Valley Hybrids, Georg Estere. You would either need to tow it to Stockton or try to use some sort of liquid mechanic to nurse it up there. He does to notch work and will make right the first time.
Frank
Frank
Getting a bad feeling here... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Bud_Dude
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Or, pull and ship the engine. Though, for the tank and a half of gas to go each way and a chance to see all the cool stuff in his shop driving might make for a fun road trip.
Frank
Frank
- Thread starter
- #23
Sounds like a nice shop Frank, but really too far away. I've emailed the local shops SD Trux, Noah's, and a couple others to see what they have to say... I'll probably end up doing it myself, but might give it to a shop if the price and vibe are right.
Hopefully have a good experience. We never know when we will be next. Someone local would be great.
Frank
Frank
- Thread starter
- #25
Well SD Trux replied to my inquiry and said they're no longer working on older TLCs that haven't been in their shop before. Noah's Arks also replied and said no because they're booked through the end of the year. Putting together a shopping list now for the parts, considering Wits End for their one stop shopping on gasket kit(s)...
Waffling on re-using the old head bolts (assuming they measure out ok), buying new bolts; or using ARP studs and going with their 80 ft-lbs torque vs the Toyota FSM procedure. Any recommendations?
Check out MJM engines in esco, they are a machine shop and do general engine repair. I've used them for machine work with good results. To do it right, you'll want to have a machine shop check out the head and have it fully rebuilt as well as a trained eye look at the rest of the engine, to make sure no other looming problems are present. Toyotas are not known for eating head gaskets (if that is even what it is) for no reason. If you are intending to just slap a new head gasket without doing more diagnosis, you are potentially setting yourself up for massive disappointment and self induced suicide watch upon that first start up. A place like MJM is a one stop shop, they can do all the work and give you a piece of mind of a warranty backing up their work.
As far as re-using bolts and cutting other corners, don't do it. Follow the FSM and replace what is recommended especially head bolts, if you still plan on doing it yourself. Or if you use a shop insist they use OEM parts. When I dealt with them, I provided my own parts, mainly because it was easier for me to source since it was a diesel. But they seem reputable and all they do is work on engines.
Remember the saying, buy once, cry once.
As far as re-using bolts and cutting other corners, don't do it. Follow the FSM and replace what is recommended especially head bolts, if you still plan on doing it yourself. Or if you use a shop insist they use OEM parts. When I dealt with them, I provided my own parts, mainly because it was easier for me to source since it was a diesel. But they seem reputable and all they do is work on engines.
Remember the saying, buy once, cry once.
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- #27
Thanks Nick -
Well the FSM says to measure the bolt shafts and as long as they're not necked down to re-use them, but lots of people seem to switch to the ARP studs as an upgrade... I'll check in with MJM tomorrow, but it seems that I would need to pull the engine and deliver it to them for rebuild. And if I'm pulling the engine, I'd be tempted to yank the tranny & transfer case at the same time and get it checked out, probably adding one of those nifty Australian valve bodies that Michael Hein sells....
If pulling the engine is the case for MJM I'll probably take my chances on a head gasket replacement only, along with the obvious 'while you're at it' items. But it does seem like the head should go to a shop for a cleanup/true-up and possible valve job...
From my reading on Mud, head gasket failures on these 1FZ-FE engines seem fairly common, although usually at higher mileage than the 165K this one is at; and combustion gas in the radiator seems pretty conclusive evidence of a gasket failure (perhaps due to warped head), aside from the possibility of a cracked head or block which seem exceedingly unlikely.
I have reached out to the previous owner, who's been pretty open and forthcoming in the past about the truck's history, to see if he knows of any past history or issues with the engine. He responded that he had no knowledge of any previous head gasket replacements or issues, though he did replace the radiator and water pump once, so perhaps there could have been an over-heating incident that perhaps could have warped the head and led to a gasket failure... He also referred me check out Performance Edge in San Marcos as another potential shop to do the work and that they had also done some work on this truck in the past.
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- #28
So the guy I bought my LC from recommended calling Stormy over at Performance Edge in San Marcos who's worked on the truck in the past, which I did. For a blown head gasket Stormy told me to call Doug Prout at Aloha Automotive in San Marcos (both shops have good Google & Yelp reviews and Doug used to work at Toyota Escondido). In speaking with Doug he seemed to know Land Cruisers fairly well and understood the job (especially the difficulty of removing the intake manifold side of things and the desire to hit all the 'while you're at it' tasks. Interestingly Doug mentioned that on a few occasions doing this job he encountered cracked 1FZ-FE heads, not just blown head gaskets and that locating a replacement head was very difficult. So he recommended sending the head to a shop for pressure testing and surfacing. He also mentioned that he happened to have a rebuilt head in his shop in case mine was indeed cracked... He's busy this week and suggested bringing the truck in next week.
Anyone with any experience with this shop?
Anyone with any experience with this shop?
Sounds like you found a good source. Bimetal engines like the 1FZE can blow headgaskets due to the 4X different in thermal expansion of aluminum vs. cast iron. Mine I believe is original at 257k but it only takes one heating event to fatigue the gasket. I had one of those 3.0 4runners, the temp got close to the red, and that was all it took.
The shop can check out main and con rod bearings but the odds are the bottom end if well maintained is good to 400k or more. It's a 7 bolt main so able to take a lot of stress.
When my engine goes I am also going to have the tranny gone through. My t-case was gone through by Valley Hybrids. But if figure at that point it's almost a new truck just with a lot of scratches.
Frank
The shop can check out main and con rod bearings but the odds are the bottom end if well maintained is good to 400k or more. It's a 7 bolt main so able to take a lot of stress.
When my engine goes I am also going to have the tranny gone through. My t-case was gone through by Valley Hybrids. But if figure at that point it's almost a new truck just with a lot of scratches.
Frank
- Thread starter
- #30
Well the the price at Aloha Automotive of $1850 or so for the labor alone seemed reasonable for the amount of work involved, so I let the shop have the job. I hope I don't regret that decision, but they seemed well experienced and familiar with the job. That said, I stopped by today to drop off some Gates green-strip heater hose and a batch of constant torque clamps; the mechanic/technician had the exhaust and intake manifolds removed, cams out and head unbolted. However, the exhaust cam did not have the 'service bolt' installed on its anti-backlash gear, the tech did realize it was supposed to be installed, but said the holes didn't line up... My guess is he tried to install the bolt after removing the intake cam... As well the cam timing chain gear was in his tool tray with the cams and not tie wrapped to the timing chain, which he'd dropped into the hole... I also noted that he'd chosen to leave the throttle body bolted to the intake manifold which probably made his job harder. I also asked whether he'd measured the head bolts to confirm they'd be fit for reuse as per the FSM; his response was he just reuses them and never checks them, but would do so if I insisted. So, the job is in their hands, but thus far I am less impressed than I'd hoped to be. So much for asking them if they intended to follow the procedure in the FSM. 
- Thread starter
- #31
So today whilst dropping off parts that had arrived over the weekend I measured those head bolts myself... The spec in the FSM calls for a minimum diameter of 10.6mm and every single one of them was well under that, around 10.1mm.... Just reuse them, 'because that's what we always do', as per the tech at the shop? Homey don't think so... New bolts it is, and at an MSRP of $27.50 per bolt - ouch. Thankfully, Shane at Toyota of Escondido was willing to match the $20.00 per bolt price quoted by Norm Reeves Toyota near San Diego saving me that drive; and considering no shipping fees it's about the same deal as buying them for $18.50 from some place on the east coast paying $25-30 for shipping and waiting a week or two for them. Next time though I'll plan farther ahead though and get them at Partsouq in UAE for less than $10 plus about $30 in shipping...
RET2
SILVER Star
Do I detect a business opportunity here?
- Thread starter
- #33
Become a US TLC parts importer! I have to imagine that some of the other shops like Wits End already do that. It would make complete sense for them to stock items that move and buy them at a better price offshore. As long as they're assured they're not getting duped in to purchasing Chinese knock-offs. I mean one can buy much less costly aftermarket head bolts like Beck-Arnley, Fel-Pro, etc, etc from any number of retailers, but when playing with these damn TTY bolts the material properties are critical to their working correctly. Perhaps Toyota controls that material quality better? Who knows?
A lot of folks talk about using non-TTY head "studs" in-lieu of the TTY bolts with the premise that they can be more accurately torqued since (allegedly) when torqueing them the stud remains static and you're torqueing only the stud nut over which you (allegedly) have better friction control... But stud users also talk of needing to re-torque after a few heat cycles as the gasket settles in... not a simple process on a 1FZ-FE engine. From my reading TTY bolts are used on these mixed metal engines (steel block/aluminum head) to stretch more in response to the dissimilar thermal expansion coefficients of the head and block... That said, it seems contradictory to me to install a bolt, deliberately stretch it to or beyond its yield point and expect it to then remain elastic after the fact to stretch and contract as the head and block expand and contract. Maybe the ME among us @elripster can explain that mystery of the world to us...
A lot of folks talk about using non-TTY head "studs" in-lieu of the TTY bolts with the premise that they can be more accurately torqued since (allegedly) when torqueing them the stud remains static and you're torqueing only the stud nut over which you (allegedly) have better friction control... But stud users also talk of needing to re-torque after a few heat cycles as the gasket settles in... not a simple process on a 1FZ-FE engine. From my reading TTY bolts are used on these mixed metal engines (steel block/aluminum head) to stretch more in response to the dissimilar thermal expansion coefficients of the head and block... That said, it seems contradictory to me to install a bolt, deliberately stretch it to or beyond its yield point and expect it to then remain elastic after the fact to stretch and contract as the head and block expand and contract. Maybe the ME among us @elripster can explain that mystery of the world to us...
TTY have been used in the aircraft industry for ages and have been used in higher end vehicles such as Mercedes which run higher compression and typically see more stress than their lower power and lower compression counterparts. There is a very good reason for using these TTY's. When you stretch the bolt beyond yield, you not only preload tension since there is still elasticity passed yield (just less), but you also strain harden the bolt making it less likely to stretch in the future. The spring constant of the bolt is now higher and the bolt is less likely to settle over time as heat continues to anneal the hardened fastener. And, as Bud correctly points out, some elasticity is especially key in mixed metal engines or even in all aluminum engines with steel fasteners. Aluminum's coefficient of thermal expansion is about 4X that of steel.
If it were me, I'd stick with the TTY's unless there is some strong data showing the stud and bolt method can hold a gasket more than the 25+ years these fasteners have been in service. Another thing to consider, just because one used a stud and bolt doesn't mean the stud didn't also stretch. One would have to torque them, remove, and measure to know. Maybe someone has done that? Not sure.
Frank
If it were me, I'd stick with the TTY's unless there is some strong data showing the stud and bolt method can hold a gasket more than the 25+ years these fasteners have been in service. Another thing to consider, just because one used a stud and bolt doesn't mean the stud didn't also stretch. One would have to torque them, remove, and measure to know. Maybe someone has done that? Not sure.
Frank
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- #35
From my strain-gaging days I recall aluminum CTE of about 13ppm/degF being double that of steel at about 6ppm/degF, or is there some other expansion going on?
I just realized we might be mixing units, or at least I am. Aluminum varies with alloy as does steel. Recalling way back when some of it was 21-24*10^-6mm/(m*degC). Also from way back when, cast iron used in engine blocks had a coeff in and around 5.8 (imperial units) but is about 10 in metric units (ratio of degF vs. degC). Note that different alloys change this quite a bit and 2X is common in alloys I googled as well. I also found that cylinder heads are 4042 which has at 15% less expansion than 6061 or 7075.
Frank
Frank
- Thread starter
- #37
Ok seems I failed to read where Mr T says to measure said head bolt diameters when concluding the bolts had been stretched (and therefore necked down) beyond the specified minimum diameter of 10.6mm... Some websites indicate that the location to measure a TTY bolt diameter is in the reduced shank region of the bolt between the threads and bolt head.
But noooo, not so for Mr T... nope, he says to measure the thread diameter itself about 1" up from the tip of the bolt... Although curiously this figure is not contained within my 1996 FSM...
Threaded Fasteners Torque-to-Yield and Torque-to-Angle - Engine Builder Magazine
All the original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) have fastener labs with lots of sophisticated equipment and well-educated people working on fastening issues. They even have their own professional association The Bolting Technology Council which holds meetings and seminars about fasteners...
www.enginebuildermag.com
So, once again while dropping off my newly acquired, very expensive head bolts, I remeasured the old bolts in accordance with Mr T's instructions this time... and they were all perfect and identical, and the same diameter as the brand new bolts. Arghh...
So, I'm the owner of a set of new head bolts that really weren't needed at all... Nevertheless, I told the shop to utilize the new bolts and washers since I'd paid for them. But if anyone comes up needing some head bolts, I'll have a batch sitting around that measure identically to new ones.
