Once again, the Group III comments about Mobil 1 are pure speculation and not supported by any evidence. Rumor's do not make facts. Can you provide any FACTS to support your above statement, or are you just spreading the same unfounded crap?
Mobil 1 - true synthetic or not???
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Once again, the Group III comments about Mobil 1 are pure speculation and not supported by any evidence. Rumor's do not make facts. Can you provide any FACTS to support your above statement, or are you just spreading the same unfounded crap?
FirstToy,
Save yourself some time and call Mobil directly. They will either verbally assure you of their oil's makeup or refer you to a web description. They have an excellent customer service line - if you ask to speak to a tech or engineer they'll connect you through.
DougM
Save yourself some time and call Mobil directly. They will either verbally assure you of their oil's makeup or refer you to a web description. They have an excellent customer service line - if you ask to speak to a tech or engineer they'll connect you through.
DougM
still sore about brake fluid?
There are Group III full syn's. I posted stuff to add to discussion, not "spread crap"
_______________________________________
All Synthetics Are NOT Created Equal
In the past, it was always believed that purchasing a synthetic oil meant just that, you were buying an oil that was man made rather than a petroleum that was pumped out of the ground. Towards the end of the 1990s this all changed with the reformulation of Castrol Syntec. They had changed their formula from a PAO base stock, which was one of the most commonly used base stocks at the time, to a petroleum base that had gone through a process called Hydrocracking. This process refines the oil very well, to a point that Castrol called it a Synthetic. While doing some testing Mobil discovered the formula change and took Castrol to court claiming that they were false advertising the oil as a Synthetic, since it's base stock was made from a petroleum. Mobil's stand basically said that a "synthetic" oil is something man made in a lab to certain specification that cannot be found in nature that way, which was the common thought even consumers had at the time. Castrol's stand was that this process the oil went through was so refined that it no longer resembled anything in nature, therefore it was a "synthetic." Because the API couldn't come up with a good definition of a synthetic themselves, they accepted Castrol's definition.
This type of oil was less costly to produce than the PAO based synthetics (although it has been effected by the rising petroleum costs of the past few years). Unfortunately the consumer never benefited from the lower manufacturing costs, and it seems the oil manufacturers most likely made a bigger profit from each sale. This has now changed how oil is made and sold, and it's classification. There are five Groups of oils. Group I rarely is used anymore, while Group II is your common petroleum oil. This "hydrocracked" oil is commonly referred to as a Group III oil, while the PAO synthetics are a Group IV. Group V oils do exist, but are uncommon, and typically not often used for automotive use.
From the information given to me last, EVERY synthetic on the market today has converted over to this Group III oil, with the exception of most of the Amsoil line, Mobil 1, and a few other specialty oils, usually more difficult to find. Amsoil's XL line of oil is a Group III oil. It is not designed for the extended drains that their other lines are, therefore, the Group III formula is perfect for it's recommended drain interval. When this oil became a Group III oil, Amsoil did lower their price, unlike the competition. Amsoil's standard 25,000 mile oil and their Series 2000 is a Group IV "Genuine PAO Formulated Synthetic" oil.
Yet there are differences between the Group III oil qualities as well. Many manufacturers purchase a base stock that is refined just enough to push it out of a Group II classification and into the Group III where they can call it a synthetic and charge the higher price. In many cases, these oils are not much better than a quality Group II oil. In the case of the Amsoil XL oils, Amsoil purchases the highest quality Group III base stock available. This is one of the reasons it performs so well.
Group III oils have been around for a few years now, and are being used in other applications as well, such as Transmission Fluids and Gear Lubes, however, as time continues, it is being found and noted that they do not last as well as the PAO Synthetics. And this seems logical, it is still a Petroleum based oil, and suffers the same breakdown temps as the less refined Group II oils. For this reason, these fluids are being beefed up with additives. But rather than slowly breaking down over time, like the Group IV fluids, these fluids tend to remain stable until the additives wear out and rapidly drop in their performance and protection. For this reason, many vehicle manufacturers who were putting a synthetic into their products for the added protection, are finding that they are not getting what they expected, and it is predicted that many future Owner's Manuals will stop requiring merely a "synthetic" oil, but specify a Group IV synthetic.
Below are some comparisons of oils you might now even be using. This data was compiled in the Spring of 2003 by Amsoil Dealer George Kimball. Note how each rates, the "base" the oil really is, and the cost comparison of using a superior product: Amsoil!
COMMON 5W-30 SYNTHETIC OILS*
Product
Name Base Viscosity
Index Pour Point
°C (°F) Volatility %
Weight Loss Four Ball Wear TBN Service Life Suggested
Cost (Qt) Cost/
10 Miles
Para. 1 Para. 3
Amsoil
XL (XLF) Group III/
Hydrocracked 196 -51 (-60) 8.8% 0.35 0.38 10.1 7500 Miles/
6 Months $5.20 4.0 cents
Amsoil
(ASL) Group IV/
PAO 182 -51 (-60) 6.9% 0.35 0.40 >11.0 25,000 Miles/
1 Year $5.85 2.6 cents
Mobil 1 Group IV/
PAO 168 -48 (-54) 9.2% 0.35 0.60 8.5 Mfg. Rec. $4.78 3.7 cents
Pennzoil
Synthetic Group II/
Hydrocracked 161 -48 (-54) 5.7% 0.40 0.60 10.0 Mfg. Rec. $4.49 3.6 cents
Valvoline
SynPower Group III/
Hydrocracked 164 -44 (-47) 13.1% 0.35 0.55 8.9 Mfg. Rec. $4.48 3.6 cents
Castrol
Syntec Group III/
Hydrocracked 147 -39 (-38) 10.0% 0.40 0.61 10.0 Mfg. Rec. $4.47 3.6 cents
Quaker
State
Full Synthetic Group III/
Hydrocracked 183 -46 (-51) 10.2% 0.35 0.55 7.7 Mfg. Rec. $3.97 3.2 cents
COMMON 10W-30 SYNTHETIC OILS*
Product
Name Base Viscosity
Index Volatility %
Weight Loss Four Ball Wear TBN Service Life Suggested
Cost (Qt) Cost/
10 Miles
Amsoil
XL (XLT) Group III/
Hydrocracked 163 4.7% .038 10.2 7500 Miles/
6 Months $5.20 4.0 cents
Amsoil
(ASL) Group IV/
PAO 167 6.6% 0.35 >12.2 25,000 Miles/
1 Year $5.85 2.6 cents
Mobil 1 Group IV/
PAO 147 11.1% 0.35 8.5 5000 Miles $4.78 5.4 cents
Castrol Group II/
Hydrocracked 159 5.47% 6.81 5000 Miles $4.48 5.1 cents
Shell Group III/
Hydrocracked 140 5000 Miles $4.97 5.6 cents
Pennzoil Group III/
Hydrocracked 150 9.5% 0.65 7.18 5000 Miles $4.49 5.1 cents
Valvoline Group III/
Hydrocracked 140 8.3% 0.40 6.85 5000 Miles $4.48 5.1 cents
Havoline Group III/
Hydrocracked 148 5000 Miles $3.48 4.1 cents
Quaker State Group III/
Hydrocracked 148 12.27% 5000 Miles $3.97 4.6 cents
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1) BMW has its own oil specs. They are BMW Long Life (LL). There have been three standards LL-98, LL-01, and LL-04. BMW LL-98 allows for Group III hydrocracked oils, but LL-01 is stricter and only allows for Group IV or Group V based oils. LL-04 is very new, designed for primarly diesels in Europe and no oils sold in the US actually are LL-04 approved (Amsoil doesn't count as they claim their oil meets the standard, but it isn't approved).
2) The proper oil for all climates is an oil that meets BMW LL-01 or better. There are only three oils that actually meet this spec widely available in the US. Mobil 1 0w-40, Valvoline 5w-40 Synpower, and Castrol 0w-30 (you have to be careful with the Castrol, there are two versions out there, the one you want will say on the back in little writing that it is made in Germany, and will specifically list the BMW spec, Mercedes 229.3 & 229.5 and ACEA A3).
3) All BMW Long Life oils are ACEA A3 oils. An ACEA A3 oil means that it has a high temp high shear (HTHS @ 150c) of more than 3.5. Note that A3 is mutually exclusive of ACEA A1 & A5. A1 & A5 oils have an HTHS of less than 3.5. A5 is simply a newer and stricter standard of A1, so if an oil is A5 rated than it is also A1 rated. NOT ALL A3 OILS ARE BMW LL OILS, ONLY THOSE SPECIFICALLY LABLED AS SUCH.
4) Mobil 1 30 weight oils are not A3 or LL approved. So the next question that will be asked is why does BMW USA recommend them? It is because they never have updated their recomendation from the 90's when Mobil 1 was available in the US in either 30 or 50 weight. There was no 0w-40 then. THE ONLY MOBIL 1 OIL THAT IS BMW LL APPROVED IS THE 0W-40.
5) Don't get to hung up on weight. 30 weight oil runs from about 9.5-12.5 cst at 100c. Mobil 1 30 weights are forumlated on the light end of the 30 weight scale at about 10.5 cst, so are nearly 20 weight. By contrast BMW's relabled Castrol 30 weight is about 12.2 cst, which is nearly a 40 weight. As a rule of thumb, Mobil formulates on the light end of any grade, Amsoil on the heavy end.
6) Redline is a great race oil. For street use it does not work well for extended intervals. The problem is that their chemestry is very old and the oil tends to oxidate quickly and generate higher wear number than Mobil 1 or Amsoil when used in street vehicles.
7) The best widely available oils for your BMW. 1) Mobil 1 0w-40, 2) BMW 5w30 synth. Why the Group III BMW oil when it is only LL-98 approved instead of the better LL-01? It is because the 15k interval used by BMW is to far for even Mobil 1 oils under most conditions, so either oil should be changed at 10k or less intervals. As it is easiest to just change once between the indicator lights (about 7.5k miles) the advantage that Group IV oils have over the BMW labled oils are largely negated.
8) You want Mobil 1 0w-40 but cant find it. Mobil 1 5w-40 Truck and SUV will work fine. Note it is not not BMW LL approved or ACEA A3 rated, but meets the spec with an HTHS of 4.1.
To answer the specific questions of the poster. The Amsoil 0w-30 is a good oil BUT DOES NOT MEET ACEA A3 OR BMW LL-01 SPECS. The Amsoil that claims it meets BMW LL-01 and ACEA A3 is the 5w-40 (note they don't have the approvals, likely because of the cost of obtaining them). There is no point in running Mobil 1 15w-50, all it will do is give you lower gas mileage and no real increase in protection. Also, the BMW Vanos system doesn't like 50 weight oils. I ran 15w-50 for years in my wifes M50 motor 525i and then switched to 0w-40. I found the car had less startup noise, got about 1mpg more on average, and oil consuption dropped from 1 quart every 1500 miles to 1 quart every 4-5000 miles."
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The answer is right there in the article you posted.
so Mobil one uses a synthetic base oil, specifically PolyAlphaOlefin
The info on the Castrol national mediation board fiasco is well known.
BTW, Chevron Supreme is a very good mineral oil.
so Mobil one uses a synthetic base oil, specifically PolyAlphaOlefin
The info on the Castrol national mediation board fiasco is well known.
BTW, Chevron Supreme is a very good mineral oil.
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I'm just curious - where or who is this information from? I have no feelings either way, but posting something like that without attribution is one reason the 'net is excellent at spreading rumor and bs. No big deal if it's merely a thread on a forum, but if that's the case again I refer you to calling the mfrs to get the actual verifiable facts as to their base stocks, etc.
Also kind of amusing that in the "Amsoil cost comparison" the Amsoil is credited with lasting 25,000 miles but the Mobil 1 synth seems to have been credited with only 5000 miles so it comes out more expensive ownership cost wise. Duh. Anecdotally, my Blackstone test showed I could run M1 over 10,000 miles and I personally would not run any oil 25k miles. Also, the test was apparently funded/performed by an Amsoil dealer??
Use quality oil, synth if you're anal and put quality filters on at proper intervals with changes and you'll get 500,000 miles out of the 4.5L Toyota TwinCam.
DougM
Also kind of amusing that in the "Amsoil cost comparison" the Amsoil is credited with lasting 25,000 miles but the Mobil 1 synth seems to have been credited with only 5000 miles so it comes out more expensive ownership cost wise. Duh. Anecdotally, my Blackstone test showed I could run M1 over 10,000 miles and I personally would not run any oil 25k miles. Also, the test was apparently funded/performed by an Amsoil dealer??
Use quality oil, synth if you're anal and put quality filters on at proper intervals with changes and you'll get 500,000 miles out of the 4.5L Toyota TwinCam.
DougM
an interesting comparison between Amsoil and Mobil,
both made it well past 10K, neither would make it to 25K,
Mobil
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html
Amsoil
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/amsoil.html
both made it well past 10K, neither would make it to 25K,
Mobil
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html
Amsoil
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/amsoil.html
Doug,
my first post, which Cary attacked, has definitions of Groups and PAO's. I thought it would add to the discussion. I titled it I found this-but don't know if it's outdated
I also have the Wiki link w/ more definitions of the Groups and PAO's.
The Chevron Group II and III qualifying as GF-4 w/ additives is from Chevron and reported in Lube News. I thought that was interesting, not agreeing one way or the other.
My statement -
"They way I understood it is-(I don't even pretend to be an oil student- Costco Chevron Supreme is fine for me- maybe the experts can decipher it all)
Mobil 1 is a Group III base w/ PAO's added. It is not a PAO base stock like true Group IV oils. " - That is what I thought, in other words, "The way I understood Mobil 1 oil to be is... but I don't even pretend to know...maybe the experts [here] can decipher it-
The "All Synthetics Are NOT Created Equal" is from Amsoil's tech section
the BMW stuff is from a BMW thread
I am not agreeing or disagreeing w/ what Mobil 1 is or isn't. I'm just trying to talk about it... So I
because I posted something agreeing with Cary with actual data from a Mobil 1 competitor as well as more bolstering from a BMW forum. Cary's just sore and assumes I'm attacking him which I have to
I don't know a lot about oils but it's an interesting topic, thought definitions and some reading would be OK.
Like I said, I could care less if M1 is a GIII or IV base. I use it in my car b/c I feel it's good protection for a turbo engine. The Cruiser gets Chev Supreme (which I also stated). A really good, cheap oil I get from Costco or, thanks to a coupon, great deal at Kragen.
OK, What about Royal Purple 15W40 instead of Red Line 15W40 ? This local shop I mentioned had a boat load of their in his shop too.
This is from Royal Purple's website :
"3FOR USE IN BOTH GASOLINE AND DIESEL ENGINES
4MEETS DDC POWERGUARD 93K214 AND CUMMINS 20078 REQUIREMENTS AND VOLVO VDS-3"
Do they (Royal Purple) not use moly (the stuff that gums up the cats) to just like Red Line?
Do people using moly based diesel oils in gasoline engines remove their cats and then put them back on just before an emissions test ?
Seems to me that the deisel engine oils are far superior as a lubricant compared to all the "automotive" oils for actual protection from engine wear.
still sore about brake fluid?
There are Group III full syn's. I posted stuff to add to discussion, not "spread crap"
_
1) BMW has its own oil specs. They are BMW Long Life (LL). There have been three standards LL-98, LL-01, and LL-04. BMW LL-98 allows for Group III hydrocracked oils, but LL-01 is stricter and only allows for Group IV or Group V based oils. LL-04 is very new, designed for primarly diesels in Europe and no oils sold in the US actually are LL-04 approved (Amsoil doesn't count as they claim their oil meets the standard, but it isn't approved).
2) The proper oil for all climates is an oil that meets BMW LL-01 or better. There are only three oils that actually meet this spec widely available in the US. Mobil 1 0w-40, Valvoline 5w-40 Synpower, and Castrol 0w-30 (you have to be careful with the Castrol, there are two versions out there, the one you want will say on the back in little writing that it is made in Germany, and will specifically list the BMW spec, Mercedes 229.3 & 229.5 and ACEA A3).
3) All BMW Long Life oils are ACEA A3 oils. An ACEA A3 oil means that it has a high temp high shear (HTHS @ 150c) of more than 3.5. Note that A3 is mutually exclusive of ACEA A1 & A5. A1 & A5 oils have an HTHS of less than 3.5. A5 is simply a newer and stricter standard of A1, so if an oil is A5 rated than it is also A1 rated. NOT ALL A3 OILS ARE BMW LL OILS, ONLY THOSE SPECIFICALLY LABLED AS SUCH.
4) Mobil 1 30 weight oils are not A3 or LL approved. So the next question that will be asked is why does BMW USA recommend them? It is because they never have updated their recomendation from the 90's when Mobil 1 was available in the US in either 30 or 50 weight. There was no 0w-40 then. THE ONLY MOBIL 1 OIL THAT IS BMW LL APPROVED IS THE 0W-40.
5) Don't get to hung up on weight. 30 weight oil runs from about 9.5-12.5 cst at 100c. Mobil 1 30 weights are forumlated on the light end of the 30 weight scale at about 10.5 cst, so are nearly 20 weight. By contrast BMW's relabled Castrol 30 weight is about 12.2 cst, which is nearly a 40 weight. As a rule of thumb, Mobil formulates on the light end of any grade, Amsoil on the heavy end.
6) Redline is a great race oil. For street use it does not work well for extended intervals. The problem is that their chemestry is very old and the oil tends to oxidate quickly and generate higher wear number than Mobil 1 or Amsoil when used in street vehicles.
7) The best widely available oils for your BMW. 1) Mobil 1 0w-40, 2) BMW 5w30 synth. Why the Group III BMW oil when it is only LL-98 approved instead of the better LL-01? It is because the 15k interval used by BMW is to far for even Mobil 1 oils under most conditions, so either oil should be changed at 10k or less intervals. As it is easiest to just change once between the indicator lights (about 7.5k miles) the advantage that Group IV oils have over the BMW labled oils are largely negated.
8) You want Mobil 1 0w-40 but cant find it. Mobil 1 5w-40 Truck and SUV will work fine. Note it is not not BMW LL approved or ACEA A3 rated, but meets the spec with an HTHS of 4.1.
To answer the specific questions of the poster. The Amsoil 0w-30 is a good oil BUT DOES NOT MEET ACEA A3 OR BMW LL-01 SPECS. The Amsoil that claims it meets BMW LL-01 and ACEA A3 is the 5w-40 (note they don't have the approvals, likely because of the cost of obtaining them). There is no point in running Mobil 1 15w-50, all it will do is give you lower gas mileage and no real increase in protection. Also, the BMW Vanos system doesn't like 50 weight oils. I ran 15w-50 for years in my wifes M50 motor 525i and then switched to 0w-40. I found the car had less startup noise, got about 1mpg more on average, and oil consuption dropped from 1 quart every 1500 miles to 1 quart every 4-5000 miles."
__________
Read my past writings about Group III v. Group IV & V oils, I have discussed the issue extensively.
BTW, I'm laughing my ass off. The big block of text you posted that I have quoted above, guess who the author is?
YEP, YOURS TRULY!!!!!!!!
OK, What about Royal Purple 15W40 instead of Red Line 15W40 ? This local shop I mentioned had a boat load of their in his shop too.
Do people using moly based diesel oils in gasoline engines remove their cats and then put them back on just before an emissions test ?
Seems to me that the deisel engine oils are far superior as a lubricant compared to all the "automotive" oils for actual protection from engine wear.
I'm am not a big fan of Royal Purple. Most of the their street oils are Group III based, sold at a premium price, and every UOA I have shown shows considerable shearing. The reason I recommend the Rotella T Synth 5w-40 is because is is a great Group III oil at a near mineral price ($13 per gallon). I recommend Mobil 1 because it is a Group IV oil that is widely available.
The problem companies like Amsoil, Redline and Royal Purple have is that it is very hard to be at the forefront of research and product development for small companies in making oils that meet the competing needs of modern engines (startup lube, fuel mileage needs, protect emissions equipment etc.). Also, they don't have the ability to develop new additives etc. (i.e. Mobil's proprietary Supersyn VI improver with VI in the 1000's vs. the competitors 100's).
Diesel oils are not a better lubercant, but traditionally have a beefier additive package to deal with the soot and other byproducts of diesel engines. This allowed them to hold up better in extended intervals and engines that tended to be hard on oils. This is slowing changing as oils become more specific.
Exactly why I switched to this oil.
The only problem with it is inside my head because I can't leave it in the crankcase longer than 3,000 miles....
How many miles inbetween are you suppose to change it?
UOA's have shown you can easily go 10,000 miles, it is likely given the sump size of the 80 and how easy it is on oils, that 15,000 miles would be fine, but I wouldn't suggest it without doing a UOA along the way at 12,500 miles.
Read my past writings about Group III v. Group IV & V oils, I have discussed the issue extensively.
BTW, I'm laughing my ass off. The big block of text you posted that I have quoted above, guess who the author is?
YEP, YOURS TRULY!!!!!!!!
Then why the F are you attacking me?? For posting definitions and relevant info? I'm over it
scottm
SILVER Star
I think it's the zinc that troubles cats, is Rotella safer than other diesel oils? I'm running it in all my cars, seems to help leaks and consumption vs M1.
At 60k miles, my 1FZ-FE was burning close to 1.5 quarts of 10w30 M1 every 5k miles. I switched to Rotella syn and later to Supertech syn with less than 0.5 qts of oil burned every 5k miles.
I'm using the Supertech syn right now.
I'm using the Supertech syn right now.
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still sore about brake fluid?
There are Group III full syn's. I posted stuff to add to discussion, not "spread crap"
Mobil 1 is a Group III base w/ PAO's added. It is not a PAO base stock like true Group IV oils. " - That is what I thought, in other words, "The way I understood Mobil 1 oil to be is... but I don't even pretend to know...maybe the experts [here] can decipher it-
I am not agreeing or disagreeing w/ what Mobil 1 is or isn't. I'm just trying to talk about it... So I
Cary's just sore and assumes I'm attacking him which I have to
I don't know a lot about oils but it's an interesting topic, thought definitions and some reading would be OK.
Like I said, I could care less if M1 is a GIII or IV base.
Then why the F are you attacking me?? For posting definitions and relevant info? I'm over it
It seems like you can't make up your mind as to where you stand. You made a claim that "Mobil 1 is a Group III base w/ PAO's added. It is not a PAO base stock like true Group IV oils. " There is no support for you claim so I addressed it. That isn't a personal attack. It seems like you are taking it pretty personally with your comment "still sore about brake fluid?
". Who is attacking who here?way to mislead and mix up my posts. "addressed my post" by saying I "spread crap"? just let it go.
_____________________________
I clearly seperated my comments and ones I posted of others.
-----------------------------------------
and then I went back and clarified everything I wrote.
------------------------------------
Everything I posted is either INFORMATION- Definitions of terms- or info that BACKS UP the claim Mobil 1 is a PAO.
________________________________
but thanks anyway, people can go back and read my posts. I'm not playing revisionist history games.
_____________________________
I clearly seperated my comments and ones I posted of others.
-----------------------------------------
and then I went back and clarified everything I wrote.
------------------------------------
Everything I posted is either INFORMATION- Definitions of terms- or info that BACKS UP the claim Mobil 1 is a PAO.
________________________________
but thanks anyway, people can go back and read my posts. I'm not playing revisionist history games.
Please tell me what was revised? Your first claim was clearly that Mobil 1 was a Group III oil, I called you on it and since I had already addressed it above, asked you not to spread speculative information that has no support. You then posted information that it is a Group IV PAO oil and changed your tune to say you supported that Mobil I is a PAO oil. Then you don't like my response so you claim that I am "attacking you".
Thanks Cary, guess I was being lazy. I even got the manufacture right. I had a picture of a the blue jug in my head and though "Mobile".
Slight hijack, but it seems like this thread could use it 
...
Hey Cary,
Is there any truth to the rumor (I'll dig up the post from another forum where I saw it, if necessary) that folks with pushrod engines need to start being very careful with their choice of oil, due to some certain additive being phased out of most brands?
Does that ring any bells? I know I'm being pretty vague; I'll see if I can find that post...
Curtis
...Hey Cary,
Is there any truth to the rumor (I'll dig up the post from another forum where I saw it, if necessary) that folks with pushrod engines need to start being very careful with their choice of oil, due to some certain additive being phased out of most brands?
Does that ring any bells? I know I'm being pretty vague; I'll see if I can find that post...
Curtis
