Grey stuff in rad opinion (1 Viewer)

[Riley]

I'm not sure why the heck we are making such a big deal about the resistance of the coolant anyway

i was thinking about trying to get some of that sludge out (assuming that I have some). Pulling the rad seems like a hassle... after flushing the system including the heater cores as suggested by Rich.... I was thinking about using the wet-dry shop vacuum with a small hose attachment to vacuum the top of the rad near the return hose. How's that for lazy....

Thanks for the refresher on basic electric circuits guys... it beats the heck out of 8-PSK modulators and saw filters.

 

[Rich]

Riley,

Unfortunately, I don't think the shop vac would buy you much.

Perhaps, if you had a long and somewhat flexible but mostly stiff brush you could resuspend some of the sludge sitting on top of the core while flooding the radiator from below through the lower hose. But the sludge that is actually causing the real problem is the sludge that sits inside the top of the tubes, blocking off the flow of coolant. It really doesn’t seem to be inclined to move much once in the tubes, unless a lot of force is used.

With a cold engine just remove the radiator cap and stick your finger in a drag your fingertip across the top of the core. If you have the sludge, it should show up there. Won't even have to drain the coolant to check.

 

[syrinxstar]

[quote author=Rich link=board=2;threadid=14475;start=msg138835#msg138835 date=1081919605]Electricity does not follow the path of least resistance.[/quote]

WOW!! Rich, you've elevated yourself to comical level. Electricity does follow the path of least resistance and this is a pillar of electrostatics. Ever heard of a short circuit? :-[ Take your own example. If you had a 12V battery across the two resistors you've named in parallel, guess how much of the current travels through the 100K ohm resistor. [waiting....]

The effective resistance of the circuit will draw 2.40012 amps of current. 99.995% of that current is going through the 5 ohm resistor. Or 0.005% of the current is going through the 100k ohm resistor. Why? Because electricity, like fluids, will follow the path of least resistance. Does ALL the electricity (i.e. current) follow the path of least resistance? No, and it will be proportional and there certainly will be cases where one path is not so dominant over another. It shouldn't take you long (giving you credit here) that when the coolant-ground circuit is established, the bulk of the current will get to the coolant by any number of short circuits in the system, bypassing hoses, heads, blocks, whatever. When the test is repeated over time (accounting for the state of the battery) that current will again find the most expeditious way to the coolant so there is reason to believe that whatever that current may be, it is not substantially influenced by other changing resistances in the system. In examples such as yours, there is a proportional amount of current in the 100k leg of circuit but in the end, it's negligible, and it's important to recognize that.

Listen, this is a tired subject and more than one person, myself included, has recognized the inconsequence of it. For my part, I won't be adding any more in relation to this on the board. Feel free to PM me if you wish to continue the discussion -

 

[RavenTai]

Well it is obvious reading the posts above that you guys did not read my post or think it is of no value, so I'll post it again

[quote author=RavenTai link=board=2;threadid=14475;start=msg138444#msg138444 date=1081890550]
coolant can generate a voltage if there is corrosion (especially galvanic corrosion) or other chemical reactions taking place, I thought this is why we were taking measurements? with the engine off I get no voltage potential between the block and neg post of the battery, so I do not think the voltage we see in the coolant is stray voltage from another circuit but generated right there in the cooling system

http://www.reliability.com/articles/guest_article03.htm
[/quote]



and In hope of getting this thread back on track have a picture:

in this picture I would like you to note that not only is the + terminal disconnected but it is shorted to the negative terminal via a jumper cable, the key is off and the vehicle has been at rest all night, there is absolutely no activity in the cruisers electrical system in this state. The meter is grounded to the body screw just forward and outboard of the battery (barely visible in pic) I am holding the other lead in the coolant


is this enough proof that this is not stay voltage from the vehicles electrical system? This voltage is being made right in the cooling system, I would like this group of well informed smart people to start hammering out why there is this voltage instead of barking up the wrong tree and at each other

also have not heard that anyone has any of this gray stuff to test

 

[semlin]

ok, I will try to hi-jack again...

Maybe we can figure out a way to increase this voltage and dispense with a battery altogether?

 

[e9999]

errr, RT. Did the same measurement. Why can't that be a stray current? There is 12 V available and there is ground. There is coolant somewhere in between. If everything else is not a perfect insulator (no such thing) there will be stray currents going everywhere including coolant, admittedly small.
E

 

[RavenTai]

[quote author=e9999 link=board=2;threadid=14475;start=msg139093#msg139093 date=1081967523]
errr, RT. Did the same measurement. Why can't that be a stray current? There is 12 V available and there is ground. There is coolant somewhere in between. If everything else is not a perfect insulator (no such thing) there will be stray currents going everywhere including coolant, admittedly small.
E
[/quote]

because in the above picture there is no 12v you can see that the + terminal is disconnected not only that but the vehicles side + wire is shorted to the neg post through a jumper cable, no voltage potential at all anywhere in the electrical system, but yet there is still voltage in the coolant

there are other reasons why it is not stray current but I do not want to muddy the waters the above is reason enough

I posted this before but I do not think anyone read it

http://www.reliability.com/articles/guest_article03.htm

wet corrosion could be one explanation for the voltage, there are also other chemical processes that can produce a voltage, I don't know if this is related to the gray sludge but is a possibility

 

[landtank]

So RavenTai, how do you like your interstate?

 

[RavenTai]

LOL

I don't like it much, it is a samll 650CCA installed by the PO, when I go to dual batteries it is coming out

 

[e9999]

RT, didn't see the disconnect part, sorry.
Anyway, there is still plenty of capacitors in there, isn't there?
But never mind. I'll just keep measuring mine for fun. Should show if the fluid changes.
E

 

[robbie]

A small comment on design of the Crusier. The came into a market that was speed limited to 55-65 in most states and now we have a national speed limit in most states of 75 (a lot travel 80 -85). No wonder we think the cruiser is under powered. They cruise wonderfully at the design speed limits they were brought into the states. The first year of the 100 series is when I noticed that the speed limits in NM was raised.
At lower elevations I would be they hang with traffic rather well if they were going the posted speed limits instead of the flow speed limit that happens to be way higher in a lot of situations.
Later robbie

 

[robbie]

By the way lots of usefull information. thanks for the efforts of all contributing to this thread. robbie

 

[RavenTai]

[quote author=e9999 link=board=2;threadid=14475;start=msg139246#msg139246 date=1081980120]
RT, didn't see the disconnect part, sorry.
Anyway, there is still plenty of capacitors in there, isn't there?
But never mind. I'll just keep measuring mine for fun. Should show if the fluid changes.
E


[/quote]


yes there are capacitors and when I disconected the battery there was some residual voltage in the + lead on the truck side (just over one volt) but it was falling fast, that is the reason I shorted this lead to the negative post that bled off any voltage left in the capicitors,

shorting both leads together puts all parts of the electrical system at the same potenital from both sides

 

[turbocruiser]

[quote author=RavenTai link=board=2;threadid=14475;start=msg139078#msg139078 date=1081966912]

is this enough proof that this is not stay voltage from the vehicles electrical system? This voltage is being made right in the cooling system, I would like this group of well informed smart people to start hammering out why there is this voltage instead of barking up the wrong tree and at each other

[/quote]

Yes, finally, this is what I was starting to say so long ago, the electricity 'generated' in the current is what we are measuring. This electricity may or may not be what is related to the life of the coolant. The whole conversation about stray voltage, again, look at what I wrote so long ago, helps in extreme cases where some system (radiator) fails, and is swollen, and has high voltage readings. The rest of the cases are trying to tell whether something more than .3 volts for example can be correlated with coolant that is past its prime. Also, there has been much barking, I think, and we collectively want to figure something out so the barking is not necessary, or at least not as necessary as figuring this frickin thing out!!!

 

[IdahoDoug]

Um, so who's got some sludge we can test so we know what this stuff is instead of knocking our heads together on one of many possible sources. Why are we still yapping about that vs anxiously waiting for a lab to tell us what's in it?

DougM

 

[Rich]

For any who may be interested, I have spent quite a bit of time web researching coolant related radiator problems. Based on the research I have done, the only value of measuring the voltage potential between coolant and ground, with the battery connected and electrical items switched both on and off, including the engine, and starter, is to determine if stray current due to poor grounds is contributing to radiator corrosion.

There are numerous commercial tests available to evaluate coolants, including evaluating a coolant's fitness for continued use.

Some firms have in the past advocated (and performed for a fee) conductance measurement of coolant in order to attempt to ascertain the total amount of dissolved solids in the coolant. These tests are not considered very useful, due to the fact that the vast majority of the conductance is due to the glycol in the coolant, and not the dissolved solids.

The suggestion raised in this thread that measuring coolant conductance may be useful is, on its face, a reasonable suggestion.

My comment that measuring the voltage to ground was not measuring conductance of the coolant was a polite way of saying "hey guys, you are on the wrong track in presuming that the voltage measurement is meaningful with respect to the coolant life remaining, particularly if you think your are measuring conductance of the coolant. The effects of the engine, radiator, and electrical system are what is primarily driving the voltage being measured and it is not reasonable to expect that these factors will remain constant enough over a period of time so that they can be ignored.

The statement that measuring voltage from coolant to ground while in the engine is the same as measuring the resistance or conductance of the coolant is just plan wrong, despite the many different ways Mike has tried to say he did or did not say that, and that regardless of whether he said this or that, that it is in fact true. It is not true, and proceeding as if it is would be a waste of anybody's time.

If anyone wants to further pursue using conductance to evaluate coolant life, then they need to accurately measure the conductance, and not what stray voltage happens to exist within the engine from time to time. A more rational starting point is to just find out what the industry is already doing in this field. I have already posted a website that provides a good jumping off point for anybody who is interested pursuing this further and that is www.amalgatech.com. Look at the specific tests they offer, and review their tech documents. Despite the cheesy website, it appears they offer substantial expertise in this field. They directly comment on using conductance measurement to evaluate coolant life remaining.

With respect to voltage being measured with the battery disconnected, on the face of it, it is not surprising, as what you have is an aluminum radiator, which is extremely susceptible to galvanic action, coupled by coolant to a cast iron block capped by an aluminum head. For those inclined, measure the voltage from the aluminum core (outside the radiator) to the engine block and see what you get. I haven't done this, but I expect that the radiator and block are two plates in a oversize, inefficient, low capacity battery.

Doug does have it right that having a firm that understands engine coolant failure analysis examine the sludge would likely result in an expert opinion as to the immediate cause of the sludge, and addition, I expect, an enumeration of the most likely root causes.

 

[Beowulf]

Doug,

I don't have any sludge or know of anyone currently suffering from the malady. My coolant was replaced in Jan 2004 and the stuff that came out was 16 months old and looked like cherry Kool-Aide.

I stand ready to send my $$ contribution to the cause.

-B-

 

[e9999]

OK, got some sludge!
About 2 or 3 tablespoons is all I was able to gather.

Interesting stuff. When left for a long time alone, it got fairly compacted and showed some structural integrity. But once stirred it stays in suspension easily and moves readily with water. So it looks like essentially a significant yield stress but low viscosity after that. This probably means a high enough level of pressure to unplug things, but if you get it going, it should come out with water pretty easily.

Anyway, if somebody with an accounting bend is willing to organize the Paypal collection, I stand ready to contribute some sludge to the cause! Eh, that does sound good!

E