hydro assist Q's

[Mace]

Cant use the steering stops...well I suppose technically you could, but you will quickly rip the arms off the knuckle.

Depends on if your box was the limiting factor as well. The ram cannot extend any further if the box is bound up.


It is a bit of a balance tho. If the ram is too long, you are putting undue stress on your steering knuckles and stops. If it's too short, you are limiting the steering ability of the axle. a custom ram is not all that expensive honestly. I had a 4.5" ram made for my 40 when it was running cruiser axles to deal with some REALLY short arms I had made by OTT. It worked fine and was not that bad.

I'm going to put a 6" ram on Bob even though the stock throw is a bit under that..

 

[4rnr]

Depends on if your box was the limiting factor as well. The ram cannot extend any further if the box is bound up.


It is a bit of a balance tho. If the ram is too long, you are putting undue stress on your steering knuckles and stops. If it's too short, you are limiting the steering ability of the axle. a custom ram is not all that expensive honestly. I had a 4.5" ram made for my 40 when it was running cruiser axles to deal with some REALLY short arms I had made by OTT. It worked fine and was not that bad.

I'm going to put a 6" ram on Bob even though the stock throw is a bit under that..

True. In that case the ram wont reach the stops. But thats still alot of force on the tie rods ends atleast. And im not sure how much force the box likes to see coming back up the drag link.

 

[Chop Shop]

On a full hydro system the steering stops and ram limits MUST all be perfect to avoid damage to ram/knuckles.

On a hydro assist things are a little differently.

Anyone here ever operated their assist ram when it was unbolted? They are strong but its not putting out axle ripping forces just out of a tapped box.

You hand turns the wheel, the wheel turns the box, the box pushes the tierods and the box gives the ram fluid when it gets input from you by turning the wheel.

If you dont turn the wheel, the box dont fill up the ram.

So if you cant turn the wheel cuz the stops are touching then you have hit the mechanical stops and cant turn it any more therefore not giving the ram any more fluid from the box that is not being turned anymore.


It doesnt matter if that steering ram was ten feet long. As son as I turned the toyota axle about 4.5 inches it will hit the stops and I wont be able to turn anymore thus ending the input the ram is gettting leaving 9 feet and 7.5 inches of ram left.

How do you intend to fill the other 9.5+ feet of ram now that the stops are not letting you turn the input/wheel anymore?


HMMMMMMMMMMMmmm

 

[Mace]

On a full hydro system the steering stops and ram limits MUST all be perfect to avoid damage to ram/knuckles.

On a hydro assist things are a little differently.

Anyone here ever operated their assist ram when it was unbolted? They are strong but its not putting out axle ripping forces just out of a tapped box.

You hand turns the wheel, the wheel turns the box, the box pushes the tierods and the box gives the ram fluid when it gets input from you by turning the wheel.

If you dont turn the wheel, the box dont fill up the ram.

So if you cant turn the wheel cuz the stops are touching then you have hit the mechanical stops and cant turn it any more therefore not giving the ram any more fluid from the box that is not being turned anymore.


It doesnt matter if that steering ram was ten feet long. As son as I turned the toyota axle about 4.5 inches it will hit the stops and I wont be able to turn anymore thus ending the input the ram is gettting leaving 9 feet and 7.5 inches of ram left.

How do you intend to fill the other 9.5+ feet of ram now that the stops are not letting you turn the input/wheel anymore?


HMMMMMMMMMMMmmm

Sort of. The steering box is limited by the stops. So, it can turn more than is allowed. Because of this, the RAM will still try to go further than the stops allow. Which crushes the stops and stresses the knuckles. If it did not work that way, the RAM would not be a benefit at all.

 

[Chop Shop]

Sort of. The steering box is limited by the stops. So, it can turn more than is allowed.

If it is limited by the stops how can it turn more than is allowed?

(and just a stock box with no ram will crush the stops) If you are getting to the hydro assist phase, your stops should have been replaced with solid ones long ago too.

 

[Tapage]

if you are reaching the steering stops .. but you still hold the steering wheel against them .. you are still forcing the box to go further more .. then still pressure it's build by the pump to help the box keep the force .. then still fluid ( pressure ) it's been delivered to the ram ..

I'm ok .?

 

[Mace]

If it is limited by the stops how can it turn more than is allowed?

(and just a stock box with no ram will crush the stops) If you are getting to the hydro assist phase, your stops should have been replaced with solid ones long ago too.

Poorly worded I guess. Because your steering stops are limiting the box instead of the box limiting itself, you can still turn "more" if you are able to distort the stops or severly overtorque the knuckles. Which are both things the ram will help do.
So, even though the ram is being limited by the steering box. The box will still try to turn further than the steering stops will allow, just like the box/ram will assist when you are aired down turning against a rock.

The steering box tries to fill the ram up before it gives any assistance to itself. It's kinda wierd, Disconnect your ram from the Tierod (or wherever it is mounted) and turn the wheel (engine running) Before you can actually turn the steering wheel, the ram will either have to extend or retract completly.

Serious PITA if you actually need to steer with a damaged ram..

 

[BionicCruiser]

for a second there I thought I was in the clear, because my box stops before the axle hits it's stops. but if what Mace says is true, it's moot. still need to limit my ram.
I called West Texas Off Road and they can put a limit block inside a ram I buy from them. I haven't reached Rock Stomper yet to see what they can do. R.S. is a little cheaper for a kit minus box. if I drill and tap my own box it saves $200 at WTOR's price.

 

[4rnr]

Anyone here ever operated their assist ram when it was unbolted? They are strong but its not putting out axle ripping forces just out of a tapped box.

You hand turns the wheel, the wheel turns the box, the box pushes the tierods and the box gives the ram fluid when it gets input from you by turning the wheel.

If you dont turn the wheel, the box dont fill up the ram.

So if you cant turn the wheel cuz the stops are touching then you have hit the mechanical stops and cant turn it any more therefore not giving the ram any more fluid from the box that is not being turned anymore.


It doesnt matter if that steering ram was ten feet long. As son as I turned the toyota axle about 4.5 inches it will hit the stops and I wont be able to turn anymore thus ending the input the ram is gettting leaving 9 feet and 7.5 inches of ram left.

How do you intend to fill the other 9.5+ feet of ram now that the stops are not letting you turn the input/wheel anymore?


HMMMMMMMMMMMmmm

Many sheared studs would argue you on that.

So, even though the ram is being limited by the steering box. The box will still try to turn further than the steering stops will allow, just like the box/ram will assist when you are aired down turning against a rock.

Exactly!

There is no difference between that steering stop and a big rock on the trail to the steering sytem, and the whole point of the ram is to fight BEYOND that rock.

 

[Chop Shop]

Many sheared studs would argue you on that.

Sheared studs are a result of inproper arm attachment.

The stock design is crappy. Without a 6 shooter or a set of good studs and a fifth stud the only way to keep the studs together is to drive like a wussy.

With a 6 shooter or a 5th stud you should not experience broken studs even with assist.

Sometimes with full hydro and no brains, but an assist on a toyoda box with a factory pump just is not capable of enough pressure to rip off a well attached 6 shooter or 5th stud.

I have a fifth stud and have never broke a stud or an arm. I have bent the housing twice now. And a month ago I broke the pin clean off the hysteer arm.

Studs were perfect tho. I even put the ol used KOYO trunion bearing back in.

 

[Chop Shop]

for a second there I thought I was in the clear, because my box stops before the axle hits it's stops. but if what Mace says is true, it's moot. still need to limit my ram.
I called West Texas Off Road and they can put a limit block inside a ram I buy from them. I haven't reached Rock Stomper yet to see what they can do. R.S. is a little cheaper for a kit minus box. if I drill and tap my own box it saves $200 at WTOR's price.

Putting a limit block in as easier than porting your own box.

Either use a chunk of aluminum solid stock. (leftover 7075 link bar endcuts work well).

Drill it out and cut it to the length needed to limit the ram properly.
I have also used white plastic. The tough white stuff at my local plastic supply house. Might be some kind of uhmv (?) Works well and is easy to cut/drill.

Depending on the rams design and assembly needs you can either take it apart and put it on the inside over the shaft or put it on the outside between the pin/heim jamnut/bolt and the end of the ram/cap.

I would look to see which surface is tougher and better suited to having contact with a limiting surface.

Be sure if going inside to not obstruct any of the fluid delivery ports with your stopper.

 

[Medusa]

So if you cant turn the wheel cuz the stops are touching then you have hit the mechanical stops and cant turn it any more therefore not giving the ram any more fluid from the box that is not being turned anymore.

Sheared studs are a result of inproper arm attachment.

Wrong on both statements, IMO

Here is an example of what can happen when "you cant turn the wheel cuz a big rock is limiting the movement and cant turn it any more therefore not giving the ram any more fluid from the box that is not being turned anymore" This is a WTOR box driven by a Saginaw 800 box and stock GM pump.

 

[Chop Shop]

using a rock as an example to compere to stops is a stretch.

you have a tire between the rock and steering parts. ou turn the wheel, it feels like it wont turj cuz its ona rock but in reality the box is giving it pressure cuz everytime you reef the wheel the tire flexes and lets the steering move a LITTLE bit giving the ram input.

A steering stop is a firm hit with no flex unless you have a very sloppy set of leaf springs and the rig will push the axle a little side to side.

Your rig is linked and should STOP when it hits the stops. No give unless you have a sloppy rod end or bad bump steer and can actually lift or compress the front susp by steering right to left.


Thats a cute widdle shaft on that ram.

 

[Medusa]

Steering stops or rock are irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. I was responding to the fundamental mistake that you made with this statement:

If you dont turn the wheel, the box dont fill up the ram

That statement is really only true when the box is in the neutral position. If the box is not in the neutral position and the steering wheel will not turn, either because of a steering stop or a rock stopping the wheel from turning, the box is filling the ram. My bent ram and countless busted knuckles and arms are proof of that.

 

['74 UA FJ]

using a rock as an example to compere to stops is a stretch.

you have a tire between the rock and steering parts. ou turn the wheel, it feels like it wont turj cuz its ona rock but in reality the box is giving it pressure cuz everytime you reef the wheel the tire flexes and lets the steering move a LITTLE bit giving the ram input.

A steering stop is a firm hit with no flex unless you have a very sloppy set of leaf springs and the rig will push the axle a little side to side.

Your rig is linked and should STOP when it hits the stops. No give unless you have a sloppy rod end or bad bump steer and can actually lift or compress the front susp by steering right to left.


Thats a cute widdle shaft on that ram.

You are off on how the assist system works.

Drop your pitman arm from your steering box. Crank your vehicle and turn your steering wheel all the way to the left or the right. Your wheels won't turn until you limit out the box and only then does the ram turn the wheels.

The same thing happens with everything connected and your wheels turned at full lock. The ram is still pushing(if it's long enough) when you are limited out by the box/stops.

 

[Mace]

It actually works both ways. The fluid will go to the easiest path. Either the box or to the ram. Disconnect the ram and the wheel won't turn till the ram is either extended or retracted. It works as a system.
Chop, now we need a well designed link system in a crawler before hydro assist will work properly?
You are kidding, right?

 

[Chop Shop]

It actually works both ways. The fluid will go to the easiest path. Either the box or to the ram. Disconnect the ram and the wheel won't turn till the ram is either extended or retracted. It works as a system.

Thats is not correct. If you disconnect the ram and turn the wheels you still have a mechanical connection just like if it was a stocker with no assist.

Chop, now we need a well designed link system in a crawler before hydro assist will work properly?
You are kidding, right?

No, not at all but a sloppy set of leaves or loose shackles/bushings can let the steering push the axle side to side before it will want to force the tires to turn.

Generally with a panhard bar in a link setup you will not experience htis unless the joints are worn/sloppy or there is bad geometry/bumpsteer.

Any soft leaf truck will exhibit this. just rock the wheel on flat ground and watch the rig move up and down a little. The taller/steeper the draglink the more the effect.

 

[Mace]

Thats is not correct. If you disconnect the ram and turn the wheels you still have a mechanical connection just like if it was a stocker with no assist.

No it will not. You also have to deal with the return flow from the ram. Go try it. You will be fitting the ram until it maxes out or retracts.

 

[Chop Shop]

No it will not. You also have to deal with the return flow from the ram. Go try it. You will be fitting the ram until it maxes out or retracts.

dude you could take the PUMP and off the LINES off and the RAM off and the truck will still steer.

You just wont have power steering, it will steer manually just fine.

Thats like saying it wont turn when the engine is off.

 

[Medusa]

I give up