Good discussion on more power from the 2F on the 40 series tech section

Discussion in '60-Series Wagons' started by Mike S, Jun 15, 2005.

  1. Mike S

    Mike S

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  2. Tapage

    Tapage Club 4X4 Panamá SILVER Star

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    We need to go .. ! Thanks Mike

    P.S. I send to your mail some pics ( from TLC here in Panamá ) dis your recive it .. ? ;)
     
  3. Mike S

    Mike S

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    Not yet...
     
  4. Cruisergreg

    Cruisergreg

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    Just keep in mind that a 60 weighs the better part of a ton more than a 40 and can carry a lot more stuff. Basic physics. I've seen at least 2 local guys (ahem, I was one) try to tweak the 2f using the typical avenues and while, yes, you can get a racing 200 hp 2F, but it will still lack the driveability, comfort, towability or quietness of an out-of-the-box 350. Just takes more effort to drive. Probably less of a concern in a 40 but I think most wagon guys are looking for a comfier, more trip friendly rig.

    A stock well-tuned 2F in a 40 is more than ample for most intended uses, but a 3 ton wagon is a different story.
     
  5. sportbiker929

    sportbiker929

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  6. Cruisergreg

    Cruisergreg

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    Nope. That may be the published curb weight, but I've had mine weighed twice. Over 5,900 lbs with 2 people, HD bumpers, sliders, winch, etc. but no luggage or other gear.
     
  7. Mace

    Mace rock scientist.. Staff Member s-Moderator

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    Greg,
    I cannot understand why people feel they MUST dog the 2F. Even in a thread that is designed to just give ideas for more power out of a 2F.

    I will honestly say that there are people out there that know more about getting power out of a cruiser motor than you. Your statements are broad and not necessarialy true. A stock 2F was 155hp. A stock TBI 350 (The most common v8 to swap into a cruiser) is 180hp... Beating a TBI 350 with a 2F is easy. WITHOUT a decrease in driveability, comfort???? and towing abiliity..

    V8's are an awesome motor. But they are not for everyone. You make it sound like there is no way that a 2F can even be acceptable in a 60...

    BTW, I have seen your rigs,.. you dont build lite do you :flipoff2:
     
  8. Cruisergreg

    Cruisergreg

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    I don't build light, anymore...but the rig does what I want it to now.

    I have NO interest in dogging the 2F. It is the perfect motor for the 40. I had a stock one in my 40 for 10 years and loved it - easily out ran my buddy's "built" 60 2F...while towing a pop-up trailer.

    And that's my point. This poor guy spent $$$ and hours doing all of the recommended mods - shaved head, RV cam, header, carb mods, Pertronic ig, free flow exhaust, K&N, etc. and I could still out pull him with the stock 40.

    And your numbers...

    The stock 87-93 GM LO5 TBI truck motor produces 210 HP and the largest HP rating I've ever seen for any 2F was 135.

    Yes you can build a "racing" 2F that will spit out some high HP but these mods are not bolt-on and in the end a motor swap may be easier and cheaper. The power range of tweaked motors like the 2F can be harder to manage than stock - more shifts, running higher RPMs, lumpy idle, whatever.

    And finally, the basic fact is that the 2F is what, about 4.3 liters overbored? The 350 is 5.7 liters stock. This provides a much broader HP range and more even power through the RPMs - a more user friendly characteristic for "driving around" especially in our high altitude Rocky Mt west.

    I really have no agenda here other than to lessen other 60 owner's learning curves who are not happy with the output of the 2F. I nearly got divorced over spending too much time and money trying to get my 2F to perform the way I needed: de-smog, header, carb mods, free-flow, and a TBI install that took three months and never worked the way I wanted. I quit before doing any internal mods because I saw the futility...
     
  9. Mace

    Mace rock scientist.. Staff Member s-Moderator

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    BUt you are dogging the 2F. for no other reason than to do it.

    This thread was here to point out that there are options to get more HP out of a 2F than was provided stock. Leave it at that. It is not a discussion that the 2F is inadequate for a FJ60..

    I am sorry that you and your friend had so much trouble with a 2F. But what you are saying is not an absolute. it is your opinion..

    If someone is truly not happy with the power output of a 2F then by all means replace it with a V8. If they want just a bit more power out of one then there are mods you can do.

    BTW, I have beaten a TBI350 in the sand with my 2F. Mine drives just fine.

    Hopefully when I am done with the motor for my 60 (turbo/TBI 2F) I can take you out in it and show you that it is not futile ;)
     
  10. GLTHFJ60

    GLTHFJ60 Rum Runnin' SILVER Star

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    DID YOU SAY A TURBO 2F?!?!? I have never heard of someone who has done this type of conversion on that motor. They usually just swap it out for something else. How big of a turbo are you going to use? What TBI setup?

    I have problems with both sides of the argument.

    For a comfort cruiser rig, the 2F, I feel, is better. It would be quieter than the V8 and obviously easier to use, because of the conversion. The 2F is also a reliable motor that can last a lifetime if properly maintained. They could use more power in such a heavy rig, but they are not that grossly underpowered. Remember, these rigs were built to go anywhere, just not that fast. Note the RPM range for going off roading, redline around 4k.

    In terms of building a hot rod rig, you can do anything with the 2F that you want. Hypothetically, one could build a methane burning dragster that will still run on the street, the downside is that it takes more time and effort.

    The same can be said about the TBI 350. That is a good motor, but if they have been well-used, then they can have the same type of power that the 2F does in reality. Remember, we are not talking stock power numbers, we are talking abou present-day numbers. A well-maintained 2F can have just as many miles as a TBI 350 and have the same power. I feel that the 2F is a better engine in terms of long-term reliability and general engineering.

    The TBI was just a quick fix for GM because they were behind in developing Fuel Injection. If I were going to do a V8 swap, I would not get a TBI because it involves a great deal more electronics for close to the same fuel mileage and just about the same power as the carburated 350. I would get the carbed' smallblock not only because it is a simpler swap, but because there are many more aftermarket upgrades.

    What you two are arguing is personal opinion and experiences, and therefore you will get nowhere. Mace will stay with the 2F and create his hot rod, which I WANT TO SEE, (clearing throat) and Cruisergreg will go with the TBI 350. Let it be.

    This is NOT my $.02 because that is a FLAMING CLICHE!!!!!!!

    Have a nice day.

    :beer:
     
  11. Gumby

    Gumby Supamod Staff Member s-Moderator

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    I'll dog the 2F.

    Just about any I-6 will last a bazillion miles because it has perfect primary and secondary balance and is overbuilt for it's power output. I have not seen great reliability out of the F or 2F. Not more so than the Ford 4.9 or the Dodge slant 6 or the Chevy 250. They are heavy and under-powered. They were made by Toyota long past when they were obsolete. Why? because for the market they were built for, the third world, durability is everything. Simplicity is king. Parts interchangability is important.

    Running an I-6 is great. 2JZ, 7MGTE, BMW 3-series, Benz motors, and the 1FZ-FE are good motors. They use modern materials and manufacturing techniques to overcome some of the inherant shortcomings of the I-6. I don't think I'd swap out my 1FZE for a 350.

    The 350 is one of the great motors of all time, along with the 22R and 2JZ. I'm not a fan of the 2F. I've got too many wrecked cranks and pistons laying around the shop.

    One of my students drove by last night with his 66 Barracuda. It was a rust-free POS when he was a student a couple of years ago. Yesterday it looked great. Really nice. I didn't think you could make a mid-60s 'cuda look that good. Under the hood he had a slant six. It was built. Big cam, big Holley, headers. Once it's modified, it's no longer stock and no longer worth keeping. He could have twice the performance for half the price. The decreased strain on the engine by running a stock 340 over a built slant 6 will make the V-8 last longer and be more reliable.

    If keeping it stock is your thing, that's cool. If having something unique is important to you, by all means build the crap out of a 6, but as much of a Toyota nut as I am, I can not defend the 2F as a great motor.
     
  12. GLTHFJ60

    GLTHFJ60 Rum Runnin' SILVER Star

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    I agree. The 2F is not a GREAT motor, but it gets the job done. One needs to look at the cost efficiency of having a built stock motor over having a bigger motor put in. I will personally go to a big diesel when I get the money because I would prefer to have the extra power.

    The smallblock 350 is indeed a legendary motor, the TBI is not.

    :beer:
     
  13. Mace

    Mace rock scientist.. Staff Member s-Moderator

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    Actually, Arguing the swap is futile. People are going to believe what they want to. And the 350 CAN easily make more power than a 2F. I am just tired of people continually dogging the 2F.
    That is all :)



    GLTHFJ60, I currently have a turbo 2F in my 40. It is a super easy swap.

    here is a really bad pic of it.

    "wet" system using a T04 and a single 3" exhaust sytem.. The thing flat out spanks..

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2005
  14. GLTHFJ60

    GLTHFJ60 Rum Runnin' SILVER Star

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    Agreed, it is a bad pic. HAHA!!

    That is a cool setup. I PM'd you.

    Where did you buy that? Stock Manifolds? Hopefully? Fabrication? Total Cost? Smog Equipment?

    :beer:
     
  15. Mace

    Mace rock scientist.. Staff Member s-Moderator

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    Gumby, you are dogging the 2F for doing exactly what it was supposed to do. .. Does that make sense???

    You going to say a cummins is a bad motor too??? :flipoff2:

    The only reason the 350 is one of the best motors of all time is because they made ABIZILLION of them.. And the aftermarket responded...

    In itself the motor is not that impressive. the multiple itterations of it show where it lacks in general..
     
  16. Tapage

    Tapage Club 4X4 Panamá SILVER Star

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    you adapt this TBI inyection system from ..? and you adjust the Garret T04 to more psi ..?
     
  17. Cruisergreg

    Cruisergreg

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    This is an open forum and the threads are living, evolving discussions filled with...opinions.

    I have seen many people (myself included) develop a misconception that with all the talked about 2F mods you are essentially recreating a 350 under the 2F valve cover. You are not. Yes you can tweak a 2F to "make as much power as a V8" but this is misleading because they have different power curves and other characteristics which will make them drive differently in the same vehicle.

    I only wanted to point this out so that people who wanted the same characteristics I did could make a more informed decision and avoid some of my grief.

    Sorry for the bandwidth folks, I go away now...
     
  18. rookie

    rookie

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    Just my quick 2-cents....

    I have an stock '84 Fj60 and a '89 Fj62 with a 350 (someone recently beat the $h!t out of it). Though the 62 I just barely got, and I had very limited time driving it, there was NO compairison in street power. I know that this isnt a threat to prove what has more power. Though clearly if your looking for raw power the 350 is the way to go. Since my trucks are mainly DD. the additional power is nice on the highway. Im now in the process of getting rid of my 62 (selling/giving it to my nephew) but Im personally wanting to take the 350 out before I give it to him.

    Im not bashing the 2f, my situation calls for more highway miles then off-road action. I think most people would give up the low end tourqe for the extra HP on the street. That and the cost of a 350 conversion vs. beefing up the 2f to have equal power, im think the conversion would be the way to go.!?

    Also my 60 only gets about 10-12 mpg (gas). Im pretty sure that if given the chance my 62 would have given me 15-18....well possibly, I have a heavy foot.
     
  19. wingysataday

    wingysataday

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    I want to here more about the turbo...s*** people quit fighting. I want a alcohol, turbo, NOS, 2f Now!
     
  20. Mace

    Mace rock scientist.. Staff Member s-Moderator

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    Yes it is.. But wold you go in to a how to build a 350 thread with--

    "hemis are better, 350's suck"


    That is all I am saying..

    BTW, ALL motor develp different powercurves and tendencies depending on how they are built.. A 350 can be built in a variety of fashions, so can a 2F..

    I'll post build pics and specs on my next turbo 2F project. Chances are it will cost less than a 350 conversion (mostly because I am a cheap bastard ;) )
     
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