June ROTM - June 21st
- Thread starter Chaos55
- Start date
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Looks like I can break away and join you guys this weekend!
Remember even if it is state trust land if you are hunting, the state treats the hunting license like a state land permit.
I will be bringing my varmint call just in case...
Remember even if it is state trust land if you are hunting, the state treats the hunting license like a state land permit.
I will be bringing my varmint call just in case...
Looking at the legend could it be leased STL? I have a permit(im covered
) the people that publicly rent ATV and guide on the same road say no.Dont take my word because its not up to me call the STL and ask them. Im sure everyone going would like to hear what STL has to say. Then you will know for sure....Maybe
Also I dont use Cow Creek Road
Cow creek path means you'll miss the old hotel and grounds. Always a must see everytime I go.
Shhhh
I could be talked in to camping overnight who else?
I'd be interested. Any particular place, or just in crown king area?
We're planning to camp (me and two teenagers), wherever.
So I am doing my homework on permits and stuff.....I doubt I'll have a STL permit by Saturday...since I can't do it on line - doesn't sound like an issue for this weekend, but I am going to do it anyway.
So I am doing my homework on permits and stuff.....I doubt I'll have a STL permit by Saturday...since I can't do it on line - doesn't sound like an issue for this weekend, but I am going to do it anyway.
- Thread starter
- #30
When I did the research for this trail I had used the "Arizona Backroads and 4 wheel drive trails" book, and it typically states if you need a STL permit or not, it does not specify needing one for this trail. But then again it is an older version of the book I was using. I had also looked here "http://www.azland.gov/webapps/parcel/" like others before me and I'm going to estimate that 80%+ of the trail is in US Forest Service or BLM land.
But tonight after work I'm going to go to their office and inquire, I'll let everyone know tonight.
Also I had looked into other permits as other research suggested we might need a Lake Pleasant permit, but because we will be north of this area this permit is not required either.
I had no game plan on a set route for when in CK, was just going to wing it.
But tonight after work I'm going to go to their office and inquire, I'll let everyone know tonight.
Also I had looked into other permits as other research suggested we might need a Lake Pleasant permit, but because we will be north of this area this permit is not required either.
I had no game plan on a set route for when in CK, was just going to wing it.
Chaos55 -- I did talk to the guys behind the counter 'at the license office' and they said 'yes' when I was purchasing my permit. As for Lake Pleasant, that day pass is only needed if you stop inside any of the develpoed areas, including a toilet stop.
The office guys were kind enough to let me behind the counter - so to speak- to show me what to look for for signage for the various types of land. I left with the idea that any white sign means you need a permit; and teh official language in the law states "State Trust Land requiring a permit may or may not be posted..." which pretty much says it is a damned good idea to have a State Lands permit whenever/whereven you drive inside Arizona.
Good luck on getting a meaningful answer from them, take names and badge numbers, but we shiould all remember the written law overrules whatever they tell you.
These statutes suggest the owner currently cited for trespass doesn't meet the statuatory description for tresspass (37-0501.1). Below are two main statutes I could find relating to use and premits. It's worrisome that with 37-1153.A and D the agency can create rules ad-hoc and they become legal requirements; such as "even if not properly signed" you are still guilty of trespass. Should be an easy win in court, but bothers the heck out of me when any public agency is given that level of latitude.
http://www.azleg.gov/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp?Title=37
37-501. Trespass on state lands; classification
A person is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor who:
1. Knowingly commits a trespass upon state lands, either by cutting down or destroying timber or wood standing or growing thereon, by carrying away timber or wood therefrom, by mowing, cutting, or removing hay or grass thereon or therefrom, or by grazing livestock thereon, unless he has a lease or sublease approved by the department for the area being grazed.
2. Knowingly extracts or removes oil, gas, coal, mineral, earth, rock, fertilizer or fossils of any kind or description therefrom.
3. Knowingly without right injures or removes any building, fence or improvements on state lands, or unlawfully occupies, plows or cultivates any of the lands.
4. With criminal negligence exposes growing trees, shrubs or undergrowth standing on state lands to danger or destruction by fire.
37-1153. Permit to use public trust lands
A. On application, the department may permit the use of public trust lands by a public entity or private person or entity if the department determines that such use will be consistent with, and in the best interests of, the public trust. The use may continue only as long as the lands are used for the purposes for which the permit is granted. The permit shall contain terms and conditions that are necessary or appropriate to assure protection of the public trust interests associated with the lands. The user shall pay due compensation to the department that shall be used for the purposes prescribed by this chapter.
B. At least thirty days before issuing a permit under this section the department shall provide written notice of the proposed action and an opportunity to comment to any person who has previously requested written notice of actions under this section. The department shall provide contemporaneous written notice of the final decision to any person who filed a comment.
C. The department may lease rights-of-way in public trust lands for nonexclusive uses for a term of not more than ten years without a public auction, if the conditions prescribed by subsection A are met.
D. The department shall adopt rules relating to granting the use permits and maintaining the public trust land that is subject to permit under this section.
The office guys were kind enough to let me behind the counter - so to speak- to show me what to look for for signage for the various types of land. I left with the idea that any white sign means you need a permit; and teh official language in the law states "State Trust Land requiring a permit may or may not be posted..." which pretty much says it is a damned good idea to have a State Lands permit whenever/whereven you drive inside Arizona.
Good luck on getting a meaningful answer from them, take names and badge numbers, but we shiould all remember the written law overrules whatever they tell you.
These statutes suggest the owner currently cited for trespass doesn't meet the statuatory description for tresspass (37-0501.1). Below are two main statutes I could find relating to use and premits. It's worrisome that with 37-1153.A and D the agency can create rules ad-hoc and they become legal requirements; such as "even if not properly signed" you are still guilty of trespass. Should be an easy win in court, but bothers the heck out of me when any public agency is given that level of latitude.
http://www.azleg.gov/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp?Title=37
37-501. Trespass on state lands; classification
A person is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor who:
1. Knowingly commits a trespass upon state lands, either by cutting down or destroying timber or wood standing or growing thereon, by carrying away timber or wood therefrom, by mowing, cutting, or removing hay or grass thereon or therefrom, or by grazing livestock thereon, unless he has a lease or sublease approved by the department for the area being grazed.
2. Knowingly extracts or removes oil, gas, coal, mineral, earth, rock, fertilizer or fossils of any kind or description therefrom.
3. Knowingly without right injures or removes any building, fence or improvements on state lands, or unlawfully occupies, plows or cultivates any of the lands.
4. With criminal negligence exposes growing trees, shrubs or undergrowth standing on state lands to danger or destruction by fire.
37-1153. Permit to use public trust lands
A. On application, the department may permit the use of public trust lands by a public entity or private person or entity if the department determines that such use will be consistent with, and in the best interests of, the public trust. The use may continue only as long as the lands are used for the purposes for which the permit is granted. The permit shall contain terms and conditions that are necessary or appropriate to assure protection of the public trust interests associated with the lands. The user shall pay due compensation to the department that shall be used for the purposes prescribed by this chapter.
B. At least thirty days before issuing a permit under this section the department shall provide written notice of the proposed action and an opportunity to comment to any person who has previously requested written notice of actions under this section. The department shall provide contemporaneous written notice of the final decision to any person who filed a comment.
C. The department may lease rights-of-way in public trust lands for nonexclusive uses for a term of not more than ten years without a public auction, if the conditions prescribed by subsection A are met.
D. The department shall adopt rules relating to granting the use permits and maintaining the public trust land that is subject to permit under this section.
- Thread starter
- #32
GW great write up but the official language from the head guy from behind the counter when I said I was analyzing this because I'm an Engineer was...."it is lawful for people to transit between BLM and US Forest Service onto State Trust Land on an established road provided they are in a licensed vehicle (truck or OHV sticker). When a person stops on State Trust Land it now is considered hiking or parking whichever the case may be then are subject to needing a permit." So as long as we don't stop on the State Land which should be do able we DO NOT need a State Land Trust permit, but as mentioned previously it is a great idea to have one. He also unofficially said that if the area we're going to is that "grey of an issue" where state trust land intersects other land such as the case of the CK trail it is highly unlikely someone is going to stop you.
I got the family pass so I can claim one other person/truck on my permit if someone is completely nervous about it!
I got the family pass so I can claim one other person/truck on my permit if someone is completely nervous about it!
Thanks very much Chaos55 for taking the time for the clarification on the law and area in question
I read that the snipes are in full rutting season up in that area. You can protect yourself from these nocturnal beasts by surrounding your tent with crushed garlic cloves and mountain dew.
Im sure those teenagers will be initiated properly - One cant be too careful!
Im sure those teenagers will be initiated properly - One cant be too careful!
I am wondering if the nauga situation has calmed down up in that area yet? Heard of an attack by one a bit north of Crown King not too long ago, poor guy had to get rabie shots. Nasty wound too. He did say it took his friend banging on it with a big stick to finally let go of him!
Speeking of snipes and naugas, another CK critter stole my paper money - yeah - the green type!!! But it must uh been one of them gnome types tho - replaced my money with fudge. An it were good fudge, too; so I didn't think to feel so bad after it was done an over.
The counter guy probably assumed I was going off the forest road - I may have even mentioned "sightseeing" and "exploring" thus he provided me the correct advice as well.
Thanks Chaos55.
The counter guy probably assumed I was going off the forest road - I may have even mentioned "sightseeing" and "exploring" thus he provided me the correct advice as well.
Thanks Chaos55.
True statement.
Actually we're wavering on the camping idea....there might be more of us now (1 year old and 3 year old plus mom) - good thing I have my third row! If we bring the young-uns we won't camp.
What's the wisdom on bringing wee ones on such fudge runs?
Also, is all of this part still the plan:
My call sign is W9AND, black LX470 - stock minus the running boards, likely filled to the brim with screaming short people.
Andrew
We're back to camping and just me and the two teens. Is it safe to assume we'll be to CK by lunch and can we get lunch there? Planning our camp meals etc.
It has been a while since I have eaten up there but the bar also served food back then. It will more than likely be crowded however...