Flex Fuel Converson?
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What's flexible about a fuel with approximately one station in each major city, that costs more and has less fuel energy per gallon ?
Good link on a 100 series propane conversion.
"Flexible fuel" is an auto industry scam. They make minor changes to the vehicle allowing it to run on a scarcely available fuel that makes little economic sense. They know that almost none of their customers will ever fuel them with E85. In exchange they get tax credits for each vehicle and get to ignore that vehicle for fleet fuel efficiency standards (suprising how most of the "Flex fuel" vehciles end up being large SUVs
).
I really don't object to the automakers gaming the system. What can we expect? But to try and pretend that they are being responsible coporate citizens and run PR campaigns about the benefits of "Flex Fuel" vehicles goes way too far. But that is how Ford and GM operate. Too bad they aren't putting as much muscle behind really innovative programs like Toyota has for the hybrids. Hybrid tech is overblown but at least it's not just vaporware.
Good link on a 100 series propane conversion.
"Flexible fuel" is an auto industry scam. They make minor changes to the vehicle allowing it to run on a scarcely available fuel that makes little economic sense. They know that almost none of their customers will ever fuel them with E85. In exchange they get tax credits for each vehicle and get to ignore that vehicle for fleet fuel efficiency standards (suprising how most of the "Flex fuel" vehciles end up being large SUVs
). I really don't object to the automakers gaming the system. What can we expect? But to try and pretend that they are being responsible coporate citizens and run PR campaigns about the benefits of "Flex Fuel" vehicles goes way too far. But that is how Ford and GM operate. Too bad they aren't putting as much muscle behind really innovative programs like Toyota has for the hybrids. Hybrid tech is overblown but at least it's not just vaporware.
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An "auto industry scam"? Are you on crack (not even the good stuff, the s*** that has been cut a thousand times)? Brazil is almost entirely energy independent as a direct use of Flex Fuel / ethanol cars. The notion that the US could actually be sending its dollars to American farmers who produce ethanol yielding crops is not a scam. You can drone on about the dream of hybrid technology or better yet, just do what the current Administration does: sell us on the idea that Hydrogen will eventually solve the worlds energy problems (ya, in 75 years when the last combustible engine is shut off). As a consequence, we will continue to subsidize dictatorial regimes in the Middle East and be held captive to OPEC and Exxon et al.
The upside to Flex Fuel is that right NOW most cars can be converted. It is not a pie in the sky idea that will take a generation to implement and as a consequence continue to fund big oil. Other energy conversions like propane and biodiesel require extremely costly and impracticable modifications to gasoline engines. We can use the current gasoline delivery infrastructure (ie: preexisting pipelines, tanker trucks and gas pumps and tanks) to use E85 fuel.
I live in the South/Mid West where people are actually excited about the idea of ethanol, and yes, we actually have gas stations where it can be purchased due to my State taking a proactive role in energy independence. Toyota will jump on the bandwagon, it's Toyota, they don't miss much.
I appreciate your response, but I simply want to know if there are mechanical issues to a Flex Fuel conversion for my Cruiser. I got a biased response so the aforementioned rant is my biased response in kind.
If anyone knows about the mechanical aspects of a conversion I would appreciate any advice.
Thanks for the awesome forum!
The upside to Flex Fuel is that right NOW most cars can be converted. It is not a pie in the sky idea that will take a generation to implement and as a consequence continue to fund big oil. Other energy conversions like propane and biodiesel require extremely costly and impracticable modifications to gasoline engines. We can use the current gasoline delivery infrastructure (ie: preexisting pipelines, tanker trucks and gas pumps and tanks) to use E85 fuel.
I live in the South/Mid West where people are actually excited about the idea of ethanol, and yes, we actually have gas stations where it can be purchased due to my State taking a proactive role in energy independence. Toyota will jump on the bandwagon, it's Toyota, they don't miss much.
I appreciate your response, but I simply want to know if there are mechanical issues to a Flex Fuel conversion for my Cruiser. I got a biased response so the aforementioned rant is my biased response in kind.
If anyone knows about the mechanical aspects of a conversion I would appreciate any advice.
Thanks for the awesome forum!
Good points NMuzj100.
At first glance E85 "sounds" good, but after some reaserch it's not looking so hot.
For more info on Ethanol their is a great article in the October issue of Consumer Reports. They basically debunk the whole ethenol flexfuel issue.
The article name is "The Ethanol Myth" Kinda says it all right there.
At first glance E85 "sounds" good, but after some reaserch it's not looking so hot.
For more info on Ethanol their is a great article in the October issue of Consumer Reports. They basically debunk the whole ethenol flexfuel issue.
The article name is "The Ethanol Myth" Kinda says it all right there.
Actually I ran my 87 Diesel Suburban on about Biodiesel (B20) for a year with no modifications and no problems (other than being a GM). I am sure that eventually it would have required new fuel hoses but the truck ran great with the Biodiesel. Diesels require little modification to run Biodiesel and VW, Dodge and GM recommend that owners run B5 in current production vehicles. Link.
(I was not however, running Willy's brand)
Coal to Liquid Fuels Plans - A great plan for a fuel alternative. Unfortunately us gassers will still be left out as the process produces a synthetic fuel similar to diesel or kerosene.
These guys are offering a kit to convert almost any vehicle into a Flexfuel Vehicle - flextek.com If you do it we would love to see the write up.
I'm no hater - I'm already forced to run E10 with only minor ill effects.
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The problem with ethanol is it doesn't have enough energy per unit volume and is expensive to produce.
If every single acre of current and future farmable land were converted to growing corn for ethanol use, it would only yield something like 30 percent of our vehicle fuel needs in the US. Then we'd have to buy food from somewhere else. This info comes from popular mechanics, not from my noggin. I'm not 100% sure on the percentage, but I'll try and remember to look it up and repost if I am way wrong. I do remember that it didn't produce nearly enough fuel.
They can produce ethanol from cellulose fibers (ie wood chips, grass, and other waste products) but again, it is expensive to produce.
I like biodiesel - i bought an old mercedes diesel wagon to convert to either bio or veggie oil. Diesel engines are much more efficient in terms of MPG, so I think a full on conversion to more diesel engines is a first step to reducing our oil dependancy by increasing our per capita mpg. Honda and Mercedes are developing engines that will meet the stringent new CARB guidelines to reduce NOx emissions, so the pollution shouldn't be any worse than gasoline. I think they actually produced less CO2, but I'm not sure. I also don't know what the costs are associated with producing biodiesel vs. ethanol, but if they are anywhere close, biodiesel would win out because of the greater mpg the car with the diesel engine gets.
I don't think fuel cells will ever turn into anything as there are costs associated with producing the hydrogen.
I think that the best bet for our future is electric vehicles. Electricity can be produced with solar energy, wind energy, hydroelectric energy, and nuclear power, along with the standard coal, natural gas, and fuel oil. The price of photovoltaic cells is coming down everyday, and if everyone installed these on your roof, you'd have enough free energy to light your house and run you car. If they can improve battery technology to a point where the batteries will last say 15 years before they lose their charging capacity I think somebody would be in business.
I'm not a hippie or environmentalist persay, but I would like our country to be energy independent, and would like to not have to buy dern gasoline anymore!! Plus I just had a child and would like this world to clean up some so he won't be breathing in crap when he's my age.
Just my 2cents!
If every single acre of current and future farmable land were converted to growing corn for ethanol use, it would only yield something like 30 percent of our vehicle fuel needs in the US. Then we'd have to buy food from somewhere else. This info comes from popular mechanics, not from my noggin. I'm not 100% sure on the percentage, but I'll try and remember to look it up and repost if I am way wrong. I do remember that it didn't produce nearly enough fuel.
They can produce ethanol from cellulose fibers (ie wood chips, grass, and other waste products) but again, it is expensive to produce.
I like biodiesel - i bought an old mercedes diesel wagon to convert to either bio or veggie oil. Diesel engines are much more efficient in terms of MPG, so I think a full on conversion to more diesel engines is a first step to reducing our oil dependancy by increasing our per capita mpg. Honda and Mercedes are developing engines that will meet the stringent new CARB guidelines to reduce NOx emissions, so the pollution shouldn't be any worse than gasoline. I think they actually produced less CO2, but I'm not sure. I also don't know what the costs are associated with producing biodiesel vs. ethanol, but if they are anywhere close, biodiesel would win out because of the greater mpg the car with the diesel engine gets.
I don't think fuel cells will ever turn into anything as there are costs associated with producing the hydrogen.
I think that the best bet for our future is electric vehicles. Electricity can be produced with solar energy, wind energy, hydroelectric energy, and nuclear power, along with the standard coal, natural gas, and fuel oil. The price of photovoltaic cells is coming down everyday, and if everyone installed these on your roof, you'd have enough free energy to light your house and run you car. If they can improve battery technology to a point where the batteries will last say 15 years before they lose their charging capacity I think somebody would be in business.
I'm not a hippie or environmentalist persay, but I would like our country to be energy independent, and would like to not have to buy dern gasoline anymore!! Plus I just had a child and would like this world to clean up some so he won't be breathing in crap when he's my age.
Just my 2cents!
Bascailly 2 issues and a caveat.
Presence of non-ethanol materials in your system (inc both fuel delivery and combustion). Most recent vehicles fuel systems are ok due to the '79/88' req to use E10 - but you'd have to use experience as your guide for E85. Usually its some plastics and aluminum/magnesium that are the issues. Water contamination is an issue. Commercial infrastructure and sealed fuel systems mitigate risk, but most FFV engine internal parts are treated in case of contamination.
The stock LC 100 ECU will not be able to maintain A/F mixture. This is the real issue - without some means to map E85 combustion will not be efficient. Likely huff your cats, and longterm damage internals - pistons, valves etc. Dont expect dedicated E85 mileage filling up a petrol truck with E85. Why you need a kit - nomally a piggyback ECU.
Couple of companies are working on EPA certs for kits - but at present I dont think any are. There are significant penalities, but discovery very unlikely. Read Flexteks EPA info - its instructive. I'd be more worried about the integrity of any kit. I know the Midwest states are investing heavily , but I'd consider use as entirely experimental in a surplus vehicle. But you know your risk tolerence.
BTW current petrol infrastructure would not be able to be used as it allows for low amounts of water infiltration, which eth wont tolerate.
Brazil is a great example that will never happen here. Sugarcane is roughly 8 times more efficient compared to corn and 4 times to switch grass - regardless cellulosic production isnt currently feasible so we're stuck with corn. Eth wouldnt make nearly as big a dent as simple conservation. Trading a LC for a hybrid-camry would cost less and have more impact. Please understand if we imported all of Brazils production of eth it would only provide about 6% of our vehicle fuels needs (Ive seen 4-9% but 6% seems to be most quoted). As above, Consumer Reports, PopSci and a number of other mags have done a good job distilling the academic work on this subject. Eth is useful, esp as a ox additive, but it will not provide the US with a significant portion of fuel. Comparing Federal Ag Subsidies to RE research helps put things in perspective.
tfrain:
With PV modules costing rougly $5.50 per watt, a grid tie system (no storage) providing near yearly average of usage costs somewhere between 1/6 and 1/4 of the median cost of a new home, depending on local home values and solar resource available. Batteries are a non issue in PV unless you are unable or unwilling to be grid tied.
If you're interested in practical energy independence, google Amory Lovins - Rocky Mountain Institute.
Luck
Alac
Presence of non-ethanol materials in your system (inc both fuel delivery and combustion). Most recent vehicles fuel systems are ok due to the '79/88' req to use E10 - but you'd have to use experience as your guide for E85. Usually its some plastics and aluminum/magnesium that are the issues. Water contamination is an issue. Commercial infrastructure and sealed fuel systems mitigate risk, but most FFV engine internal parts are treated in case of contamination.
The stock LC 100 ECU will not be able to maintain A/F mixture. This is the real issue - without some means to map E85 combustion will not be efficient. Likely huff your cats, and longterm damage internals - pistons, valves etc. Dont expect dedicated E85 mileage filling up a petrol truck with E85. Why you need a kit - nomally a piggyback ECU.
Couple of companies are working on EPA certs for kits - but at present I dont think any are. There are significant penalities, but discovery very unlikely. Read Flexteks EPA info - its instructive. I'd be more worried about the integrity of any kit. I know the Midwest states are investing heavily , but I'd consider use as entirely experimental in a surplus vehicle. But you know your risk tolerence.
BTW current petrol infrastructure would not be able to be used as it allows for low amounts of water infiltration, which eth wont tolerate.
Brazil is a great example that will never happen here. Sugarcane is roughly 8 times more efficient compared to corn and 4 times to switch grass - regardless cellulosic production isnt currently feasible so we're stuck with corn. Eth wouldnt make nearly as big a dent as simple conservation. Trading a LC for a hybrid-camry would cost less and have more impact. Please understand if we imported all of Brazils production of eth it would only provide about 6% of our vehicle fuels needs (Ive seen 4-9% but 6% seems to be most quoted). As above, Consumer Reports, PopSci and a number of other mags have done a good job distilling the academic work on this subject. Eth is useful, esp as a ox additive, but it will not provide the US with a significant portion of fuel. Comparing Federal Ag Subsidies to RE research helps put things in perspective.
tfrain:
With PV modules costing rougly $5.50 per watt, a grid tie system (no storage) providing near yearly average of usage costs somewhere between 1/6 and 1/4 of the median cost of a new home, depending on local home values and solar resource available. Batteries are a non issue in PV unless you are unable or unwilling to be grid tied.
If you're interested in practical energy independence, google Amory Lovins - Rocky Mountain Institute.
Luck
Alac
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Just a footnote on Hydrogen; The Dept of Energy and the primary contractor, Battelle, are investing alot of time and your money (billions) on getting hydrogen to the market in ten years or less at the INL, (Idaho Natl. Lab) near Idaho Falls. I worked there for two years.
Forgot to include that info about sugarcane being more efficient source of ethanol - thanks for posting that as that is very important when considering Brazil as an example.
Regarding PV, - I know nothing about the costs, but IF more people would use them, I would think the costs would go down. If i am not mistaken, the costs have gone down considerably from say a decade ago. I also don't really know how long they last, but the sheer idea of a piece of equipment making electricity out of sunshine is just awesome.
Regarding the batteries, i was really talking about batteries for use in an automobile as opposed to storage for a household. If they can deal with the memory issues, the heat issues, the cost, and the storage capacity per pound, they MIGHT be able to come up with a practical vehicle for the masses. I know I personally would love to get a car that would last as long as a gasoline vehicle that got say a 150 mile range per charge. That is more than enough for my commute and running whatever errands I need to run. I can't remember the specific number, but I believe it is only 30% per mile to use electricity as fuel as opposed to gasoline. I'd still want to have a gasoline car for longer jaunts, but I bet some 80% of people would be well served by a car like that. I'd just be scared of it not lasting as I keep my cars for so long.
Regarding PV, - I know nothing about the costs, but IF more people would use them, I would think the costs would go down. If i am not mistaken, the costs have gone down considerably from say a decade ago. I also don't really know how long they last, but the sheer idea of a piece of equipment making electricity out of sunshine is just awesome.
Regarding the batteries, i was really talking about batteries for use in an automobile as opposed to storage for a household. If they can deal with the memory issues, the heat issues, the cost, and the storage capacity per pound, they MIGHT be able to come up with a practical vehicle for the masses. I know I personally would love to get a car that would last as long as a gasoline vehicle that got say a 150 mile range per charge. That is more than enough for my commute and running whatever errands I need to run. I can't remember the specific number, but I believe it is only 30% per mile to use electricity as fuel as opposed to gasoline. I'd still want to have a gasoline car for longer jaunts, but I bet some 80% of people would be well served by a car like that. I'd just be scared of it not lasting as I keep my cars for so long.
and I'll lookup that post about the Rocky Mountain thingymagic. That stuff is always interesting reading.
There is a frequent article in PM about a family living off the grid somewhere in Montana (or somewhere off the beaten path) - primarily because there is no elec. service there. Very interesting is their ingenuity.
There is a frequent article in PM about a family living off the grid somewhere in Montana (or somewhere off the beaten path) - primarily because there is no elec. service there. Very interesting is their ingenuity.
