HELP! Running/Power/Timing issues

[eshom77]

My FJ60 just spent a week in the shop and has the mechanics, as well as myself, baffled.

Here's the deal: The truck has never made great power since the day I got it. I brought it in because it was exhibiting all the problems of poor timing: barely would start, rev, or make power. The truck continues to lose timing and make barely enough power to move itself after a rebuilt carb and a brand new (and expensive!) distributor. New cap, rotor, sparkplugs, wires, valve adjustment all have failed to dial the truck in. Compression is decent for 190K miles, and I don't believe the head is blown. The mechanics up here in Fraser, CO (9000ft altitude) are baffled at the moment as to what exactly is wrong with it.

Any ideas what is going on here? The shop can't dig deeper into it until Monday, so I'm hoping to find some possibilities to help them out.

Please help me! Thanks. I've been a longtime surfer of this forum, in fact I bought the truck almost 2 years ago from a member on the buy/sell forum on this site.

 

[eshom77]

After speaking to my regular mechanic in Denver, who knows Landcruisers, it appears that the most likely culprit here is the oil pump going bad. He said as soon as a truck starts eating dizzys like mine is (it's broken the shaft off of 2 of them already!) that the oil pump is probably the problem.

That's all well and good until we throw a new oil pump in and it's not the problem, any additional feedback or related experience is still appreciated.

 

[eshom77]

I've been doing some searches on this forum regarding my problems with timing, etc.

It seems the next possibility, if the oil pump isn't somehow responsible for the issues, might be that the timing gears have somehow jumped a tooth? All the marks still line up at TDC, so it doesn't seem to be the case...

I just don't get it. In the shop the timing was dead on, idling was fine and rev-up was smooth, but as soon as I started to drive it away the power dropped to nothing, and it turns out the timing had gone away once again.

Any ideas? I'm a newbie here and this truck has me feeling I'm way in over my head.

 

[bigbrown]

others will know WAY more than myself but my 60 doesn't run that great with the timing mark lined up exactly. i advanced mine until it ran great with a slight ping on long inclines. then i just backed the timing back a little. i don't even think my tdc mark is showing.

now i have good power, no ping, good mileage, 18 vacuum, and 800 rpm idle.

works for me.

 

[eshom77]

Yeah, as I understand it proper timing is 7 degrees BTDC. I was just trying to rule out the timing gears having jumped a tooth in that everything lines up as it should.

Waiting to hear from the mechanic to see if the oil pump was indeed the problem.

Oh, my pocketbook is taking a beating on this one! If only I had a garage, access to my tools and FSM, I could be doing much of this myself, but as luck has it I'm stranded about 100 miles away from any of that.

 

[fourand20]

try replacing the fuel filter or check for clogged fuel lines.....

 

[eshom77]

Aaarrgghhh!

Aaarrgghhh! Here's the latest. Turns out I ended up having to run to Denver on behalf of the shop up here to pick up the oil pump and oil pan gasket they ordered, due to their massive incompetence. Otherwise I was going to be waiting another 2 days just for them to get the parts. Luckily a friend let me borrow his car.

SO, I get back from Denver, give them the parts, and get a call from them about 1.5 hours later, asking for the number of my Landcruiser mechanic in Denver for some advice. Turns out they couldn't get the oil pan off, so they used an impact wrench to get it off, royally f*cking it up in the process. They called the mechanic in Denver AFTER they did this and learned they needed to heat it up with a torch. I made damn sure they knew they just bought me a new oil pan. The best part is I probably will have to run to Denver again tomorrow (in one of their vehicles) for a new pan.

They've had the truck for 3 weeks and it just keeps getting worse!

Needless to say, I DO NOT recommend Hilly's Hooker Service in Fraser, CO.

 

[bigbrown]

hold steady eshom. once you get ahead of all this stuff you'll be lovin your 60 again. i think most people on here had to dump buckets of money and knuckle skin into their rigs to get them running right. i did and now it's more dependable than my f-250.

and if it makes you feel better, my ex-wifes excursion limited depreciated $17,000 in one year! you're makin money

andy

 

[eshom77]

thanks for the encouragement, bigbrown. I need a little right now. This truck has cost me so much time and grief I've really started to question owning the thing at this point, so I need to bring myself back from the brink.

I simply wish I hadn't taken it to this mechanic in the first place. I have no doubt in my mind with the proper facilities and tools that my competence, with input and searches on this board, would have been way beyond what these guys have show thus far. I finally got my FSM sent up here and brought it over to them today.

I'll have to take a little lesson from this, if you want something done right, you do it yourself. Would've been waaay cheaper and much easier on my head if I'd just ponied up and paid to get it towed the 100+ miles to Denver in the first place. Live and learn.

That said, I don't think these mechanics up here are bad guys at all, they're just in way over their heads and I'm paying the consequences.

Maybe tomorrow I'll get my truck. Here's to optimism.

 

[dd113]

OK, oil pump is not the issue. Truck will run just fine unitl it siezes, run an oil pressure check but the pump is not the issue with the bad running.

Dist turns the pump from the dist gear that engages the cam gear. It all works at once. There is a VERY slim chance the cam gear is loose and allowing timing to move, doubt it.


History of motor? Rebuilt? It is possible that timing gears are not correct but they would not idle fine then suddenly get worse.

How were the other 2 dists torn up?

Pull valve cover and verify that valves are closing according to rotor orientation. No idea what is going on but I bet the dist is not seated into the oil pump slot hence not fully engaged in the cam gear smashing dist gears one after another.

Get away from the shop you are at. Hugh Phillips in Grand Junction, Christo in Salida or Rocky Mountain cuisers. Fxxx, sounds like Midas could do better.

 

[eshom77]

I spent some time with the mechanic underneath my truck this morning, trying to help him dial it in. As for the oil pump, I'd say it's a good likelyhood that that is what was throwing off the timing, because sticking a screwdriver in it, there is some play in the pump before it seems to engage, and also felt like it was binding up at a few points during its rotation. Oil pressure has never been great on this truck, and seemed to vary randomly. I know pressures got more to do with worn bearings than anything, but this might be one of those fluky things. When the truck is timed, it runs pretty well--idles nicely at around 700 & revs nice and smooth, but it never held for long because timing kept crapping the bed. As long as this allows it to hold timing, I just might be OK. We'll see.

Outside of that, its certainly time for a proper carb rebuild (I've read posts where Cdan or another forum member has been highly recommended for this--where can I find some info?), and a full checkup on my vacuum system. After a lot of searches this board, I strongly suspect, and need to investigate further, that I have some sort of issue at the intake manifold or somewhere along the lines.

Driving to Denver again tomorrow to pick up the oil pan they're buying. At this point I just need them to get it back together so I can get it over the pass and out of their horribly incompetent hands.

 

[eshom77]

What else could cause it to lose timing so consistently and drastically? I've had issues with the timing for quite awhile now, just would never hold for more than a few miles, even in the hands of a competent mechanic.

 

[bhk]

Sorry, I have no idea on the timing issues.

CDan is the parts manager at American Toyota in Albuquerque. He can give you great prices on OEM Cruiser parts. His contact info is in the vendor section.

JimC (FJ40Jim) is one of several highly recommended carb rebuilders mentioned on the board. I haven't used any of them; I'm just passing the information along.

 

[FJ40Jim]

What else could cause it to lose timing so consistently and drastically? I've had issues with the timing for quite awhile now, just would never hold for more than a few miles, even in the hands of a competent mechanic.

If it is always losing timing (retarding), not just randomly jumping around, then it is one of two possible gears failing.

Most commonly, the elastomer ring is failed in the cam timing gear, allowing the outer gear to walk around the hub.

Alternatively, the dissy drive gear that is pressed onto the OEM camshaft could be losing it's press and walking around the cam. I personally have never seen that failure, only heard of it anecdotally.

If the cam timing gear is failing, it will retard the ignition timing and cam timing. Cam timing will show up as soggy performance, and low compression.

If dissy drive gear is failing, cam timing and compression and power will be unaffected.

Get a real mechanic that is familiar w/ 235-292 Chevy and you'll be fine.

 

[FJ40Jim]

Here's the deal: The truck has never made great power since the day I got it. I brought it in because it was exhibiting all the problems of poor timing: barely would start, rev, or make power. The truck continues to lose timing and make barely enough power to move itself after a rebuilt carb and a brand new (and expensive!) distributor.

Oh, I missed this on the first quick read through. Yeah, the cam timing is way retarded. A $60 cam gear woulda fixed all these symptoms.

 

[eshom77]

That's the best possible explanation I've heard for my problems yet. At this point I just need him to get it back together so I can limp it down to Denver and back to a real mechanic. That said, I don't have my FSM (it's with the mechanic who has been butchering my truck and checkbook) with me, but from the sound of it I can't think replacing the gear should be too hard.

Would be as simple as removing the cam gear cover, unbolting the gears, lining things up and putting it back together? I'm competent with tools and directions, so is this something me as a relative newbie to auto repair? And what about the crankshaft timing gear?

 

[eshom77]

Answered my own question, sounds a little more involved than I naively thought. People have had success without pulling the camshaft itself entirely, but the pulling of the gear and getting it back on sounds a bit more daunting...

 

[eshom77]

someday I'll be able to fit all these thoughts into one post, but for now I keep thinking of things as I work this all through my head.

How common is the cam gear elastomer failing? On a motor with less than 180,000 miles?

 

[jwest]

What exactly is happening to the timing... advancing, retarding, jumping around?
Are you desmogged or what?

Couple of things come to mind if you have a stock setup.

Regarding timing, you're at elevation, what's Fraser, CO. approx. 8,000 ft.? HAC wants to advance your timing at that altitude. Make especially sure that both vacuum hoses (to the main and sub diaphragm) are disconnected from the distributor and plugged. If you try to set timing at that elevation with HAC activated, you'll be way retarded.

Be sure you're lining up the 7° BTDC ball, not the hash mark which is TDC.

If your HAC is malfunctioning, it'll wreak havoc with your timing and might not be leaning your air/fuel mix either. A faulty EGR system will also cause the symptoms you describe but without the timing issue.
I'd check and rule out HAC and EGR before ever dropping in a new distributor or oil pump. I haven't mentioned carburetion because of your rebuild.

Now, if you say your desmogged, this has been a waste of space.

 

[BILWFURIOSIL]

I have to agree wiyh JWEST. If the mechanical gears have moved, they will not intermitently move back to give you good timing. Look for a vacume diaphram/switch/line for your so;ution.
Bill