Front control arm flip

[jodo]

You guys are talking about some of my "Bugs" I'm chasing right now. Squerly on the highway.
first thing I considered when using a radius arm is during articulation the axel housing will be "rung" like you would a wet dish towel. The further the upper mounts are from the lowers the more binding. I used the same mounting seperation as the JK (7" or 8" I think). I used the new ourglass rubber bushings at first but they allowed way to much movement. I ended up using the OE XJ rubber inserts and rings for all three points on each arm as well as the rear arms. Way better! And yes fully adjustable upper arms for correct caster placment.
A freind of a friend used himes on all points of his radius arms and continully broke mounting brakets. Some flex has to be there.
Also some binding is good for stability. I didn't go into this project thinking that but now is different.
At all 6 points of connection to the frame I used Rubicons super flex ball joint (greesable, rebuildable, adjustable).
I'm running front and rear sway bars and its not quite perfect but close. I want it perfect! Perfect in my mind is to have my wife drive it and NOT say "WTH?"
I found out recently that I was charging/adjusting my coilovers wrong. My pressure range is from 150-250 and I was charing while the truck had static load. Doh! Not getting the damping I need to keep the truck from leaning so badly.
My caster is set at 5 1/2 degrees right now. Looking forward to getting home this weekend and pressure up!

Jodo

 

[Ebag333]

Tools, it is interesting that your rig leans a lot by losing one forward mount. Is that really just road bushing restriction in the stock design or is it now a geometry issue?

I don't know what Tools did/experiences exactly, but I can say that I am not comfortable with my rig if I have my poor man's 3 Link setup, and the hitch pin is not locked on place (on the road that is).

I left it out when I was at the 45 Run as it was just a "quick" run to Tahoe and back (about 30 mins each way). I pulled over and put it in after going up over a bit of a hill and having the suspension unload, and then coming down and having it go squirrelly on me.

That's only with a 2" lift in front, and I wasn't aired down much at all.

That's obviously different than what Tools has setup, but on road driveability is a huge concern for me as my truck is my DD. That's part of my interest in something like an X Link, as from what I've read folks have said that it drives as well as stock on road.

 

[Nay]

You guys are talking about some of my "Bugs" I'm chasing right now. Squerly on the highway.
first thing I considered when using a radius arm is during articulation the axel housing will be "rung" like you would a wet dish towel. The further the upper mounts are from the lowers the more binding. I used the same mounting seperation as the JK (7" or 8" I think). I used the new ourglass rubber bushings at first but they allowed way to much movement. I ended up using the OE XJ rubber inserts and rings for all three points on each arm as well as the rear arms. Way better! And yes fully adjustable upper arms for correct caster placment.
A freind of a friend used himes on all points of his radius arms and continully broke mounting brakets. Some flex has to be there.
Also some binding is good for stability. I didn't go into this project thinking that but now is different.
At all 6 points of connection to the frame I used Rubicons super flex ball joint (greesable, rebuildable, adjustable).
I'm running front and rear sway bars and its not quite perfect but close. I want it perfect! Perfect in my mind is to have my wife drive it and NOT say "WTH?"
I found out recently that I was charging/adjusting my coilovers wrong. My pressure range is from 150-250 and I was charing while the truck had static load. Doh! Not getting the damping I need to keep the truck from leaning so badly.
My caster is set at 5 1/2 degrees right now. Looking forward to getting home this weekend and pressure up!

Jodo

Your friend used a fixed spherical joint on a four link mount y-radius arm? Ouch. You have to have bushing deflection with any four link setup. Not so on a 3 link, so you want that bushing deflection gone as it adds slop.

Not sure what you mean above where you say you used XJ bushings and RE johnny joints - there are only four connection points on each arm, curious where you used rubber and where you used the johnny joints.

Get rid of some caster, that's too much for a lifted 80. Shoot for 2* and see what happens, although of course damping is important.

Keep us posted on this build

 

[Dusty]

I used the new ourglass rubber bushings at first but they allowed way to much movement. I ended up using the OE XJ rubber inserts and rings for all three points on each arm as well as the rear arms. Way better! ....Some flex has to be there.
Also some binding is good for stability. I didn't go into this project thinking that but now is different.
Jodo

im using the "hourglass" bushings on mine (the large rubicon express bushes) for my rear radius arm. and yeah they flex. i can flex the rear a full 8-10" by hand if the axle is allowed to hang in space with no springs. the oe jeep rubbers are great too. as we speak my dad and me are building a custom long arm suspension for one of his jeeps and are using oe jeep rubbers for much of it-perfect combo of flex and durability. the same can be said of the of 80 series rubbers=only they are even better (but $$$)

I don't know what Tools did/experiences exactly, but I can say that I am not comfortable with my rig if I have my poor man's 3 Link setup, and the hitch pin is not locked on place (on the road that is).

I left it out when I was at the 45 Run as it was just a "quick" run to Tahoe and back (about 30 mins each way). I pulled over and put it in after going up over a bit of a hill and having the suspension unload, and then coming down and having it go squirrelly on me.

That's only with a 2" lift in front, and I wasn't aired down much at all.

That's obviously different than what Tools has setup, but on road driveability is a huge concern for me as my truck is my DD. That's part of my interest in something like an X Link, as from what I've read folks have said that it drives as well as stock on road.

i too tried the hitch pin mod. i ran it for 10 minutes and put the bolt back in. it flexed great but the noise it made was anoying

 

[jodo]

NAY,

I'm using factory XJ rubber control arm bushings at the "y" connections at the axel and a large Jonny at the frame pivot. It was alot worse at 3 1/2 degrees caster. A greater degree slow'd the steering down considerably. I might be able to back the caster off after I tighten up the coilovers.

Dusty,

your Dads rigs sounds cool

 

[Ebag333]

i too tried the hitch pin mod. i ran it for 10 minutes and put the bolt back in. it flexed great but the noise it made was anoying

The key is finding a hitch pin that fits very tight. Mine fits tight enough that it can be difficult to get back in if you're not on pavement. (Diameter wise, it's too long length wise, but that's not as big a deal.)

The only noise I hear from it is occasionally it'll kinda bind up a bit, then I hear a pop when it releases.

 

[-Spike-]

My pin used to fit tight, now not so much. I think it's important to remove it for any trail riding. I have gotten lazy sometimes or forgotten it entirely. That's when the 'too long' problems start- since there's nothing to keep the bracket tight to the bushing center, the pin wobbles around and eggs out the holes.

 

[bpassmore]

You guys are sick. Really. go see a doctor.

 

[Ebag333]

So not to start this all over again, but was e-mailing back and forth with a guy (Crankycruiser) who has done both the flip arm mod as well as the X Link.

He answered some of my questions, and I figured probably some others had the same ones as well.

In regards to the flip arm mod:

There shouldnt be any interferance issues except ur sway bar wont fit back in unless u mod it to fit, u can do a flip arm on anything above 2" lift. but at this low the radius arm will hit the bump stop at full flex (which isnt a bad thing i guess!)

He also linked me to some pics, which were very useful to me.

the Xlink was pretty easy to build.. i just built mine of pics of the dobbins ones.. obviously its not as fancy, but seems to do the job pretty well.

I'll send u the link to my photo bucket album, I have jsut removed the front from my cruiser while im cutting it into a ute, anyways i got some pics of how its set up.

Keep in mind mine is flim armed too.. which in my opinion seems to make it work even better.

Heres one album.ute chop pictures by Crankycruiser93 - Photobucket

If u look thru my buildup on 4wdaction there is also how i did it in there. Cranky,, The transformation begins! PICS PG85 - Page 49 - Australian 4WD Action Online Forums - the 4WD, 4x4 and offroad truck community. Get the latest tips, news, reviews, images and video clips. I have changed a few things since those early photos, mainly bracing and a different centre bush. but it is basically the same.

For the center bushing on his X Link he used a product called Oilon. I found this link to it. Anyone heard of it here in the states, or know of something similar?

Seems like the perfect material for the application.

 

[jodo]

Holy crap! That was two hours of my life that will never be seen again! The "X-Link" seems like a good idea but never read a spot on how it drove at 75 MPH. Maybe a tappered roller bearing would be better for the center pivot. No need for more rubber. We can all make something flex like mad but can it drive good too???
Thats a very important objective to me.

Bitchin stuff

Jodo

 

[Ebag333]

Holy crap! That was two hours of my life that will never be seen again! The "X-Link" seems like a good idea but never read a spot on how it drove at 75 MPH. Maybe a tappered roller bearing would be better for the center pivot. No need for more rubber. We can all make something flex like mad but can it drive good too???
Thats a very important objective to me.

Bitchin stuff

Jodo

According to the guy who has it, without it pinned in place it's roughly like driving without a front swaybar. Drivable, but lots of body roll.

He ended up modding it so that he could pin both sides, which basically locks his "cranky link" into place and it becomes no different than having fixed mounting brackets. It essentially drives and handles as you would expect a truck that's lifted to handle.

It's not exactly apples to apples here, because he has all sorts of mods going on (high steer, relocated some of the bits up there, etc).

It's somewhat similar to our poor man three link (hitch pin) mod. Without the hitch pin in, the truck will handle quite squirrelly at speed (at least in my experience), while with it in it handles just fine. Think if you had a way of pulling both front pins, and controlling how far it could pivot (so your axle doesn't roll underneath you). It'd obviously give you a lot more flex, while you could pin it back into place for on highway driving and have essentially normal drive ability.

One thing that did catch my attention is on the rear lower control arms, he fabbed up a mounting bracket that raised the axle mounting point by about 3"-4" or so (frame side stayed the same). He found that the flatter angle of the rear control arms actually improved handling on the road quite a bit. I imagine that flipping the front control arms would have a similar effect, though you aren't moving the mounts as much.

 

[LC80Ducati996]

Jodo

Nice work there!

I like the high steer setup and the shock mount you built looks nice!

Still thinking of running a 3 or four link up front on mine but I am sure having 16" of coil over travel rocks on your truck.

 

[jodo]

It's not exactly apples to apples here, because he has all sorts of mods going on (high steer, relocated some of the bits up there, etc).

I Couldn't see his the high steer very well. My next move is to make a passeger side high steer arm. Part of making our rigs handle well is to keep the drag link flat as possable. The higher angle the drag link causes unwanted steer as the truck leans into a corner.

It's somewhat similar to our poor man three link (hitch pin) mod. Without the hitch pin in, the truck will handle quite squirrelly at speed (at least in my experience), while with it in it handles just fine. Think if you had a way of pulling both front pins, and controlling how far it could pivot (so your axle doesn't roll underneath you). It'd obviously give you a lot more flex, while you could pin it back into place for on highway driving and have essentially normal drive ability.

I agree with what your saying. A HD detachable sway bar would be a good start.

One thing that did catch my attention is on the rear lower control arms, he fabbed up a mounting bracket that raised the axle mounting point by about 3"-4" or so (frame side stayed the same). He found that the flatter angle of the rear control arms actually improved handling on the road quite a bit. I imagine that flipping the front control arms would have a similar effect, though you aren't moving the mounts as much.

I agree again. As the truck leans, axel steer. Control the truck's ability to lean on the street.

Jodo

Nice work there!

I like the high steer setup and the shock mount you built looks nice!

Still thinking of running a 3 or four link up front on mine but I am sure having 16" of coil over travel rocks on your truck.


Thanks, I'm almost there untill all the bugs are worked out.

Jodo

 

[Ebag333]

Need to work on your quote splitting skills there.

I agree with what your saying. A HD detachable sway bar would be a good start.

From what I understand doing a rear detachable sway bar is easy. The rear is decently protected by the axle though. It's the front that's harder, and it's the one that needs to be done.

I agree again. As the truck leans, axel steer. Control the truck's ability to lean on the street.

I guess that'd be another reason to flip the front control arms, less axle steer.

 

[alkaline747trio]

Front d/c'd sway is much easier than the front. Axle mounted sways aren't good because you can't just let it dangle, and how would you tie it to something without is breaking out of them? Front just takes a pin instead of a bolt...easy.

 

[Nay]

I guess that'd be another reason to flip the front control arms, less axle steer.

Some angle to the front arms helps with steering on a lift. As you lean to the outside around a corner, the axle will move forward just slightly. This movement is consistent with the direction you are turning and doesn't have a detrimental effect.

Improving the angles on rear links is not about axle steer - it is about suspension geometry, particularly if you raise the panhard mount.

 

[jodo]

My "Quote splitting skills" SUCK! Like they say. "Practice make perfect".

Jodo

 

[LC80Ducati996]

Improving the angles on rear links is not about axle steer - it is about suspension geometry, particularly if you raise the panhard mount.

Doing a triangulated 4 link is the ultimate way.

I am out in the high desert in CA this week. Seeing what some of the jeep guys can do with what they have built is amazing. Big air on a solid front axle. So some ideas will be adapted from what I have seen.

We can all make something flex like mad but can it drive good too???

What I am trying to do..

 

[jodo]

My next project will be to replace the mid mounted fuel tank with a rear mounted tank so I can build a proper trigulated link system.

jodo

 

[LC80Ducati996]

From what I understand doing a rear detachable sway bar is easy. The rear is decently protected by the axle though. It's the front that's harder, and it's the one that needs to be done.

Part Two

Check this guys write up

electric disconnect.


Pretty cool..

Thinking of going to this other style of swaybar and add a pnumatic disconnect system.