Head Gasket Evaluation

[LINUS]

[quote author=Scamper link=board=2;threadid=13534;start=msg126455#msg126455 date=1080161757]


So Linus, are you planning to pull the head?


[/quote]

Got no choice but to pull it - right now I'm swamped with a shutdown in the refinery (13 hr days / 7 days a week), so I bought the truck (see sig) to get to and from work until the shutdown is over and C-Dan gets back to the office. I figure I'll do the headgasket, what ever needs to be done to the head itself, slipper for the timing chain, possibly the power steering pump if C-Dan says to, and basically anything else that would be a no-brainer while I'm in there. Do it once right. Also take the time to get the lockers in and do axle servicing in the short-term future now that I have a 2nd rig to drive. Well, engine soon and maybe axles if finances hold out.

 

[Rookie2]

The Bigelow Theory, if proven would be a hell of feather in somebodies cap ???. Would a chemical analysis prove or disprove it?? I wonder if there's anyway to setup up a test to see if there is a chemical reaction created between these two. Anyone for strapping a jug of Prestone to their exhaust pipe ? May need a little more to simulating it than that, with the high pressures and temps.

Why is it again, that this isn't a problem with other vehicles?? Gasket... setup.. installation.. ??

Thanks,
Rookie2

 

[jwest]

One of you guys might want to start a new thread and take a poll.

Something like:
What coolant are you using, OAT (Dexcool, Toyota Red, Extended life, etc.) or non OAT (regular ethylene glycol)? Then, Are you experiencing sludging (radiator caps, radiator, overflow tank, etc)? Blown heater hoses? Blown head gaskets?
Should be vehicle specific and not global.

Curious to see if a pattern develops.

 

[landtank]

Another forum member helped me out with a slightly used radiator. He wanted my old one back for it's tranny cooler section. I just recieved an e-mail from him. It would seem that my old radiator had no visible contamination. Quote "clean as a whistle". It would seem that when the dealer flushed out the radiator they were able to get everything out and the contamination had just started to accur in the system. Here is a pic that I got from him.

 

[Lars]

Here is my gasket with an arrow pointing to where the failure occurred.

 

[ppc]

Looks like the same kind of distortion in #6. I'm surprised that it didn't fail at the 1 o'clock position.

 

[landtank]

Well received more photos on my old Rad. It has been completely taken apart and no signs of any sludge. Considering I live in a cooler area of the States and the cleanliness of the rad I don't think yearly flushes, while good to do, is going to thwart the HG failure.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Not to rain on anybody's parade here, but wouldn't pictures of the gasket on the block before chiseling/razorblading them off be more accurate in terms of their condition? Gaskets get a little beat up during this process, and if nobody else is gonna say it I will - how do you know you guys didn't cause these bends and such while taking things apart? Those are pretty severe and sharply deformed areas.

Great work here, and good stuff. But one other comment merits mentioning. Rick, I don't believe I heard whether you had your radiator sniffed for hydrocarbons or not? I'm having this done for $10 next week and it will tell me if I've got any HG issues. With the jury still out on the grey accumulation's source, this simple test will tell me if I've got any interplay between the compression gases and my coolant.

Curious about the responses to this.

Respectfully,
DougM

 

[Lars]

Doug,

My gasket pretty much just lifted right off. No prying, razor blading or chiseling needed. I doubt I anything I did caused the warpage.
-L

 

[landtank]

Doug,
I didn't have to chisel my gasket off either. Picked it off with my hand. I didn't bother with a sniff test. Once I saw the contamination that was enough for me. Both gaskets have similar issues and breaks to the water jacket. I'm thinking that the kind of pressure and forces it would take to distort the gasket in that way would have to happen over a lengthy period of time. And since it would seem that my contamination may have just started because it hadn't time to really accumilate and clog my radiator, I'm putting the HG damage before the sludge.

You might remember back in January when I first mentioned this and made plans to replace my gasket. I was convinced then that HG was the root of the problem. What I see now after replacing it only supports that idea for me.

If this sniff test is a viable test then maybe others will join you to try and get a good sampling. From the HG poll tha S-A- started it would seem that the trucks with around 130k are the most suceptible to the failure.

Lastly, I'm only one man marching alone. Not much of a parade to rain on!

 

[IdahoDoug]

8) Heh - one man parade, I like it! Interesting that the gaskets came off so easily and such. I'll be interested in seeing what my sniff test reveals. If I have an issue, then it will be quite interesting as this engine has been cared for over the top from the day it was new. Hmm. Heavy towing season is arriving as well. Double hmmm...

Thanks very much for the input you Cruiserheads!

Doug

 

[landtank]

Save the $10.00. We need another test subject

 

[Riley]

I have a feeling that some of us are suffering from the common practice of - hoping that the root cause of the problem is something easy to deal with.

In this case: Hoping that the problem is the cooling system, BECAUSE it's a lot easier to do proper PM than to replace the HG.

I know I've been hoping that the root cause is the cooling system because it makes it easier to sleep at night.

Although I think Rick is right. Sounds like root cause is HG causing cooling system sludge. Doug will be the first step in proving this.

Riley

 

[Lars]

[quote author=Riley link=board=2;threadid=13534;start=msg127918#msg127918 date=1080414106]
In this case: Hoping that the problem is the cooling system, BECAUSE it's a lot easier to do proper PM than to replace the HG.
[/quote]

I dont know. I personally dont feel that maintaning a sparkling clean cooling system would make a difference regarding the head gasket (it certaintly cant hurt but..).

There has to be something that is causing the design to deteriorate but who knows if it's as simple as a maintenance item.

I dont have a history with my vehicle and in turn have no clue what the radiator or fluid looked like prior to me buying it. I do know that the coolant was clean and the radiator looks fine now.

One thing is certain, there are far too many FZJ80's with the failure.... even if you say there is 90 or 100 guys who frequent this board, 12 of us on the poll earlier this year had blown the gasket (wasnt there another person just last week we can add to that number). That percentage is too high and points to something other than an unclean cooling system... again, IMO.

I'm just glad that I wont have an impending gasket failure always on the back of my mind... it is out of the way.

Also I just have to say that landtank had huge balls to tackle this job under the label of PM.


Regards,
Larry

 

[Scamper]

[quote author=Riley link=board=2;threadid=13534;start=msg127918#msg127918 date=1080414106]
I have a feeling that some of us are suffering from the common practice of - hoping that the root cause of the problem is something easy to deal with.

In this case: Hoping that the problem is the cooling system, BECAUSE it's a lot easier to do proper PM than to replace the HG. [/quote]

Actually, I was thinking the other way around--that IF (real big IF) the HG and sludge are associated, then I thought it might be the combustion gases getting into the coolant and fouling it up, causing the slugde. The sludge in this case is only an indicator of a potentially bad HG, but not the cause.

When I suggested that folks should do coolant flushes yearly, it was meant that doing so will let them see if they have any sludge, and if so, take appropriate HG action.

But in truth, we're all just speculating here. So far, there's no real evidence to tie these two observations together other than Rick's engine. I know personally, that when my HG went, the coolant was clean, but mine went catastophically too, so that may make a difference. It would be nice if there were a way to "see it coming"...

Tom

 

[IdahoDoug]

HG issues can indeed come from poor cooling maintenance, which lets acids form and protective additives breakdown. Acids can deteriorate seals and gaskets, and of course localized overheating often is found in the head where heat loads are typically highest. Taken further, an actual system overheat will of course create head warpage and resultant head issues. I suspect that poor cooling system design or maintenance is probably the leading cause of HG issues. So, will be interesting to see what the sniffer tells me. My guy is on vacation next week, so it will be the week after.


DougM

 

[landtank]

That all might be true Doug but when a localized set of engines whether type or production run have an unusually high incident of failure, that's something entirely different. If your sniffer test comes back positive than that's good because we might have an early warning test. If it comes back negative we can suspect your truck is healthy but that's about it.

I did some more exploritory fact finding yesturday. I removed my valve cover and both cams and checked the torque setting of the head bolts after driving the truck for a week. With the exception of 3 bolts they were all at 100 ftlbs. The other three were around 95 ftlbs. I had a Snapon click torque wrench (not sure of the proper name) available so I think the readings are accurate when compared to each other.

I know somebody just had a failure and I thought a comparison of his bolt readings as the truck sits now might be good.

 

[LINUS]

If the new headgasket is an update design I'd be looking at it as the issue, not the cooling system. FWIW, my first LC experience was a FJ60 of my cousin's that had so much rust concentration in the antifreeze when we started going through it there was a orange streak all the way down my driveway (crushed rock out in the country) and we didn't get clear water out the system for over a 1/2 hour of full force garden hose flushing with one of those Prestone hose splice flush taps, and we even had the thermostat out and the housing loosely rebolted. 160K or so when he got it with the original headgasket and it's still in the extended family with over 200K on that same gasket.

I'd bet that if this new headgasket is properly designed we should get the same kind of results with decent maintenance of the cooling system.

 

[landandsea]

The only relationship that I can see between a poorly maintained cooling system and head gasket failure is if the compromised cooling caused overheating which caused the head to warp - defeating the gasket function. Even then, it's not the fault of the head gasket.

The metal ring in the head gasket seals the combustion chamber, right? I don't see how the coolant condition can affect that part of the head gasket. Since the gasket has been redesigned, it seems clear that the problem was the head gasket.

I had a severe sludge problem, ran at above normal temps for 2000 miles and (hope I'm not inviting bad things by saying this) no evidence of head gasket failure at 143k on my '96.

Another thought - if the head gasket fails between an oil passage and a coolant passage and if the piston rings are worn allowing exhaust gasses to get in the crankcase oil, then the exhast gasses could show up in the coolant. But there would most likely be evidence of coolant in the oil or vice versa. That's just sort of off-the -top-of-my-head thought.

Ed

 

[Boom7750]

FWIW, I have had 3 or 4 incidents of over heating (needle-in-the-red), due to a sludged-up radiator. This was several thousand miles ago (I'm now at 93K). Had the rad removed and flushed/cleaned, and since then have had no over-heat issues. Because of this post, I had my local smog shop do a sniff test, reading was zero. No hydro carbons. However, I do have small amounts of orange "film" floating in the Toyota red coolant...any thoughts? I'm thinking possibly some old sludge that has flaked off and is floating freely. I'm having it inspected next week, in preparation for Moab. What does oil in the coolant look like...does it appear orange, when in red coolant??
Thx,
John