Fossil Springs Cleanup Sept 15, 2007

[Brian Macgyver]

On another subject entirely, Steve Wallace, the guy with the Montero on the clean-up, mentioned something worth considering. While most club members were highly instrumental in effecting a desperately needed rescue and in helping the families of those injured at Fossil Creek, members of Toyota's Trail Team went well above the call. They are not employed to save fools from themselves so that they may have another chance. That is not their job. They also are not the kind of people who will toot their own horns. As a club we should recognize them to Toyota for the lifesaving efforts of that night. They deserve to have recognition for their efforts. With our help, they literally saved lives that night! They deserve to have us as a club commend them in writing for the extra effort, and for the saving of lives. We should send a letter to their boss! It is the right thing to do.

 

[Brian Macgyver]

Um, ATVs and stuff do require license plates here in AZ.

You have to have a tiny RV plate if you never drive it on the roads. If you do make it street legal, it gets a MC (motorcycle) plate.

If the rig doesn't have any plate...its being operated illegally - no registration, and may be stolen?

Last that I checked, unlicensed vehicles in Az are identified by the VIN on the frame and the title of ownership for theft purposes only. There is no requirement to have a plate that can be identified by a passer-by. They need to have a visible number that can be written down by anyone who disputes the way that they are used. Therein lies the need for a different color plate to be used on any non-road-legal vehicle that is to be used in public places.
You may be confused by the large number of Quads in Prescott Valley that are street legal and have motorcycle plates. But those that are not street certified and are only used off-road have no plate at all. That is the way that the law exists at this time. It needs to change. Those that are not street legal need to have a forest service plate for use in public areas.

 

[GeoRoss]

Good job guys! You did us all proud.


As to personal responsibility, I agree but as Rob pointed out it is easy to be tough sitting on the couch. When you come up on this sort of tragedy in real life alot you still have to deal with it.

This is kinda along the lines of those kids in Kingman, one dead the other injured who drove into an old mine shaft. A terrible tragedy, but what do you want to bet they were tearing across the open desert? I have yet to find a shaft in the middle of an established through-going trail.

 

[BMAN]

On another subject entirely, Steve Wallace, the guy with the Montero on the clean-up, mentioned something worth considering. While most club members were highly instrumental in effecting a desperately needed rescue and in helping the families of those injured at Fossil Creek, members of Toyota's Trail Team went well above the call. They are not employed to save fools from themselves so that they may have another chance. That is not their job. They also are not the kind of people who will toot their own horns. As a club we should recognize them to Toyota for the lifesaving efforts of that night. They deserve to have recognition for their efforts. With our help, they literally saved lives that night! They deserve to have us as a club commend them in writing for the extra effort, and for the saving of lives. We should send a letter to their boss! It is the right thing to do.

DONE! GREAT IDEA BRIAN!

Ona a side note. I went through all of my gear and unfortunately did not end up with that 3/8 Quickie Tie Down you were looking for.

 

[BrotherRob]

Brother Rob has some ideas that have merit. (Mostly relayed to me by phone.) They have to do with strict DUI enforcement in the forest. Unfortunately, they probably can't be implemented. But how about this one? We might re-introduce the old copper-colored AZ license plate from the '70s. Require it on all unlicensed vehicles that operate on public lands. Then we could at least report fools, idiots and drunks, not to mention litterbugs! They seem to think that because the vehicle is not licensed, the rules of common sense are suspended. They are wrong!
A second idea could be public service announcements by the Forest Service on radio and TV. They should let people know that while the enforcement by an officer may be relaxed, you may very well be arrested for DUI on even the remotest trails. Operating an unlicensed vehicle anywhere while flaming drunk is not acceptable!
There are many other forest rules that have been forgotten. The 2wd has right-of-way over the 4wd. The climbing vehicle has right-of-way over the decending one. There were once universal hand signals to alert oncoming traffic to others in a group following the leader so that they know to look for other traffic and how many. Such things used to be published in newspapers. Nobody seems to know these things anymore.
I hold up a hand and then some fingers to oncoming traffic and they look at me like I am flashing gang signs. They are clueless until they hit the truck behind me. Then they cry that the fenders are bent! I am trying to warn them and they do not know the signs. It is simple; a fist with the thumb pointing back says "Behind me". Two fingers up says "Two more trucks." (or bikes) A strong nod, thumb up, or thumb and forefinger OK sign recognizes the warning. It is not that hard!
We should clean up, we should bring our own firewood if available. We do not cut down trees. We don't modify the terrain.
When I was growing up here, everyone knew this stuff.
These things need to be publicized!

The registration idea has been floated many times and I have mixed feelings. More red tape, BS and $'s and if we cannot enforce the rules we have now, what hope do additional regulations have? It would make it easier to identify the owners of the vehicles but not the drivers/riders. It would also be difficult to prove that a violation occurred.
IMO there are a great many people who do not believe that drinking and driving a motor vehicle offroad is illegal. I believe if that point was made, loud and clear, that many would clean up their acts voluntarily. As a consequence, other behaviors would improve as well.
It should be handled the same way as boating a few years ago. A public information campaign followed by just enough enforcement to give it teeth.
Under no circumstances do I want to see a ranger/sheriff or whatever on every road. That will spoil the fun for everyone. Heavy handed enforcement only causes people to rebel. Education is far more effective. Giving people good reasons to act in a reasonable and responsible manner will have a longer lasting effect.

 

[desertgirl66]

I was at the Red Rock Ranger Station today, picking up my wood cutting permit and ran into Kat (Cat?) who helped us witht he Fossil Springs clean up. she wanted to send out a BIG thank you to everyone whol helped with the massive clean up there. She was very impressed with our professionalism. So, once again everyone---Great Job!!

Kristina

 

[CodyRx7]

You may be confused by the large number of Quads in Prescott Valley that are street legal and have motorcycle plates. But those that are not street certified and are only used off-road have no plate at all. That is the way that the law exists at this time. It needs to change. Those that are not street legal need to have a forest service plate for use in public areas.

I used to have an 05 KFX400 sport quad and did a lot of research since I was making my quad street legal. I was also a member of RidingArizona - which is like a CSC forum for ATVs/Bikes out here.

When you register the bike/ATV you are assigned the RV plate to mount on the rig and are still told to carry your registration papers on you of the rig as well. Unplated rigs were being ticketed on some FS roads. Apparently AZ has a huge ATV/dirtbike theft problem and people without their plates mounted were hassled and fined heavily since unplated rigs were suspected as stolen.

To make an ATV street legal, you simply need a regular car driver's license (as it has 4 wheels), a license plate, really inexpensive insurance, a headlight, taillight, 1 rear view mirrow, and a horn.

 

[BrotherRob]

Good job guys! You did us all proud.


As to personal responsibility, I agree but as Rob pointed out it is easy to be tough sitting on the couch. When you come up on this sort of tragedy in real life alot you still have to deal with it.

This is kinda along the lines of those kids in Kingman, one dead the other injured who drove into an old mine shaft. A terrible tragedy, but what do you want to bet they were tearing across the open desert? I have yet to find a shaft in the middle of an established through-going trail.

Com'on Ross, there are ATV trails leading up to every vertical mine shaft.

 

[Brian Macgyver]

On several notes; BMAN, the Quickie thing was mostly to teach my daughter the importance of keeping track of things that are entrusted to her. Lesson learned. If you or anyone else should find it, use it well and enjoy it. I have plenty of them.
Cody was right up to a point on the tag thing for off-road vehicles, including Quads. I talked to a Forest ranger about this. They have a visible tag that is required for any unlicensed vehicle operated in the forest. Enforcement is the problem. Most people are not aware that a plate is necessary, and those who are a problem scurry away before they can be told, or ticketed. Public service anouncements are needed to let the public know what is the right way, and maybe we need to get some quads for the forest service so that they can follow the offenders. They can't chase a quad with a full-size truck. The bottom line is that we need a visible tag so that we can report fools, drunks and litterbugs.

 

[CodyRx7]

I vote - Vigilante Justice!

 

[Brian Macgyver]

Com'on Ross, there are ATV trails leading up to every vertical mine shaft.

Yes, there are trails to every mine. That is the nature of mines. Each one has a road leading to it. If you cannot see a hole big enough to swallow you up, you are going too fast for the terrain, you think you are immortal, or you are blind drunk! There are few situations that provide any excuse for such stupidity.
It has been said that stupidity kills someone every day. Anyone who survives such an episode is just lucky that it was not his day! We hope that he learns from the experience, but the hope is thin at best. Fools mostly don't learn easily. A beer or two rarely makes a smart man stupid, or a fool smart. A 12-pack can make a man dead. We deal in terrain that usually makes smart people smarter, and fools and drunks dead or injured! That is the way it is.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

the dirt tracks down and into cave creek are 2wd, a little bumpy and very sceninc,,, you have to cross the verde at childs. i have only been able to cross 3 times over the pass 20 odd years. every time i go up there i put the pig in the water to check and all but those 3 times i hit a deep channel that just about covers my headlights so i back out. it would be a knee deep crossing if that channel wasnt there. and before anybody says it (spike) i have tied. problem is for some reason my pig starts to float when i get up near the door handles (4FT'ish) and i just have to sit there and let the water come in to weight me down to keep driving.

A couple of guys on dualsport motorcycles crossed it a couple of weeks ago.
http://members.cox.net/jschooley/Verde_Crossing_vid.AVI

 

[RHINO]

i know camera can be decieving but that looks quite a bit wider than it used to be. i'll have to go check it out, looks different to me. would the forest service had repaired it for some reason?

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

i know camera can be decieving but that looks quite a bit wider than it used to be. i'll have to go check it out, looks different to me. would the forest service had repaired it for some reason?

I agree it does not look the same as in the past. It has never been that low when I crossed it. Im going up to the falls in the next hour I wil try to stop by and give a look.

 

[Brian Macgyver]

I am getting back to the rescue. This is the third time that my now 6 year old daughter has been involved in rescues off-road, and this was the most serious to date for her. She is learning the ropes. I have been trying to teach her that when people are in trouble, it can be her place to make the children welcome while the adults work out the real problems. She is good at it as long as the kids are close to her age. That night, she had the stranded kids roasting marshmallows in our camp while the rest of you worked out logistics with the adults. She played with them and their dog, made s'mores, and entertained them. I am as proud of her as I am of the rest of the club! She was a trooper, and she is just a kid! I hope that I can be that good when I grow up!

 

[Brian Macgyver]

BTW, Hauling in a load of firewood and taking out a load of litter worked out very well with my trailer. Whenever the club meets in west-central AZ, let me know. I will do it again. I have a great amount of firewood and a big dumpster. I can do that at any time.

 

[Brian Macgyver]

Bro Rob made a point midway in this thread that I overlooked. He said that everybody's role in the rescue was perfect. He was right. Everybody involved took a role almost as if by instinct. Trucks, lights, blankets, towels, bottles of water, cel phones, CB radios and everything else appeared out of nowhere as if by magic. Everything needed was at hand on demand at a moment's notice. This club was impressive that night! It was as if we had rehearsed the event and the rescue. It was nearly perfect!