As had been mentioned previously, an auto in an underpowered engine kinda blows.
What do a lot of FJ62 guys want? The 5 speed stick.
What do a lot of FJ62 guys want? The 5 speed stick.
Given Choice: Auto or Manual?
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Power has little/nothing to do with off-roading, unless you suck at it.
I'd choose bigger axles long before bigger power; where the manual falls on its ass is when you need to shift gears and you lose way. Auto helps with this immensely. I've done both, and will choose Auto.
Well it's depends kind of OffRoad you do .. you ain't gonna get up to a slippery muddy hill with a 3F auto .. no matter which R&P you have ..
Toyota made the brilliant decision at some point to put in some models an auto tranny behind a 2H ( NA ) engine .. dude, that was a slow model out of the dealer ..
Toyota made the brilliant decision at some point to put in some models an auto tranny behind a 2H ( NA ) engine .. dude, that was a slow model out of the dealer ..
Not sure I 100% agree with that. Deep mud and sand dunes call for power. Can't crawl through that kind of stuff.
And that is the nub of the question. Am not sure if Toyota really thought people would be taking trucks places "just to see if they could get stuck".
I cannot think of any single practical driving situation, off road, where power does anything but get your stuck faster.
But then, I don't intentionally try to aim for the crappy line to stress my driving platform. Don't really "get" why anyone would.
Manual.
Was raised on manual and did ALL of my off-roading before the 80 on manual. To be fair, I've not done enough serious 'wheeling with the 80 to make a full and fair comparison of all the situations I encountered with manual trans rigs. Sand for one, and that is where a auto tranny has some clear advantages.
Not to disparage anyone's preference, but you'll note the few of us who do prefer manuals do note how easy an auto makes things. No, no need to worry about your man-point score here. I'm NOT saying that so please let's just not go there.
What's at work is called "muscle memory." Very little need for that with an auto. To get it with a manual does require a little practice and lots of experience. No man-points there, just to re-affirm I'm not impugning anyone's choice. But after awhile most of what people complain about with manuals, your body learns to do instinctively, errr, automatically
You do get in situations off-road where you have to think on a manual. This is what usually causes people to say the heck with manuals, but it's where the fun begins once you've mastered the skill.
I do a lot of my favorite 'wheeling in the mountains and have always relied on compression braking for a lot of my technique. Hoping to figure out how worthless that experience is this summer by taking the 80 there. I'll be able to have more insight into this question then, but I'm certain it won't change my preference for manual, please.
Was raised on manual and did ALL of my off-roading before the 80 on manual. To be fair, I've not done enough serious 'wheeling with the 80 to make a full and fair comparison of all the situations I encountered with manual trans rigs. Sand for one, and that is where a auto tranny has some clear advantages.
Not to disparage anyone's preference, but you'll note the few of us who do prefer manuals do note how easy an auto makes things. No, no need to worry about your man-point score here. I'm NOT saying that so please let's just not go there.
What's at work is called "muscle memory." Very little need for that with an auto. To get it with a manual does require a little practice and lots of experience. No man-points there, just to re-affirm I'm not impugning anyone's choice. But after awhile most of what people complain about with manuals, your body learns to do instinctively, errr, automatically
You do get in situations off-road where you have to think on a manual. This is what usually causes people to say the heck with manuals, but it's where the fun begins once you've mastered the skill.
I do a lot of my favorite 'wheeling in the mountains and have always relied on compression braking for a lot of my technique. Hoping to figure out how worthless that experience is this summer by taking the 80 there. I'll be able to have more insight into this question then, but I'm certain it won't change my preference for manual, please.
I've done all of my wheeling with a manual as well. And I use compression braking all the time with the 80, works great. Before I got this 80 I was always saying no way I'd drive an auto...
The one and only thing I don't love about my 80 is the auto tranny: lousy wheel control in soft / slick conditions.
I'll most likely be downgrading to a 60 when she finally rusts out so I can get the clutch - unless I can find a sweet stick 70.
It’s the point-and-click versus manual camera argument.
95% of the time, the auto gives you what you want a lot easier. It’s how bad you want that other 5% that determines whether it’s worth the extra effort for the easy 95%.
I'll most likely be downgrading to a 60 when she finally rusts out so I can get the clutch - unless I can find a sweet stick 70.
It’s the point-and-click versus manual camera argument.
95% of the time, the auto gives you what you want a lot easier. It’s how bad you want that other 5% that determines whether it’s worth the extra effort for the easy 95%.
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There is no such thing as "muscle memory". That's purely a myth.
I've off-roaded for a living. As in J.O.B., 60 hours a week, 365 weeks a year.
Nothing like knowing you will die and murder your passengers in the process if you miss that down-shift while making a hairpin turn on a steep marble grade with six inches of marble dust on it to make things real.
And I don't count that "balls in the throat, omg we are all going to die" feeling as "fun".
But YMMV.
Always have preferred a manual. Recently learned a trick if you stall on a incline. Leave your truck in gear with no feet on brake or clutch. Start the truck and let the starter walk you right up with a little throttle. Saw a 60 and 70 series, @beno, do this in Moab. I was amazed that it worked.
There is no such thing as "muscle memory". That's purely a myth.
I've off-roaded for a living. As in J.O.B., 60 hours a week, 365 weeks a year.
Nothing like knowing you will die and murder your passengers in the process if you miss that down-shift while making a hairpin turn on a steep marble grade with six inches of marble dust on it to make things real.
And I don't count that "balls in the throat, omg we are all going to die" feeling as "fun".
But YMMV.
I can see you're trying to post up some man-points here. I won't bother other than noting I learned to drive off-road. Nothing real dangerous down on the farm, but it could be a long walk in the sun if you judged wrong.
I just try to get down the trail, shiny-side up. Nothing dramatic. You do sound like someone who believes he has man-points at stake here, so I won't poke a stick in your cage further other than to note that experts in several fields cite various definitions of muscle memory. I worked a joint faculty-grad student seminar on memory and heard a expert concert pianist describe his take on it. Here are several citations you might find interesting if you can get over your mythology hang-up:
Yep, even worms have it: Muscle memory
It's a fairly well-known factor in physiology and sports training: Muscle Memory: A Coaches Perspective | DNA Sports
And it's recognized as a significant factor in training heavy equipment operators: Muscle Memory - Simlog
Personally, if I was worried about my driving killing people, I'd prefer to do my own thinking in dicey situations, rather than rely on some dumb metal case. You can usually anticipate what an auto might do, but control over it can be hit or miss on a fractional second basis. With a manual, you know you're in control. Don't trust yourself vs the slushbox? Then yeah, don't put anyone's life at risk with either would be my take.
No man-points at stake. Yes, worms have it, because they don't have a real brain.
Human beings have "zero" "muscle memory" outside of their autonomic muscles (heart muscles "know" they are supposed to be part of the heart/finger muscles "know" they belong to a finger. etc.)
What people who don't really understand nerve function (many of which are coaches and other practitioners) call "muscle memory" is actually a form of motor learning. It really doesn't matter in practical terms, until you actually need to know it to teach high level performance and/or reconstructing damage. Then it's critical to understand that fact.
As far as "relying on some metal case" is concerned, if you don't want to "rely on some metal case", then you are stuck walking, aren't you?
Human beings have "zero" "muscle memory" outside of their autonomic muscles (heart muscles "know" they are supposed to be part of the heart/finger muscles "know" they belong to a finger. etc.)
What people who don't really understand nerve function (many of which are coaches and other practitioners) call "muscle memory" is actually a form of motor learning. It really doesn't matter in practical terms, until you actually need to know it to teach high level performance and/or reconstructing damage. Then it's critical to understand that fact.
As far as "relying on some metal case" is concerned, if you don't want to "rely on some metal case", then you are stuck walking, aren't you?
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Mud is some funny entertainment, how fast we descend from simple question to dick size.
My 2 cents, 35 years ago as a state engineer in FL, fields inspectors spent their life driving off road so I asked them when I bought my first jeep, they all said auto. We had both auto and stick trucks in e fleet, they showed me how the stick trucks were never checked out. At the time these were long time veterans drivers where if you got stuck, you couldn't walk out because the alligators would eat your sorry ass. Anyway, they told me never get a stick for off road so I never did. I did, however, drive mostly stick for my regular and racing cars, heel and toe did become an easy reflex.
My 2 cents, 35 years ago as a state engineer in FL, fields inspectors spent their life driving off road so I asked them when I bought my first jeep, they all said auto. We had both auto and stick trucks in e fleet, they showed me how the stick trucks were never checked out. At the time these were long time veterans drivers where if you got stuck, you couldn't walk out because the alligators would eat your sorry ass. Anyway, they told me never get a stick for off road so I never did. I did, however, drive mostly stick for my regular and racing cars, heel and toe did become an easy reflex.