ML Simply Speaker speaker refoam part #... (1 Viewer)

[playdrv4me]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but for anyone reading this thread, please don't immediately take the post I quoted as fact. The Simply Speaker replacement surrounds are NOT foam, and will last a very long time.

To an earlier poster re/ disintegrating foam being a cause of poor sound.. The foam surround's two main purposes are to keep the voice coil centered so that it moves freely around the speaker magnet, which in turn moves the cone, which is what moves the air and creates sound. The foam also acts like a damping mechanism, similar to a shock absorber. It doesn't have anything directly to do w/ sound quality, but when it disintegrates the voice coil rubs against the magnet impeding motion, and the speaker also goes past it's design excursion parameters... like bottoming out when your shocks completely give up the ghost. Both of these things cause the buzzing and distortion you're hearing. Replacing that surround foam is a simple, easy process and will return your speakers to as-new performance, provided the voice coils aren't burnt out (and they probably are NOT... they're most likely fine).

Now, regarding the opinion stated above about the "garbage" status of the ML system. I could not disagree more strongly. If you're looking for body-shaking, mind-numbing bass that'll shake the other cars off the road, or ear-bleed-inducing screechy treble like most of the car audio systems I've heard, then yes, you may not like the ML system. However, if you listen to acoustic music, or any type of music where fidelity to the source is important to you, then the ML system is one of the best out there. My wife and I are both professional musicians, and her ONLY criteria for her next car is that it, too, has the ML system in it.

Sooo... like I said, everyone has opinions, and are definitely entitled to them. Form your own... fix your ML system and decide for yourself. I doubt VERY much that you'll consider it garbage, and I'm fairly sure you will appreciate it a great deal... and increasingly the more you listen.

If you actually care about fidelity and consider yourself an audiophile as I do the ML system is not up to par. The Nakamichi system in the last generation LS400 absolutely destroys it. Has nothing to do with wanting ghetto blaster levels of bass, but a properly sourced and installed aftermarket set of components even with the stock head unit and maybe the stock amplifiers can go a *long* way toward improving what's there . FWIW, this is coming from someone who owns or has owned Bowers and Wilkins Diamond 802, 803 and 804 speakers connected to McIntosh MC601 dual mono amplifiers, among dozens of other both inexpensive and upper end audio system components. (As a side note, the best factory system you can buy at any price right now is the B&W Diamond system in the current 7 Series and *only* that car unfortunately if you want the lauded Diamond tweeters. It's a 3300.00 option and worth every penny as it is absolutely sublime). However what is correct here is that everyone has different levels of quality they're willing to accept and be satisfied. That is different for every person.

As for the point about the material that is used in the refoam process, if you noticed I actually said that if it is foam the problem would re-occur within a matter of time. Not necessarily that is just foam. And if not, that's great.

 

[JaySleigher]

I just ponied-up for the kit. Looking forward to any improvement.

 

[MuseChaser]

If you actually care about fidelity and consider yourself an audiophile as I do the ML system is not up to par. The Nakamichi system in the last generation LS400 absolutely destroys it. Has nothing to do with wanting ghetto blaster levels of bass. FWIW, this is coming from someone who owns or has owned Bowers and Wilkins Diamond speakers connected to McIntosh MC601 dual mono amplifiers, among dozens of other both inexpensive and upper end audio system components. However what is correct here is that everyone has different levels of quality they're willing to accept and be satisfied. That is different for every person.

As for the point about the material that is used in the refoam process, if you noticed I actually said that if it is foam the problem would re-occur within a matter of time. Not necessarily that is just foam. And if not, that's great.

Thanks for the clarification, and I wish I had seen it before writing/editing my previous reply. The term "audiophile" is a difficult one for me to use in self-description, because so often that translates more into "gearophile" rather than someone who's desire is solely accurate acoustic musical reproduction. The gear you cited is, of course, excellent kit. I don't have the dough to play in that strata, so my stuff is either handbuilt or used; right now, for listening, a pair of Maggies powered by a Van Alstine hybrid gives me the most pleasure, but I master most of my recordings on a variety of rigs to ensure compatability and as natural a sound as possible with all types of speakers. Amplification is usually homebuilt Hafler and personally modded B&K ST140 amps. I can usually find things to like about any system... and things to dislike. It's ALL a compromise compared to the original live acoustic event.

I have not heard the Nak system in the LS400. It's undoubtedly excellent. You, obviously, prefer it a great deal over the ML. That's fine. Maybe I would too.. who knows. I DO know the ML system is beautiful sounding, and I've never enjoyed listening to music in my car as much as I do in my LX470. I also do know that swapping out the speakers w/ other drivers won't work in this system unless ALL of the speaker parameters (overall impedance, impedance curves, efficiency, thiele-small parameters, etc... ) are matched precisely for every driver in the system. Almost impossible to do.

I apologize for taking such a strong stance previously, and understand that you probably meant well. Your admonishing someone who came here for some guidance in redoing his surrounds that the whole system was "garbage" really wasn't called for, helpful, or accurate. That's all.

 

[MuseChaser]

...but a properly sourced and installed aftermarket set of components even with the stock head unit and maybe the stock amplifiers can go a *long* way toward improving what's there . FWIW, this is coming from someone who owns or has owned Bowers and Wilkins Diamond 802, 803 and 804 speakers connected to McIntosh MC601 dual mono amplifiers, among dozens of other both inexpensive and upper end audio system components....

Owning expensive and quality gear does not mean you understand how these specific car audio systems work. As I stated earlier, the ML system has EQ and loading circuits built in to their amps made to mate with these specific drivers. It's not switching out your Macs for Krells or your B&Ws for Wilson/WATTs at home... it's like pulling one driver from your Diamond and swapping in a Focal driver of the same size and saying it'll be better. Maybe you're into tube rolling (talking about amps... no slur or double entendre meant or implied, just for those who might not know what tube rolling is), and like to try Russian vs Chinese EL84s or whatever.. that's cool. Do you know enough to muck about inside your Macs? You love your gear and are proud of it, and most likely wouldn't risk making it worse. The ML system is the same thing... folks should hear what it sounds like in good repair. If they truly do hate it and think it's garbage, then sure, rip the whole thing out. It'll take true engineering knowledge and a TON of work and research to make it better by altering it.

 

[playdrv4me]

Owning expensive and quality gear does not mean you understand how these specific car audio systems work. As I stated earlier, the ML system has EQ and loading circuits built in to their amps made to mate with these specific drivers. It's not switching out your Macs for Krells or your B&Ws for Wilson/WATTs at home... it's like pulling one driver from your Diamond and swapping in a Focal driver of the same size and saying it'll be better. Maybe you're into tube rolling (talking about amps... no slur or double entendre meant or implied, just for those who might not know what tube rolling is), and like to try Russian vs Chinese EL84s or whatever.. that's cool. Do you know enough to muck about inside your Macs? You love your gear and are proud of it, and most likely wouldn't risk making it worse. The ML system is the same thing... folks should hear what it sounds like in good repair. If they truly do hate it and think it's garbage, then sure, rip the whole thing out. It'll take true engineering knowledge and a TON of work and research to make it better by altering it.

Given the amount of work and sweat people on this forum are willing to go to just to rip out a perfectly functioning touchscreen display to have buttons to install aftermarket head units (which I don't generally like), its kind of surprising to me to hear that “a ton of work and research” is a detriment to anyone here. That is exactly my point, When and if I decide to tackle this project I don’t want to take the easy road and just make it sound like an average factory system again. If work and research are required then I’ll do that, and I’m sure there’s plenty of people on this forum willing to both help in that endeavor as well as who may not be satisfied with the stock system itself. As the OP said, there are a “ton” of threads about going ML versus aftermarket, so this is certainly something that can be tackled. As for your barb about owning expensive audio equipment not being directly tied to an understanding of proper audio, likewise neither is it appropriate to admonish anyone who disagrees with *your* assessment of any particular system as wanting some kind of ghetto blaster bass machine. FWIW, my system is far simpler vintage gear now and I enjoy it just as much because I took the time to carefully select and match my components, it has nothing to do with cost alone.

If all you’re after is just a system that sounds fine then it’s actually awesome that the refoam kits are available. Though it’s kind of a self-fulfilling bandaid fix for what I still consider garbage components that it has to exist in the first place. When we discuss refoaming speakers in the “regular” audio world, we’re talking about vintage stuff that’s 30, 40, 50 years old. Yet All of them, every last Lexus vehicle from about 2001-2007 suffers from this crap and I’m not going to sit by and sugar coat that fact for the OP either. That is* Except* many of the ones with the standard audio or Pioneer systems which tend to last a lot longer in my personal experience. I’ve had numerous cars from the 80s and 90s that didn’t have factory audio components that deteriorated as quickly as these do.

 

[LXRestore]

Hey all. Update on my system now that it’s up and running. I refoamed everything before figuring out I had three coils out. Meanwhile I worked with crutch field and ordered a set of JL audio c1-650s for the front. They have crossovers and would eliminate the need for the mid range. They were 4 ohms, but they were confident they would work with the ML amp based on their info. Working front speakers are supposed to be 6-8 ohms, if I recall, which can be a tested on a multimeter.

In the meantime, I found some working ML speakers and a sub. The casework on the existing ML speakers is clean and easy to install, so I tried them out and got everything working. I was curious to hear the sound.

Verdict? I’m not a professed audiophile but know a decent system. It sounds Clean—meaning you can hear all the instruments-which is different than your average system. The notes sound solid and ‘warm’ if that makes any sense. My guess is that this was designed with classical and jazz in mind. I can push the system and it doesn’t struggle or distort—the foo fighters sound pretty darn good. However, I would argue the system in my ‘08 rx 350 was a more versatile system with different styles of music.

I’m happy with it and decided to keep the stock system in. I still have the new in box JL c1-650’s speakers if anyone is looking. I’ll probably list them up sometime.

 

[Pucker5]

Hey all. Update on my system now that it’s up and running. I refoamed everything before figuring out I had three coils out. Meanwhile I worked with crutch field and ordered a set of JL audio c1-650s for the front. They have crossovers and would eliminate the need for the mid range. They were 4 ohms, but they were confident they would work with the ML amp based on their info. Working front speakers are supposed to be 6-8 ohms, if I recall, which can be a tested on a multimeter.

In the meantime, I found some working ML speakers and a sub. The casework on the existing ML speakers is clean and easy to install, so I tried them out and got everything working. I was curious to hear the sound.

Verdict? I’m not a professed audiophile but know a decent system. It sounds Clean—meaning you can hear all the instruments-which is different than your average system. The notes sound solid and ‘warm’ if that makes any sense. My guess is that this was designed with classical and jazz in mind. I can push the system and it doesn’t struggle or distort—the foo fighters sound pretty darn good. However, I would argue the system in my ‘08 rx 350 was a more versatile system with different styles of music.

I’m happy with it and decided to keep the stock system in. I still have the new in box JL c1-650’s speakers if anyone is looking. I’ll probably list them up sometime.

Odd that critchfield would have recommended those when they are 4 ohm unless that woofer alone is 8 ohms (final load on a Comp set is often dictated by passive crossover configuration. Also aren’t the tweeter and mid were driven off different outputs on the factory amp. I think in this circumstance the results of your refoam will be superior to the new aftermarket component set that was advised. A better aftermarket alternative would have been to grab low power handling 8 ohm drivers for of parts express. Impedance matching is probably a solid priority for anyone modifying their system.

Btw, I like your guys theoretical battle on defining audiophile. I certainly feel like there’s a group that gravitates toward gear dictated audiophile quality and another group that emphasizes gear attributes
And their synergy with environment, use, and budget factors.

Anyways, i think anyone thinking they are going to get ridiculous sq from a driver that wasn’t designed for the factory amp in a system that has no advance eq and tuning capabilities has unrealistic expdctations. To say that an old ml system is Even close to a carefully selected set of speakers, proper amplification, and more current/customizable eq and tuning is a major stretch.

 

[MuseChaser]

Hey all. Update on my system now that it’s up and running. I refoamed everything before figuring out I had three coils out. Meanwhile I worked with crutch field and ordered a set of JL audio c1-650s for the front. They have crossovers and would eliminate the need for the mid range. They were 4 ohms, but they were confident they would work with the ML amp based on their info. Working front speakers are supposed to be 6-8 ohms, if I recall, which can be a tested on a multimeter.

In the meantime, I found some working ML speakers and a sub. The casework on the existing ML speakers is clean and easy to install, so I tried them out and got everything working. I was curious to hear the sound.

Verdict? I’m not a professed audiophile but know a decent system. It sounds Clean—meaning you can hear all the instruments-which is different than your average system. The notes sound solid and ‘warm’ if that makes any sense. My guess is that this was designed with classical and jazz in mind. I can push the system and it doesn’t struggle or distort—the foo fighters sound pretty darn good. However, I would argue the system in my ‘08 rx 350 was a more versatile system with different styles of music.

I’m happy with it and decided to keep the stock system in. I still have the new in box JL c1-650’s speakers if anyone is looking. I’ll probably list them up sometime.

Glad to hear you followed through and got the ML system working so you could make up your own mind. Your description of the system's positive attributes are very accurate. You might miss the "slam" and "sizzle" at first that you're used to hearing from other systems, but keep listening.. I think that the more you listen to it, the more you'll appreciate it. Yes, it DOES really show off best with jazz and classical, because that's where accuracy can be judged the best. Accuracy really isn't important in electronically generated music like almost all genres of pop/indie/rock/hiphop etc is because there really isn't anything with an actual acoustic event to be accurate TO. Even if the group is using acoustic guitars and vocals, there's soooo much processing (compression, huge amounts of eq, gates, pitch shifts, etc.) done before it even makes it to YOUR system that all that's left is whether you like the sound or not... no real reference to an original acoustic event. Good clean power to minimize distortion and a frequency response that YOU like is pretty much all you need to care about if you listen to those genres. ACCURATE, smooth frequency response curves and stable imaging really only need be concerns with acoustic music reproduction. The Levinson is wonderful for a car audio system, to my ears, in that regard.

Just a couple technical things for the sake of accuracy...

The ohm figures that are used to describe speakers are measures of overall impedance, and not resistance. While they are both specified in ohms, you can't use a multimeter to measure impedance, only resistance. Resistance is a measure of resistance to DC, while impedance is a measure of reactance, including capacitance and inductance, in an oscillating current which is what is feeding your speakers. DC reaching your speakers if very, VERY bad and doesn't happen in audio.. unless something is VERY wrong with your amp. Here's a quick primer that's not bad for those who are interested..

What is the difference between resistance and impedance?

Ask the experts your physics and astronomy questions, read answer archive, and more.

www.physlink.com

That's part of what I was getting at in my earlier discussion w/ the audiophile poster. Not putting him down, but knowing what you like and putting together synergistic amps and speakers at home are different than what we're talking about here. When you buy a "speaker" you love to listen to at home, you're really buying a speaker system... several drivers, each with their own specific measurements (Thiele-Small parameters), crossovers carefully designed to take each and every one of those many, many specifications and characteristics into account, and enclosures designed to also provide correct damping for the low frequency drivers as well as front baffle surfaces to tailor the dispersion of the increasingly directional higher frequency drivers. There's a LOT that goes into it. Saying you can just measure a speaker driver (a single replacement speaker for your car) with a multimeter, or just swap in any other 6 or 8 ohm speaker because it's the same rating, and expect good results is just wrong. It's POSSIBLE to get good results, but it'll take a LOT of trial and error, or a very knowledgeable audio engineer. Think of your entire ML system as an all-in-one amplifer/speaker. Would you feel comfortable opening up your home amp or receiver and swapping out ICs, MOSFETS, etc, or opening your speakers, removing the crossovers, redesigning them, measuring the parameters of other speaker drivers and swapping in ones you've calculated will yield even smoother frequency response given the crossover points, slopes, zobel networks, and enclosure size and construction? If so, have at it. If not, restoring the Levinson to it's factory state is really the best option. If you hate it THEN, then just rip it out and put in whatever you think is better. FWIW, I know a bit about this stuff, and have designed and built quite a few sets of home speakers, a few amplifiers, and done some repairing and modifying. I am NOT a physicist, don't have an electrical engineering degree, and am solely a hobbyist in terms of designing and building gear... There is no WAY I know enough to advise anyone what speakers would work in the Levinson system... at least, not without a schematic of the amps and crossovers, or at the very least very detailed specs of every amp output, crossover, and individual speaker. Even then, I'd get a REAL big headache fast. I know enough to be dangerous to myself and my family.. that's it.

I know, I repeat myself. There's just so much bad information out there, and the idea that a multimeter can tell you anything about a speaker's impedance is one of the top misconceptions a lot of folks have.

 

[playdrv4me]

Hey all. Update on my system now that it’s up and running. I refoamed everything before figuring out I had three coils out. Meanwhile I worked with crutch field and ordered a set of JL audio c1-650s for the front. They have crossovers and would eliminate the need for the mid range. They were 4 ohms, but they were confident they would work with the ML amp based on their info. Working front speakers are supposed to be 6-8 ohms, if I recall, which can be a tested on a multimeter.

In the meantime, I found some working ML speakers and a sub. The casework on the existing ML speakers is clean and easy to install, so I tried them out and got everything working. I was curious to hear the sound.

Verdict? I’m not a professed audiophile but know a decent system. It sounds Clean—meaning you can hear all the instruments-which is different than your average system. The notes sound solid and ‘warm’ if that makes any sense. My guess is that this was designed with classical and jazz in mind. I can push the system and it doesn’t struggle or distort—the foo fighters sound pretty darn good. However, I would argue the system in my ‘08 rx 350 was a more versatile system with different styles of music.

I’m happy with it and decided to keep the stock system in. I still have the new in box JL c1-650’s speakers if anyone is looking. I’ll probably list them up sometime.

Yes, I've heard the RX systems (I'm in and out of multiple cars every day) and they actually do sound very good. The earlier ones still fall apart but I prefer the sound from those when they are working properly. Better overall timbre matching of all the drivers and maybe even the shape of the interior has a little to do with it as well. Either way, glad you got it all sorted out, can't wait to tear into mine and get it up to snuff.

 

[apdxyk]

A couple of side-notes.

Perhaps, it is far more difficult to design an acoustic part of the sound equations for a boxy vehicle with a relatively high ratio of highly reflective to absorbing surface (glass vs carpet vs leather vs vinyl). Just to throw a stone at the LS vs LX sound comparisons.

Last time I looked at the ML drivers I saw custom made ones from a highly reputed top notch Danish maker. So, I just re-foamed those.
Too many, much too many variables in this system of more than one equations for my feeble mind.

 

[nbailz]

I’ve read about 100 threads regarding the ML speaker system... to replace or not to replace... round and round we go... I have an 02 LX with the mids in the front doors... can anyone in forum land provide part numbers to the refoam kits they used? I need to do what I believe are my 6.5” fronts, 4” rears, and the sub but I might as well do the mids while I’m in there if they need them. Any help?

I finished up the project this weekend and can confirm that this kit worked:
3x FS-6BT (6 inch)
2x FS-5s (5 inch)
2x speaker repair adhesive

You only need 1 repair adhesive. A little goes a LONG way. I took a ton of time on prep work...my hands hurt the next day after all of the scraping with razor blades, box cutter, and chemicals to break down the adhesive. Do it somewhere acceptable to make a mess. My wife didn't love me doing it on the kitchen table lol. It's 100% worth it for $60 and an afternoon! Sounds night and day different.