gutless 01
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I did the deck plat mod based on
Stock Air Flow Numbers and Mod - Toyota Tundra Forums : Tundra Solutions Forum
It will be interesting to see the dyno. I have headers so the numbers would be a little different.
I really want to figure out a 2.5" exhaust with factory cats modified on both sides to accept the 2.5" pipes.
Stock Air Flow Numbers and Mod - Toyota Tundra Forums : Tundra Solutions Forum
It will be interesting to see the dyno. I have headers so the numbers would be a little different.
I really want to figure out a 2.5" exhaust with factory cats modified on both sides to accept the 2.5" pipes.
The deckplate mod on my taco w/ the 3.4 really improved performance. Obviously the LC is an entirely different beast, but I am sure there will be modest gains. The only downside is that mpgs suffer
. Thanks for making the effort. Skol.
. Thanks for making the effort. Skol.
The deckplate mod on my taco w/ the 3.4 really improved performance. Obviously the LC is an entirely different beast, but I am sure there will be modest gains. The only downside is that mpgs suffer
I'm curious what exactly is changing to increase power. My inclination is to believe that the stock air box really is restrictive. However, it's possible the extra air flow is causing more turbulence around the MAF creating a Lean condition, or a condition where the ECU strategy adds more timing. I wish I had the tools to get into the stock ECU.
I'll run AFR during the dyno run, and I may look and see if I can instrument the cruiser with an EGT sensor. That will give us an indication of whether or not the Timing is changing. Actually given that thought, I may be able to record timing with a CarDaq J2534 device, I'll have to look into that over the next couple days.
I'll keep you all updated.
Well Guys today I was able to install the deck-plate mod, and dyno the cruiser. The deck plate mod went smoothly, and didn't take long to complete.
While I was picking up supplies, I got some CRC MAF cleaner so I could run pre and post runs and prove or dis-prove their proud claims on the can...
Gotta love the marketing guys.
As I posted before based on what I do for a living I was extremely skeptical, and the only thing that pushed me over the edge to install the mod was the Tacoma dyno chart posted on another forum, and my lack of experience with Toyota ECU Fuel Modeling, and MAF sensor sensitivity.
Below you'll find the dyno chart. There was little to no difference in power, my baseline run came on a bit stronger, but I believe that to be my fault as I went WOT a few hundred RPM later than the post runs.
I'd like to point out that my concern as an Engine Calibrator, is the way the fueling strategy is being affected by the opening in the air box. If you look at the AFR curve on the dyno plot you'll notice some jagged up and down spikes in the higher RPM range. This shows that when the Deck Plate Lid is removed there is reversion or resonance causing the MAF sensor to see inconstancies in air flow. It compensates according to how it's calibrated, and the result is a really ugly fuel curve. Something that would be considered un-acceptable in the automotive world. There is a possibility that this could be fixed with some creative plumbing, the engine bay environment may be partially responsible for causing the erratic air flow.
Based on what I found, I wouldn't recommend this mod to anyone, more over I would probably discourage you from doing it based on how it alters the MAF signal and creates the erratic AFR at higher RPM under WOT.
For those of you who are curious, the elevation here is 4500ft, and the SAE CF today was 1.14
Enjoy the photos and if you have any questions please feel free to ask.
-Rob
Exhaust ventilation and AFR sensor:
I chose to use rivets instead of lag screws to secure the deck plate
And the dyno chart:
The Blue Line is the baseline run, this run was made before any modifications were made to the air box
The Red Line is the run made post CRC cleaner, and with the Deck Plate Lid removed, notice the AFR curve between 4000 and 5500 compared to the other two runs.
The Black Line is the run made post CRC cleaner with the Deck Plate Lid installed. Not much different than the baseline.
I also was able to record the total spark advance on all three runs, they were the same, all three runs the timing stayed solid at 25 DBTDC once I went WOT.
The dyno is a Superflow 800 series. It was calibrated within the last 3 weeks. I am a certified Superflow Dyno Operator. All dyno numbers were SAE corrected.
While I was picking up supplies, I got some CRC MAF cleaner so I could run pre and post runs and prove or dis-prove their proud claims on the can...
Gotta love the marketing guys.As I posted before based on what I do for a living I was extremely skeptical, and the only thing that pushed me over the edge to install the mod was the Tacoma dyno chart posted on another forum, and my lack of experience with Toyota ECU Fuel Modeling, and MAF sensor sensitivity.
Below you'll find the dyno chart. There was little to no difference in power, my baseline run came on a bit stronger, but I believe that to be my fault as I went WOT a few hundred RPM later than the post runs.
I'd like to point out that my concern as an Engine Calibrator, is the way the fueling strategy is being affected by the opening in the air box. If you look at the AFR curve on the dyno plot you'll notice some jagged up and down spikes in the higher RPM range. This shows that when the Deck Plate Lid is removed there is reversion or resonance causing the MAF sensor to see inconstancies in air flow. It compensates according to how it's calibrated, and the result is a really ugly fuel curve. Something that would be considered un-acceptable in the automotive world. There is a possibility that this could be fixed with some creative plumbing, the engine bay environment may be partially responsible for causing the erratic air flow.
Based on what I found, I wouldn't recommend this mod to anyone, more over I would probably discourage you from doing it based on how it alters the MAF signal and creates the erratic AFR at higher RPM under WOT.
For those of you who are curious, the elevation here is 4500ft, and the SAE CF today was 1.14
Enjoy the photos and if you have any questions please feel free to ask.
-Rob
Exhaust ventilation and AFR sensor:
I chose to use rivets instead of lag screws to secure the deck plate
And the dyno chart:
The Blue Line is the baseline run, this run was made before any modifications were made to the air box
The Red Line is the run made post CRC cleaner, and with the Deck Plate Lid removed, notice the AFR curve between 4000 and 5500 compared to the other two runs.
The Black Line is the run made post CRC cleaner with the Deck Plate Lid installed. Not much different than the baseline.
I also was able to record the total spark advance on all three runs, they were the same, all three runs the timing stayed solid at 25 DBTDC once I went WOT.
The dyno is a Superflow 800 series. It was calibrated within the last 3 weeks. I am a certified Superflow Dyno Operator. All dyno numbers were SAE corrected.
Wonderful to see some hard data. Thanks for taking the time.
Wow Rob, thanks for the data and the effort.
IIRC, didn't the original deck plate mod post also replace the induction tubing between the airbox and the elbow to the TB with a section of stainless tubing? I'm curious as to how this might affect the charts.
Also, I'm curious as to why there is a lag in the AF curves near the 3000 rpm mark.
Thanks!
Dennis
Editted with link:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/100-series-cruisers/401222-homebrew-fipk-k-n-drop-filter-deckplate-cleaned-maf-tb-hp.html#post5728897
IIRC, didn't the original deck plate mod post also replace the induction tubing between the airbox and the elbow to the TB with a section of stainless tubing? I'm curious as to how this might affect the charts.
Also, I'm curious as to why there is a lag in the AF curves near the 3000 rpm mark.
Thanks!
Dennis
Editted with link:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/100-series-cruisers/401222-homebrew-fipk-k-n-drop-filter-deckplate-cleaned-maf-tb-hp.html#post5728897
Thanks Dennis!
I'm glad you posted that link, i'd read through it but had forgotten that the resonator tube had been removed. I'd be happy to throw another tube in there, I think I have some elbows that size in the garage. I don't anticipate the results to be much different though. Although like most guys I've been wrong my fair share of times
If you all would like to see it I'll throw something together.I'm not familiar at all with the EFI modeling in the toyota PCM, so I can't accurately answer your question about the delay in the fuel curve, but I will tell you what I believe it is based on my experience with Dodge, Ford, Chevrolet, and nissan.
The downward dip in the fuel curve is what I would expect to see when a vehicle switches from closed to open loop fueling. There are normally a handful of parameters that determine the delay from closed to open loop. These can include, Coolant Temp, Air Charge Temp, Throttle position, and in Ford, GM, and Chrysler's case they include a timer. Generally the timer is set to around 10-15 seconds. That may sound crazy but if you look at a US75 (FTP-75) drive cycle that is used for all of the emissions testing, that type of delay is needed to keep the vehicle in closed loop for the entire duration of the test. Open loop falls on to a preset table, there is no real time adjustment of the fueling strategy. When you cross into open loop the efficiency of your catalytic converter generally takes a big hit, and your emissions spike upward drastically. (sorry for the tangent).
My guess is the difference from run to run was simply the delay for open loop fueling. Each run was probably started under slightly different conditions which changed the time it took for the ecu to command open loop.
FWIW, thanks for bringing some science to the land of butt dynos where noise = hp. 
Also, thanks for the tuner box for the 6.7L Cummins. Nothing like barking the duallies through 4th gear.
Also, thanks for the tuner box for the 6.7L Cummins. Nothing like barking the duallies through 4th gear.
If it's not too much cost or trouble, I think the charting of a straight-tube induction would be very helpful to all of us in both our planned mods and greater understanding of the intake system dynamics.
Thanks!
Thanks!
hoser
SILVER Star
Rob, thanks for taking the time to do this. We all appreciate it.
Rob,
You are the man! Thank you. Did you check out the link of the tundra solutions deck plate mod concerning the air box pressure? Was there any air coming into the engine, like if we were traveling, 40 to say 80 mph, and would that make any difference what so ever? Last question, do the think the high flow headers and the deck plate mod together could make a difference or is it probably just the new headers?
Once again, thanks for taking the time to do this?
What is the price for a dyno run?
uzj100
You are the man! Thank you. Did you check out the link of the tundra solutions deck plate mod concerning the air box pressure? Was there any air coming into the engine, like if we were traveling, 40 to say 80 mph, and would that make any difference what so ever? Last question, do the think the high flow headers and the deck plate mod together could make a difference or is it probably just the new headers?
Once again, thanks for taking the time to do this?
What is the price for a dyno run?
uzj100
Thanks for taking the time to dyno your LC. Is your LC converted to part time 4wd or did you just pull the front drive shaft?
What are your thoughts on a smaller orifice to allow more air into the airbox? I'd guess that at a certain orifice diameter the resonance/turbulance could be tuned to work for our application... maybe start with a 1" bore in the cap of the deck plate and working your way up?
What are your thoughts on a smaller orifice to allow more air into the airbox? I'd guess that at a certain orifice diameter the resonance/turbulance could be tuned to work for our application... maybe start with a 1" bore in the cap of the deck plate and working your way up?
https://forum.ih8mud.com/100-series-cruisers/423500-air-pump-more-air-out-need-more-air.html
This is my set up. I wanted to ensure no varmits in the air box.
This is my set up. I wanted to ensure no varmits in the air box.
We have some very large 4' diameter fans that run on 220v service. I'm not sure how many CFM they crank out, but when you walk behind them they want to suck you in. I had the fan running during all of the dyno runs.
The problem I saw wouldn't really be affected by headers. The MAF frequency is changing in a problematic way, headers would let the engine breath more, but until the turbulance/resonance or whatever it is that is causing the MAF to alter fueling is smoothed out, I'm confident the result would be the same, even with headers. I'm sure there is a way around it, and if the airbox is in fact restrictive, there could be some gains made. I've dyno'd vehicles with Cold Air Intakes (CAIs) that make a difference in HP, I also deal with headaches that others cause on a daily basis. I think research and design are key when putting something like this together. With some more time, and maybe some modeling in Flow Works something could be gained. I don't however know if the gain is really worth the time.
Andy I'm not going to lie. When I popped that deck plate and made the first run with it out, I SWORE it was peppier, and got through the run more quickly. But then the dyno blew all the air out of my sail and quickly showed me I was wrong.
That being said, the tone coming from the engine compartment is quite nice, and allows you to hear a nice intake growl from the engine working. It's not an annoying sound like a lot of CAIs i've heard.
My LC is actually full time 2wd right now
The front diff is sitting on the workbench at home waiting for the ARB to go in.I don't know if the smaller orifice is the answer or not. I'm inclined to think that the problem is from how the air is entering the box. If I were to take it further I would try and use a tuned velocity stack to help bring air in. I'm no expert in air flow and thermal dynamics though. I may sit down with a ME friend of mine and model it, just for giggles.
I would honestly be surprised to gains of more than 5-6 whp from a properly modeled/designed CAI.
FWIW, thanks for bringing some science to the land of butt dynos where noise = hp.
Also, thanks for the tuner box for the 6.7L Cummins. Nothing like barking the duallies through 4th gear.
You're welcome!
As for the 6.7 Juice/Attitude, I'll be sure to pass your gratitude on to the guy who developed it. He's one office over from me, and he loves to hear about happy customers
I am astounded! And very grateful that you have used your time and resources to benefit the community. That being said, I think I will save up my beans for a K&N FIPK and run it with a dry flow filter from AEM to prevent the MAF fouling issues others have experienced with oiled filters. My airbox will remain intact for the time being. Thanks again!
