Frozen Anti-freeze

[ntsqd]

Pure water is better than coolant for cooling. "Anti-Freeze" got re-labeled as "Coolant" so folks would buy more of it. Pure water has the problems of keeping the water pump seals alive, the obvious freezing in colder climes, and electrolysis. Used to be that you could buy "water pump lubricant", but I haven't seen it on the shelves of any of my LAPS in quite a while.

 

[cruiser_guy]

Pure water is better than coolant for cooling. "Anti-Freeze" got re-labeled as "Coolant" so folks would buy more of it. Pure water has the problems of keeping the water pump seals alive, the obvious freezing in colder climes, and electrolysis. Used to be that you could buy "water pump lubricant", but I haven't seen it on the shelves of any of my LAPS in quite a while.

I have seen enough evidence of running raw water in the radiator to know that my vehicles will NEVER have raw water!!

Have you seen steel that looks like it is all honeycombed due to corrosion?

If antifreeze has been re-labelled "coolant" then why does the bottle say "provides NO freeze protection" in small letters?

 

[Cruiserdrew]

What I remember from my poor college days is that you can run pure water for a few months in a pinch. then things start to go bad as the insides corrode and shed rust into the circulating water.

Always run at least 25% commercial coolant for the corrosion protection. It doesn't freeze much here where I live, but I run 50/50 because that doesn't take any brain power to mix.

I wonder what is in "coolant" if it doesn't provide freeze protection.

 

[Elbert]

Let me tell you a breif story about running pure water.... years ago I played GM mechanic before I went back to school. In the shop under warranty ( around 1992) comes in a V-8 firebird with a bad coolant leak. Open the radiator cap and it looks like mud / rusty water....see signs of leaks at the freeze plugs. Turns out the car had some kind of leak at one point and someone decided to just run pure water.... the freeze plugs were just about rusted all the way through, and a number of them were paper thin and leaking. I had to remove the trans and replace every freeze plug I could get to on the engine...then had to remove the radiator and have it cleaned... that's all the service manager would do. Of course the engine should have been pulled and every plug on the engine replaced, but I think it was doubtful if the car really had a warranty claim....anyway the point of the story is that if you want your engine to rust and rust bad...then run pure water. Anti-freeze and coolant are the same thing at least for automotive use...I've never seen anything different...summer or winter.

Do not run pure water in any water cooled engine....problems will only follow. You will have significant rust in the engine and your radiator will become a sludge pit.

Anti-freeze / coolant does a couple of things. It lubricates the water pump, it reduce corrosion, it lowers the point at which the mizture will freeze, and it raises the point at which the mixture will boil.

 

[ntsqd]

The crucial, and often missed or ignored key here is PURE water. You do not get that from any spigot. In all of the above examples, how many are KNOWN to have used distilled water? I'm betting on none. If it wasn't distilled water it had no hope of being pure.

As I noted above pure water doesn't address the corrosion inhibition needs or the necessary lubrication of the water pump seals. It is, without any competition, the best at transferring heat.

 

[Elbert]

I use distilled water on my vehicles when I think about. Sure its a given that most people are talking about tap water. I would not run any type of 100% "pure" water on any engine.

My preference at all times is 50/50 mix of coolant to distilled water, otherwise its tap water. If I were to drive up in Canada or Alaska in the winter I might want to run a higher percentage of "coolant".

 

[3_puppies]

Thanks, Mr MOMO, that's what I was thinking but couldn't type at 4 am before i left for work.

dude, water freezes at 0 celsius or 32 fahrenheit. jebus
if you roll out such statements, better check before.

H2O does not freeze at 32F or 0C. a few years ago, when I made snow for a living, our Snowmax rep, Snowmax is a high tempeture nucleator, which means it raises the freezing point of water 2-3 degreesF good guy from SLC area, had a freeze plate that slowly dropped the temp from room temp to 20F
Placing 10 drops of the water we used for snowmaking on the plate, and 10 drops of water with snowmax added on the plate. We watched the temp drop and at aprox 25.6F the snowmax drops froze, at aprox 23.4F the plain drops of water froze. Without seeing this experiment, I wouldn't have beleived it, but have seen it at other ski areas with similar results, within 1 degree of other tests.

When we did use Snowmax in the water it definatly helped production.

Jon Vander Arc- The other question is how did you know your truck was frozen solid??

 

[cruiser_guy]

I wonder what is in "coolant" if it doesn't provide freeze protection.

I wouldn't know. All I can say is that when I had "coolant" from Central America in my truck and was going to spend winter in Canada a few years ago I changed out BEFORE it got cold. I was not taking any chances.

The bottles do say "Does not provide freeze protection". Maybe they are just diluted water pump lubricant and a wetting agent or something.

 

[MrMoMo]

Yes, WATER does freeze when WATER is at 32°F/0°C. (NOT THE SURROUNDING AIR) If it is sitting on a plate, or in a jug, or touching anything else, the mass of what is in contact with must also be at or below freezing. When water is in a puddle, and dropping the air temperature to freezing and saying the water has not turned to ice is not accurate. The water is not the same temperature as the air, because the ground is warmer. Same goes for putting something in the freezer... the water, and anything that is containing it, or touching it must be given a chance to reach the freezing point, before the water will freeze. If it takes 2 hours for a plate of steel to cool from 50°F to 32°F, the water will be drawing heat from the plate, until the plate reaches freezing - at which point, the water will turn to ice... I can put a 5 gallon jug of water outside when it is -40°C, come back in 1/2 hour and say - hey - water doesn't freeze at -40°C because this isn't frozen. Of course, I could put a 5 gallon pail of boiling water outside, but I didn't mention that part... it's all relative people. Anyone who lives near a lake will understand this. Overnight temps can dip well below freezing without the lake freezing over - because the WATER temperature has not yet reached freezing.

The REAL question is...

If there is a plane on a conveyor belt, and the plane has a sealed jug 1/2 full of water in it, and the conveyor can match the forward speed of the airplane exactly, but in the opposite direction, and the air temperature outside the plane is -55°F.... at what altitude will the jug freeze due to the wind chill if the plane can take off? (now we'll see who is paying attention)

 

[D'Animal]

You are going to be extremely lucky if you have no damage. Drain all the crap that's in the engine now..out, including draining the block and radiator completely.

The block drain is on the driverside of the engine low on the block between the EGR cooler and the bellhousing. You exhasut down pipe will be in the way. I think it is a 17mm wrench that gets it loose and out.


Don't forget to completely burp the system when refilling. You will have your colored watery stuff in the lines going to both the heaters so take that into account when mixing the anit-freeze.

 

[ntsqd]

Don't forget the Latent Heat of Fusion. It is not only possible, but common to have 32*f ice and 32*f water. Water doesn't turn to ice the instant it reaches 32*f. There is a well known amount of energy (80cal/gm) that has to be removed from the 32*f water before it will turn to ice. Or added to ice for it to turn to liquid.

If during the time it takes for that to happen the ambient temp were to drop below 32*f one might falsely conclude the water freezes at a lower temperature than 32*f. Only the ambient temperature changed during that time, the water's temperature did not.
This has been well worked out many, many years ago. The phase vs. energy/temperature curve of water is well known and is pretty much a scientific law.

From: Phase Changes

 

[Mace]

We obviously need another argumetn in phase diagrams..

Water freezes and melts at 32* f (0*c)

That melting point/freezing point can be altered by changes in Pressure and temp.

It takes quite a bit of "salt" or pressure to drop the melting point of ice significantly.



How do you know that the water in your block was frozen?

 

[Mace]

lol
Both our graphs came out crappy..

 

[D'Animal]

Forget the graphs, the real funny thing is that he has been driving his rig since post #33.

 

[Mace]

I still wantt o know how he knew that the block was frozen..

 

[D'Animal]

He stated that the top radiator hose was frozen solid and the ice was pressing through it. I think at that point it was an assumption that it was also frozen in the block.

I still want to know how he knew that the block was frozen..

 

[Jon Vander Ark]

Haha Sorry guys, I never thought this thread would turn into a hot topic! Everything has been running smoothly, and the snow keeps on coming!

As for how I 'knew' the block was frozen. I didn't. I assumed.

I started up the engine and there was a belt whining, which I never have had a problem with. I turned it off immediately, opened the hood and noticed a slushy icicle hanging from the top radiator hose.

I felt the hose, it was fairly solid.

I felt the bottom hose, it felt the same.

I guessed that the belt was whining in protest of the water pump being seized up as well and didn't chance anything after that.

It is very possible the block wasn't frozen through, especially considering there doesn't appear to be any damage (from driving it rough yesterday and no leaks). So maybe I was wrong, and it was a doomsday assumption, but I sure as hell was worried!

And of course, am thankful for the input -- even if the two graphs that were recently posted turned out crappy

 

[3_puppies]

Yes, WATER does freeze when WATER is at 32°F/0°C. (NOT THE SURROUNDING AIR) If it is sitting on a plate, or in a jug, or touching anything else, the mass of what is in contact with must also be at or below freezing. When water is in a puddle, and dropping the air temperature to freezing and saying the water has not turned to ice is not accurate. The water is not the same temperature as the air, because the ground is warmer. Same goes for putting something in the freezer... the water, and anything that is containing it, or touching it must be given a chance to reach the freezing point, before the water will freeze. If it takes 2 hours for a plate of steel to cool from 50°F to 32°F, the water will be drawing heat from the plate, until the plate reaches freezing - at which point, the water will turn to ice... I can put a 5 gallon jug of water outside when it is -40°C, come back in 1/2 hour and say - hey - water doesn't freeze at -40°C because this isn't frozen. Of course, I could put a 5 gallon pail of boiling water outside, but I didn't mention that part... it's all relative people. Anyone who lives near a lake will understand this. Overnight temps can dip well below freezing without the lake freezing over - because the WATER temperature has not yet reached freezing.

The REAL question is...

If there is a plane on a conveyor belt, and the plane has a sealed jug 1/2 full of water in it, and the conveyor can match the forward speed of the airplane exactly, but in the opposite direction, and the air temperature outside the plane is -55°F.... at what altitude will the jug freeze due to the wind chill if the plane can take off? (now we'll see who is paying attention)

I thouht boiling water froze faster than tap water, I remember doing the math in high school.
something along the lines of tap water is trying to gain temp, that you need to reverse the cycle which takes longer then boiling water which once off the burner is already trying to get rid of heat.

didn't myth busters do a thing on a plane taking off on a conveyor, an it actually can take off? again I think windchill doesn't affect freezing of water

 

[Jon Vander Ark]

If there is a plane on a conveyor belt, and the plane has a sealed jug 1/2 full of water in it, and the conveyor can match the forward speed of the airplane exactly, but in the opposite direction, and the air temperature outside the plane is -55°F.... at what altitude will the jug freeze due to the wind chill if the plane can take off? (now we'll see who is paying attention)

Unless the crew enjoys temperatures below freezing, the water will never freeze.

 

[ntsqd]

I thouht boiling water froze faster than tap water, I remember doing the math in high school.
something along the lines of tap water is trying to gain temp, that you need to reverse the cycle which takes longer then boiling water which once off the burner is already trying to get rid of heat.

didn't myth busters do a thing on a plane taking off on a conveyor, an it actually can take off? again I think windchill doesn't affect freezing of water

The more radical the temperature difference, the more radical the reaction.
Cold water poured into a cup of R12 just freezes into cool looking ice. Boiling hot water poured into a cup of R12 blow up the cup and vaporizes the water.