what needs to be upgraded after a few trips.

GX is great all around vehicle, but any mod you do is going to reduce the drivability to some extent. If you have other vehicles as daily drivers, that's the best option because then you don't have to worry about making compromises when modding it. I've taken mine to all the same place you've mentioned, and over time have done most of the mods you've listed, but mine is strictly a vacation/camping vehicle there are some things I know I'm giving up but the benefits outweigh the negatives.

In stock form, it's very capable but the biggest limitations are the ground clearance and approach angles. Once you start adding a lift, skids, sliders, larger tires, etc, gas mileage suffers a lot. Handling hasn't really changed much, but you do notice the extra weight. For highway driving it isn't too noticeable, but you won't be doing any canyon carving in a built GX, even with the KDSS

Very easy for a build to get out of hand, so it's important to figure out what you really want/need before just randomly buying stuff. For fire roads and forest service roads no mods are needed, but if you actually want to start doing any type of trails, then you'll be damaging body work quickly. For easy/moderate trails, you could easily just do a bumper chop and some better tires and stop there. But, the stock side step and skids are not going to hold up very long once you start hitting rocky trails, one trip to DV pretty much mangled mine beyond use. So figure out the end goal or the hardest trails you want to do and then start building up to it.

One good thing about having a full set of steel skids is the piece of mind they give you. On stock skids before lift I was always slowly crawling at 5-10 mph while picking my lines carefully because every hit on the undercarriage caused a spike in blood pressure. With a full set of skids and some lift you are a lot more relaxed and can move a lot faster. I have run the Mojave road and come across someone who punctured their oil pan on a large rock in the middle of the trail. Based on the trail of oil I was following I don't think the owner realized it until the engine must have locked up, so a set of skids is cheap by comparison.

As for off camber, it feels a lot scarier than it really is. Trust me you will chicken out way before nearing the limit of what the GX can do. After being on some off camber sections where i thought for sure I'd be flopping on it's side, after looking at the pictures it's pretty obvious that I'm nowhere near the tipping point. It just takes some practice to know how far you can go.

In theory you should upgrade the suspension after adding any significant amount of weight, but really the stock suspension will handle it just fine for a long time. I've been to almost every place you listed on a stock suspension (even towing a trailer) and aside from the ground clearance issues there wasn't much of a problem.

 

[ypyun]

@JDUB fab by skinny do you mean 255s or something really skinny like 245/235? i could increase the tire size to 265/65r18. i think i read somewhere that the speedo is fast. does increasing the ground clearance by half an inch make that much of a difference?

@sedonut i thought people did what you are describing when they are building a rock crawler which isn't my intent. i kinda get your sentiment around treating luxury cars nice. the people i know who do that usually are leasing a german car. they are always worried the dealer will charge them for the scratches. i did not lease or finance the car so i'm not as worried. personally i'm fine with a few battle scars as long as the vehicle gets me home in one piece. then again maybe i'm just an idiot and don't realize yet how much damage the desert can do to a car.

@ducktapeguy have you noticed a dramatic increase in cabin noise after making your modifications? looks like you have a lift, ko2, and a bumper chop?

 

[JDUB fab]

@JDUB fab by skinny do you mean 255s or something really skinny like 245/235? i could increase the tire size to 265/65r18. i think i read somewhere that the speedo is fast. does increasing the ground clearance by half an inch make that much of a difference?

You can definitely fit 265/65/18s without a lift or further modifications ( I believe) that's definitely what I was referring to. I personally wouldn't go any skinnier than 265, some people like "pizza cutters" as they say at 255. Any and all ground clearance makes a difference lol, the biggest increase to traction is going to come from a more aggressive AT tread.

 

[Rednexus]

My GX is my DD and a family car. I also take it off-roading, maybe 1-2X a month. A few thoughts:

1. Off-roading or even soft-roading gets vehicles really dirty. It's problematic with my GX when I get it covered with mud and then have my kids climb in it - or myself. Saturday's mud is now getting you and your kids dirty on Monday, unless you take the time to wash it off. Sometimes I have time to do this, sometimes I don't.
2. My mods are limited to a lift, wheels/tires, skid plates, rock sliders, and some other misc. stuff. None of these mods affected the DD/family aspect of the GX in any way, with the exception of minor amounts of tire noise.
3. My kids love riding in the GX, whether off-road or just driving around.
4. The overall size of the GX is perfect for a family vehicle.
5. Off-roading a new $70K vehicle is a personal decision, especially since many of the modifications may void the warranty. I would personally not take the route, and bought a 14 y/o GX instead of a $50K+ TRD T4R so I could get it dirty, use it off road, and not care if it gets scratched. My GX has lots of pinstripes from branches/etc and a few scuffs from hitting rocks. This is NBD to me, but might be for others. From a financial standpoint, I can't help but how the reduction in resale from beating up a new GX compares to the cost of buying an older GX/T4R, keeping the new one nice, and beating the the older one instead. Mod costs are the same between a new GX and an older GX/T4R.

 

[MrTorgue]

It's your money. I hear the Bentley Bentayga is fairly capable off road also, or is that your primary driver?

Not going to lie, I’d buy one of these in a nanosecond. They are brilliant. I’d have to raptor line it though if I was going to take it off-road.

 

[Banandalorian]

It really depends on what level of off road capability you're looking for. If you want a rock crawler, go find a 2 door Wrangler. If you want to improve the GX's capability, you can do that without ruining it but you'll need to research and plan. It's easy to fall down the rabbit hole with these trucks as one thing (like upsizing tires) leads to several other things (like the spare not fitting so I now need a swingout carrier)

Any time you're cutting bodywork, lifting, getting bigger tires, etc there's going to be some impact compared to a stock vehicle. Much of that NVH impact may be covered up because the GX is well insulated against road noise, but you would certainly tell a difference driving a stock vs modified GX back to back.

 

[sedonut]

@ MrTorgue
I'd buy a Bentley too, but I am not a Bitcoin billionaire and daddy did not leave me any money.
I'm still making payments on the 2018 GX460 I bought used.

 

[MrTorgue]

@ MrTorgue
I'd buy a Bentley too, but I am not a Bitcoin billionaire and daddy did not leave me any money.
I'm still making payments on the 2018 GX460 I bought used.

I’m neither of those either. It was a fun exercise.

 

[ducktapeguy]

@ducktapeguy have you noticed a dramatic increase in cabin noise after making your modifications? looks like you have a lift, ko2, and a bumper chop?

I wouldn’t call it a dramatic increase but definitely noticeable. Any mod you do to make it more off road capable is going to also make it a little less road friendly. You need to decide how much capability you need vs. how much discomfort you’re willing to tolerate. Im probably somewhat immune to cabin noise and handling issues since I also drive an old FJ40 and jeep, so no matter what I do the GX sounds absolutely quiet to my ears.

As Banandalorian mentioned the GX is already pretty well insulated, even after all the mods is still quieter than my Subaru Outback.

 

[r2m]

questions:

1. any regrets using the family car as an off roader? or has it worked out great?
2. how easy is it for a build to get out of hand?
3. would cutting the front bumper 6", sliders, and light duty AT tires be sufficient for easy to moderate trails? would there be a dramatic increase in cabin noise? i do not want to lift the vehicle or put on larger tires.
4. puncturing the oil pan seems like a game over event. is the stock skid plate sufficient for the sierras and the desert? aka has anyone punctuated the oil pan when running the stock skid plate on easy to moderate trails?
5. my limited understanding is that the following mods require upgrading the suspension: front/rear bumpers, extended gas tank, winch, and big tires (33"+). are there other modifications that require upgrading the suspension?

Hi ypyun. First off, I'm just a county south of you in San Clemente, right next to Camp Pendleton and If you go to my build thread: Builds - R2M 2013 GX460 Overland Build - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/r2m-2013-gx460-overland-build.1104719/
you'll see about how far you can take a build.
So to your questions:

1. NO regrets building this. I have a daughter and granddaughter that were living with us till a few months ago so we're used to needing it for family and Costco runs. If I didn't have so much gear on my rear MOLLE quarter panels I'd still have no problem using the third row seats but for now they usually stay down. I still can use the third row seats but I'd have to take some gear off the panels for them to go up.
2. Plan your build! Except for this GX which I had most of it done all at one time, I usually plan all my build in stages. This GX is my third overland build.
   • First stage: wheels and tires.
   • Second stage: suspension/lift (depending upon how large your new tires are, you may need the suspension sooner rather than later.
   • Third stage: For me it's been regearing the differentials and adding locking diff's, both front and rear.
   • Third stage optional: if not doing gears and lockers, under carriage armor, e.g. skid plates and rock/rail sliders.
   • Fourth stage: bumpers, tire carrier if you want that.
   • Fourth stage optional: would be roof racks.
   • Fifth stage: electronics, e.g. auxiliary lighting, HAM radio, winch, more power sockets (USB, 12 VDC), etc.
3. YES that would be fine for most of what we have here in So. Cal., but as mentioned above, get some under carriage protection. All Terrain tires, especially BFG are extremely quiet! I just mounted some on last week (BFG 315/70/R17 KO2 A/T) from Costco. This past weekend we (the whole family) had to go up to San Francisco for a family memorial. Those tires were awesome and quiet!! I always run BFG's and usually on my rig I go with KM2's Mud Terrains, which are pretty quiet until they get about half worn then they get noisy.
4. We belong to a 4x4 club down here in Orange County and we do ALL that! Mojave Road, Anza Borrego, Big Bear, Death Valley, and the list goes on. Out club will have runs that range form full rock crawling (which I leave to the Jeeps with 37" tires) to overlanding day and weekend trips. Some as easy that a stock 4x4 vehicle can do and can range all the way to rock crawling. We always pre-qualify what the run is like so no one gets caught with the wrong rig on the wrong trail run. So the short answer is unless you ONLY want to do fire roads, get some armor. You may never need it or very rarely, but it's like your spare tire and jack, good to have.
5. First, 33" tires are not big. But I guess it's all relative. Second YES you will need to do or have done what's called a Body Mount Cut/Chop (BMC). This has to be done on both 4Runners and GX's because the Toyota engineers decided to have part of it intrude into the front wheel well. So when these vehicles add larger tires that's the first thing that rubs. It's kind of like tonsils, it sounds bad removing them but most everyone winds up doing it with never a regret.

 

[ypyun]

@r2m looks like ko2 has a warranty of 50k. does that mean they start making noise after about 25k?

 

[r2m]

@r2m looks like ko2 has a warranty of 50k. does that mean they start making noise after about 25k?

The KO2 All Terrains never really make noise during the life of the tire, it's just the KM2 Mud Terrains. Most mud terrains start out noisy and if they are quiet when new they will get loud as they wear down.
Most all terrain's are pretty quiet, some more than others. I think the BFG KO2's are among the most quiet.

 

[Littlehouse]

Hi ypyun. First off, I'm just a county south of you in San Clemente, right next to Camp Pendleton and If you go to my build thread: Builds - R2M 2013 GX460 Overland Build - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/r2m-2013-gx460-overland-build.1104719/
you'll see about how far you can take a build.
So to your questions:

1. NO regrets building this. I have a daughter and granddaughter that were living with us till a few months ago so we're used to needing it for family and Costco runs. If I didn't have so much gear on my rear MOLLE quarter panels I'd still have no problem using the third row seats but for now they usually stay down. I still can use the third row seats but I'd have to take some gear off the panels for them to go up.
2. Plan your build! Except for this GX which I had most of it done all at one time, I usually plan all my build in stages. This GX is my third overland build.
   • First stage: wheels and tires.
   • Second stage: suspension/lift (depending upon how large your new tires are, you may need the suspension sooner rather than later.
   • Third stage: For me it's been regearing the differentials and adding locking diff's, both front and rear.
   • Third stage optional: if not doing gears and lockers, under carriage armor, e.g. skid plates and rock/rail sliders.
   • Fourth stage: bumpers, tire carrier if you want that.
   • Fourth stage optional: would be roof racks.
   • Fifth stage: electronics, e.g. auxiliary lighting, HAM radio, winch, more power sockets (USB, 12 VDC), etc.
3. YES that would be fine for most of what we have here in So. Cal., but as mentioned above, get some under carriage protection. All Terrain tires, especially BFG are extremely quiet! I just mounted some on last week (BFG 315/70/R17 KO2 A/T) from Costco. This past weekend we (the whole family) had to go up to San Francisco for a family memorial. Those tires were awesome and quiet!! I always run BFG's and usually on my rig I go with KM2's Mud Terrains, which are pretty quiet until they get about half worn then they get noisy.
4. We belong to a 4x4 club down here in Orange County and we do ALL that! Mojave Road, Anza Borrego, Big Bear, Death Valley, and the list goes on. Out club will have runs that range form full rock crawling (which I leave to the Jeeps with 37" tires) to overlanding day and weekend trips. Some as easy that a stock 4x4 vehicle can do and can range all the way to rock crawling. We always pre-qualify what the run is like so no one gets caught with the wrong rig on the wrong trail run. So the short answer is unless you ONLY want to do fire roads, get some armor. You may never need it or very rarely, but it's like your spare tire and jack, good to have.
5. First, 33" tires are not big. But I guess it's all relative. Second YES you will need to do or have done what's called a Body Mount Cut/Chop (BMC). This has to be done on both 4Runners and GX's because the Toyota engineers decided to have part of it intrude into the front wheel well. So when these vehicles add larger tires that's the first thing that rubs. It's kind of like tonsils, it sounds bad removing them but most everyone winds up doing it with never a regret.

What club are you in? I'm in Irvine and would love to get my GX off the pavement sometime. BFG KOs is the only change at the moment, so it has to be pretty tame.

 

[Banandalorian]

The KO2 All Terrains never really make noise during the life of the tire, it's just the KM2 Mud Terrains. Most mud terrains start out noisy and if they are quiet when new they will get loud as they wear down.
Most all terrain's are pretty quiet, some more than others. I think the BFG KO2's are among the most quiet.

My Pirelli ATs make about the same noise as the Ironman "highway SUV" tires I replaced. They sound different at low speed because larger/deeper tread blocks, sound basically the same at highway speed, and are actually quieter over rough pavement. Replacing a better highway SUV tire like a Pirelli or a Michelin might create more of a difference but you'd need to be pretty keyed into NVH to notice

 

[r2m]

What club are you in? I'm in Irvine and would love to get my GX off the pavement sometime. BFG KOs is the only change at the moment, so it has to be pretty tame.

Capo Valley 4 Wheelers

Capo Valley 4 Wheelers, the #1 Orange County, CA Off Road 4x4 Club! Founded in 1979, CV4W is a family-oriented, environmentally sensitive group of four wheeling enthusiasts whose mission is to foster camaraderie, share experience, and promote the sport of four wheeling.

www.cv4w.org

The club has been around sine the early 1990's, has a little over 50 members and meets the first Wednesday of the month at Hennessey's Tavern in Dana Point.

Dana Point — Hennessey's Tavern

Indoor or Outdoor Dining, Takeout & Delivery | Open Daily 8am-2am | 34111 La Plaza, Dana Point, CA 92629 | (949) 488-0121

www.hennesseystavern.com

We will do everything from rock crawling to overlanding and everything in between. Day trips, weekend trips, sometimes a little longer, so you don't need a fully built rig to have fun. We will qualify you (and your rig) to ensure you don't get in over your head on too difficult of a trail run. We're mostly Jeeps, but have a few Toyota's.
We're NOT the type of party crowd that has a beer in one hand while holding the steering wheel with the other and yelling "Watch this!!" as they roll or wreck their rig!
We have fun and enjoy some adult beverages around a camp fire after a long day of wheeling, but we neither get stupid nor condone stupid drunkenness or drugs. I joined because it is family friendly where I can bring my daughter and granddaughter on runs.
We just got a new member with a GX470!
You are very welcome to come check us out!

 

[Littlehouse]

Capo Valley 4 Wheelers

Capo Valley 4 Wheelers, the #1 Orange County, CA Off Road 4x4 Club! Founded in 1979, CV4W is a family-oriented, environmentally sensitive group of four wheeling enthusiasts whose mission is to foster camaraderie, share experience, and promote the sport of four wheeling.

www.cv4w.org

The club has been around sine the early 1990's, has a little over 50 members and meets the first Wednesday of the month at Hennessey's Tavern in Dana Point.

Dana Point — Hennessey's Tavern

Indoor or Outdoor Dining, Takeout & Delivery | Open Daily 8am-2am | 34111 La Plaza, Dana Point, CA 92629 | (949) 488-0121

www.hennesseystavern.com

We will do everything from rock crawling to overlanding and everything in between. Day trips, weekend trips, sometimes a little longer, so you don't need a fully built rig to have fun. We will qualify you (and your rig) to ensure you don't get in over your head on too difficult of a trail run. We're mostly Jeeps, but have a few Toyota's.
We're NOT the type of party crowd that has a beer in one hand while holding the steering wheel with the other and yelling "Watch this!!" as they roll or wreck their rig!
We have fun and enjoy some adult beverages around a camp fire after a long day of wheeling, but we neither get stupid nor condone stupid drunkenness or drugs. I joined because it is family friendly where I can bring my daughter and granddaughter on runs.
We just got a new member with a GX470!
You are very welcome to come check us out!

Awesome, sounds like it's right up my alley. Thanks!

 

[SkiBikePlay]

I have modified my 2018 GX460 and a 2009 4Runner as daily drivers and off-road adventures (hunt, skiing & fishing). R2M's list above is solid. My only tweak is to add MTS and Crawl Control to maximize your GX's potential and your abilities. I would recommend starting with +1 tires and a moderate lift and then re-evaluating based upon how you actually use the GX. I had a 3"/2" ToyTec Ultimate lift on my 4Runner but found it too high 98% of the time and it only benefited me a few days per year. I changed to Old Man Emu 2" after my Bilstein shocks failed and I am very happy 5 years later. My GX has 1.5" front spacer lift maintaining the Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS) dampening and 0.75" rear "Airbag Trick". The airbags on-demand give me another 1.75" when needed off road, but I can still lower the rear end an inch+ for my wife and mother in-law to enter and exit the GX.

GX 460 Build: Wheels/Tires: FN xPro wheels 17"x8" with +1 Winter/Snow Bridgestone Blizzak 265/70/17
Crawl Control and MTS upgrades. Shift Power Throttle Control.
1.5" Lift: Leveling kit and Airbag Sensor Trick by "Mr Garage", Window tint, Red Tail-Lights vinyl, LED internal lights.