Is the dealership trying to screw me??

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OK, here is the other side of the story. What most people don't know is that technicians work on flat rate. For example, gets paid 4 hours to R&R starter. If it takes them 2 good for the tech, if it takes them 6 bad for the tech.

So here is the scenario, you don't know anything about cars, but you have your truck towed in with starting issues, dealer is nice and decided to save you some money and R&R starter contacts. You save $200 on the job but next week your wife is stranded again due to the truck not starting. You are all pissed off and this time you insist the dealer tows in it on their expense and fix the mess they made last time. Catch is this time it is the solenoid that went bad due to the 150k miles on the truck. You don't know anything about cars, but you do know the dealer worked on the starter last so it must be their fault..

So what does the shop do, eat the cost, make the tech swap the starter on his own time, all this to make an irate customer happy because you threaten to tell everyone on your myspace friends list that this dealer sucks. This is not fiction, this does happen.

So, how do the dealer fix this problem. They replaced the starter with a reman from Toyota, because if that fails, they can turn to Toyota and ask them to cover the work to R&R it again.

Now replace starter with throttle body and you have Noah's case. Customer might perceive it as screwing them, dealer looks at it like good business practices. I am not defending them, just illustrating the other side of the coin. Now if all customers understood their trucks and were reasonable, we would not have this situation.

But if you knew your truck, then you would do the work yourself. That is why the dealer has a parts counter. So you can choose to save money and rebuild parts. If it works, great saved money, if it does not, you are out of your own time.

So the knowledgeable diy'er never goes to the service dept, making the problem even worse since the majority of people that visit the service dept are uninformed. They are the ones that shout, "You worked on it last, you fix it"

Case and point at the shop yesterday. Existing customer calls with truck with powersteering that makes noise. We get the truck, diagnose it and determine new pump and high pressure hose are needed. Quote the job, customer states he wants to save money and get a used pump or rebuild it.

Well, we won't guarantee either as a full solution. Used pump is obvious, reseal the pump will ensure it does not leak, but if the internals are worn they are still worn afterwards.

So customer now has diagnoses, then calls back in the afternoon that he can get the work done cheaper somewhere else for $200 less. Did ask what he owed for diagnosing the problem. We refused payment and told him his truck is ready to be picked up.

Could our estimate be considered "we are screwing the customer" because we wanted to replace with new parts and not install a $30 rebuilt kit and send the hose to a local shop to be repaired? Sure, by the customer.

Off soapbox.

i understand your point of view, but i have a problem with fixing something b/c it "may" break or it's just easier to do.........

I guess i might as well throw a new engine in and call it a day............................


yes yes i know extreme thinking, but i think the dealership should do whats best for the customer, not, as many people say in here "throw parts at it" just because...

Another thing...if he wants to sell me on something he'd better be educated enough on the issue to sell me on it...
 
Now if all customers understood their trucks and were reasonable, we would not have this situation.
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This is the most important statement of christo's whole rant. I've worked at toy/lex dealers for 15 yrs and no matter what we are the bad guy. I only have two things to add.

1-Dealers are there for a reason. If you don't trust anyone to work on your car, somehow most people have no problem taking it to the dealer (not knowing anyone) because its the dealer and they will stand behind what service they have performed, sometimes you have to push a little but they will usually do it.

2-It's "your" money, you don't have to spend it.

As christo illustrated, If you pay 1400 for the t/b you will likely never have another problem as long as you own this vehicle with the t/b. Pay the ? for the tps or tpps and it could comeback.

If I were the dealer I would give you both options, help you to understand them both and let you make the decision. If you opt for the cheaper one the parts are still covered for 1yr 12000 mi. If it fails come in and I'll replace it under warranty. If it fails 15 mos later, don't be pissed at me. I gave you everything (hopefully) you needed to make and educated or semi-educated decision.
 
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If I were the dealer I would give you both options, help you to understand them both and let you make the decision. If you opt for the cheaper one the parts are still covered for 1yr 12000 mi. If it fails come in and I'll replace it under warranty. If it fails 15 mos later, don't be pissed at me. I gave you everything (hopefully) you needed to make and educated or semi-educated decision.

the problem is.....they almost never give you "options" like this.........
 
If I were the dealer I would give you both options, help you to understand them both and let you make the decision. If you opt for the cheaper one the parts are still covered for 1yr 12000 mi. If it fails come in and I'll replace it under warranty. If it fails 15 mos later, don't be pissed at me. I gave you everything (hopefully) you needed to make and educated or semi-educated decision.

This is the key in my opinion. Good customer service does not stop with the mechanic's ability to diagnose and do the job well. I see Slee's point clearly, but the service manager needs to be able to communicate the full picture well.

I had a Nissan Quest that gave me electrical fits. When the dealer found that the flasher switch on the dash was the culprit, they replaced it, under vehicle warranty. The warranty expired 2 months later and the part died again 6 months later. Only then was I informed that parts replaced under warranty are not warranted as a parts counter purchase would be. Sometimes it is better to purchase parts independently and do it yourself or find a mechanic that will.

The nice things about dealership shops is that they get in and out quick and there is an economy of scale in specially trained personnel with the right tools and a parts warehouse to get the job done right. However, I have found that the service managers invariably are guys who are not competent and therefore cannot communicate the service. I will gladly pay more for good "service".
 
i understand your point of view, but i have a problem with fixing something b/c it "may" break or it's just easier to do.........

I guess i might as well throw a new engine in and call it a day............................


yes yes i know extreme thinking, but i think the dealership should do whats best for the customer, not, as many people say in here "throw parts at it" just because...

Another thing...if he wants to sell me on something he'd better be educated enough on the issue to sell me on it...


I understand everything Christo said after spending 20+ years in the auto repair biz that includes 18 at dealerships. First, when you walk in the door, your dealing with the service writer (I did that for six months) who spends most of his time trying to explain the situation to customers who are pissed that their car is broke in the first place. Most are not mechanics and simply try to interpret what the mechanic states into words that most will understand. I you get technical in your explaination, your talking down to them (I've been chewed out for that). If you explain it in basic terms, they yell because your treating them like a 3rd grader. No win situation when the customer walks through the door with the attitude of "I'm going to get screwed here".
Like Christo said, most mechanics get paid by the job "flat rate". So if you do get to talk to one, he's on his time not getting paid. "So" you say? Do your job for free whatever that might be and see if you like it.
We all want something for nothing, I do all the time. At least when I do, I walk in with a pleasant hello and a box of cookies or donuts to break the ice. That was the case sometimes in the dealership, price by attitude, and some were even asked to leave and take their business somewhere else if they wlk in bitching right off.

Granted, some dealerships are staffed by poorly informed, crusty old farts that you can't deal with or understand. But why do you take your vehicle to a place you don't trust? Do you go to a Doctor (who pratices medicine) that you don't trust? Do eat at a restaurant you don't trust?

Like LexusBen stated:
1-Dealers are there for a reason. If you don't trust anyone to work on your car, somehow most people have no problem taking it to the dealer (not knowing anyone) because its the dealer and they will stand behind what service they have performed, sometimes you have to push a little but they will usually do it.

2-It's "your" money, you don't have to spend it.

Sorry Christo and Ben for pushing you off the soapbox. My wife just told me to get off it.
I will now go get some decaf
 
I hear people say to clean the TB, is there a thread on doing this correctly??

Yes - in the FAQ. And a link from the TPS/APPS FAQ.

If Noah had been given the information onesprung60 provided in post #4 at the beginning then I would think no issue. And the "we change hundreds of these and they always come back if we don't replace the TB too" is typical garbage. Give me information and your recommendation. Even if they said they can't warrant the TPS w/o the TB that would make sense.

If anyone still has their failed TPS lets tear it apart, take some photos and see if we can ID the problem.

Noah - Will you ask for the bad parts for this failure analysis project.
 
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Interesting to hear about the difference in TB design. This lends different solutions on different model years. My expectation is that Toyota would cover the TB under warranty.

I appreciate the other side of the dealership story. In the past I did a lot of my auto work myself, now I still do a fair amount. I have always found the dealerships helpful when I ask about particular problems, even let me look at their shop manuals. Basically, if I wanted to tackle the job, I would do it, otherwise, I brought it to the dealer. I also bought parts from the dealer - usually, they offer some sort of discount.

I have found service people helpful. Usually I get a choice as LexusBen mentioned. If I think there are alternatives I will ask for some, or to talk to the tech about it.

While there have been times I have received super values from dealer service, most of the times the price is simply reasonable. However, overall I get excellent value. There have been times I have taken the vehicle in to be checked and it has turned out to be a minor thing. I find the service dept has saved me a lot of unnecessary repairs and they are up front about what is critical and what is optional. They will discuss new, reman, and used parts.

While I enjoy getting a super bargain price, I do not like to sacrifice value to get the absolute lowest price. In other words, I like the "best value" over the "lowest bidder" approach.

Interesting comment about cookies, we have dropped off some fresh homemade chocolate chip cookies for a tech and/or service person that has done a notable job for us. They seem to appreciate it.
 
Noah - what dealership quoted this? I've had pretty good luck with World Toyota, although admittedly limited at this point. If I went back to my service writer with this information (contained in this thread), he'd probably offer me the other option with the knowledge that I had at least a layman's understanding of what was going on and what the "risks" were.
 
Shew, this thread ballooned all of a sudden.

All sides of the coin presented here are true in my experience. (Used to work in the shop myself, though not for 18 years...)

As already stated, replacing entire assy rather than sub-components is both more profitable and also a more reliable repair.

But.

Here is one more side to the coin:

Knowing vehicle service inside and out - not just from working in a shop but also from completing 2 years full-time auto mechanics training, and also knowing more than the average customer about the engineering of the vehicle (BSME, 7+ years automotive engineering experience) - means that whenever I have to get something done by a dealer or other shop, I see right through all the BS.

(Yes, unfortunately, I don't personally own an alignment rack, tire balancer, or a few other tools for things that nonetheless must be done occasionally to my vehicles.)

Some of the BS I hear from shop personnel is them trying to cover up their lack of knowledge, some of it is based in their incompetence, and some is outright lying to try to screw me. The first two scenarios are annoying, but the last scenario is unacceptable - and it happens more than it should.

Unfortunately, honest and competent service people are rare, in my experience.

Anybody know some in N. Alabama area?

(bring on the soapboxes again!)
 
This is the most important statement of christo's whole rant. I've worked at toy/lex dealers for 15 yrs and no matter what we are the bad guy. I only have two things to add.

1-Dealers are there for a reason. If you don't trust anyone to work on your car, somehow most people have no problem taking it to the dealer (not knowing anyone) because its the dealer and they will stand behind what service they have performed, sometimes you have to push a little but they will usually do it.

2-It's "your" money, you don't have to spend it.

As christo illustrated, If you pay 1400 for the t/b you will likely never have another problem as long as you own this vehicle with the t/b. Pay the ? for the tps or tpps and it could comeback.

If I were the dealer I would give you both options, help you to understand them both and let you make the decision. If you opt for the cheaper one the parts are still covered for 1yr 12000 mi. If it fails come in and I'll replace it under warranty. If it fails 15 mos later, don't be pissed at me. I gave you everything (hopefully) you needed to make and educated or semi-educated decision.

Problem is people don't listen. :)
 
I have been known to go to other dealerships on expensive repairs and get a second opinion. Especially if I think I am getting the treatment Tinkerer mentioned. Fortunately, at my current Toyota dealer the parts guy is a former top mechanic and he will give me info along with who is the best tech to talk to about an issue. If I am out of town, I just try to be up front with the service rep about what I want to know and question them if I think I am getting a story. I rarely have trouble.
 
BSME, 7+ years automotive engineering experience means that whenever I have to get something done by a dealer or other shop, I see right through all the BS.

Most consumers either can't see through the dealerships BS or are to timid to call them on it. So, the service writers and service mangers get used to getting away with legalized stealing without any objections. It becomes the norm for them. Then, when one in a hundred customers does call them on their BS, they usually get huffy.

Car dealerships are big business. Big business has a reputation of rolling over the little consumer. Big business is all about making money. Every manager has a profit target and a bonus opportunity if the target is met. There are no constrains or questions on "how it was met". The owners and investors say to the managers, "don't tell me how many storms you encountered, just bring in the ship full of gold".

For the most part, dealerships are blood suckers. Buyer beware!
 
I understand the other side of the coin (dealer's perspective) and I appreciate that. But my problem with them is about their communication. They tend to suck at giving a reasonable explanation for the issue. If this dealer had explained the whole deal to Noah like it was explained in onesprung's post, it wouldn't be an issue.

Usually they have the service rep dealing with you. They are a go between and they rarely know anything about working on car. Additionally, they are usually cheesy and condescending. This can make the experience infuriating. Every time I've spoken with an actual mechanic and gotten the real story, I've felt confident about the fix.

Anyway, my point is that the dealer might not be trying to screw you, but often they need to communicate better to help avoid this perception.
 
well i took it in today to get the TPS changed and i asked them about cleaning the TB. I was told that they can do a EFI which cleans the TB all the way to the injectors - $99 - i sprung for that. I thought i might as well since the TB seems to be what is causing the TPS to go out in 98-99 LCs....so i am told.

anyhoo.......i had an appointment at 8:15 this morning, dropped it off at 8:10 and went on my marry way. I just had a voicemail (3:17pm) from the service guy saying to give him a call for a update..............this cant be good.....
so i have called the guy three times and he is too busy to get back to me, so i ask another person for the update....he tells me he can only see if the truck is done - which it isnt.............................

I am having the work done a Marietta Toyota - FTR
 

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