flat batteries.. again

[OffRoadRunner]

Hi All, BJ74 - 24v system (1987 model)

I have been using a work car quite regularly for the past 6 month, using the BJ74 when i can & for camping trips etc..

anyways, batts went dead a while ago.. i just thought they were old.. i tried to re-charge, but they were clapped out (wouldn't hold charge).. so i replaced.

Took the 74 for a 3000km road trip about 2 months ago. bought 2 brand new identical 660 cranking amp batts before we left. During the trip my Aux 12V batt (powered by a redarc charge equaliser CE30 - 13.8 volt regulated battery charger) went dead after draining it with the fridge - so i thought.
During the no-use period of 6 weeks or so, i disconnected the redarc CE30 to the Aux 12V batt, so i could recharge the aux batt.
note: the CE30 is only operational when the ignition is 'ON'.. run by a relay.

Went to fire her up this morning and dead batts again.. the alarm went off a week or so ago due to a hail storm, so they were ok then i presume.

I do have a small 5amp voltage converter running for the alarm and stereo deck.. very small draw.
the amp & sub etc.. all go throught the disconnected Aux 12V batt.. (which is also dead now and wont recharge).. so this shouldn't be the cause
i will replace AUX batt with a deep cycle i think

My battery system has been set up like this for about 2-3 years now with no issues at all.

Any tips on where my leakage may be?

im thinking the alternator might be stuffed? but i had this replaced (by a second hand unit) about 2 years ago..
Are there any other common electrical loss's anyone has come across on these 74's

Might have to get myself a muiltimeter and get to the bottom of this as the company car is going going gone in a week or so.

thanks in advance for your help guys

Cheers Iain

 

[cicak]

dude i will offer what happened to my LJ77 so you can see if this is your sit.

If if you are running any 12V connections to the battery then you have a problem.

The 12v battery you pull current from will pull down slowly and never recharge fully (requires both battteries to be disconnected from the truck and charged with battery charger). when you are charging the 24v batteries it will stop when the stong one is full. Meantime the one you run 12V from will not charge fully.

We also had someone connect windows (12V) etc direct to 12V on the battery so it was live all the time . Also someone also a "qualified" auto sparky connected the 12v instruments direct to the battery and bypassed the ignition resulting in power being pulled all the time .

Eventually the truck will get to the point where it will not start. Battery tester will show one strong and one weak. I know I went through this for several years replacing a battery every 2-3 months until we removed all 12V connections and used 24-12V relays of the ignition to stop batteries going flat.

This solution has now been running for 10months with no flat batteries and i can leave the truck for weeks and it starts first time.

You may also have an earth problem somewhere. When you connect the batteries is there sparks when the ignition is off? if so oops!

 

[boogie74]

Hey mate,

You didn't have a wet cell battery venting into the cab did you?

I had a similar problem I while ago not long after I got my BJ74. Not sure if its the same as yours. My 12V stereo was wired directly to one of the batteries. A few months after I got it I had dead batteries and the PO reckond he just put new ones in. I found the problem after the batteries died a couple of times, removed the steroes wire, bought a converter and the batteries have worked since then. When I say worked, they start the car but dont hold charge to long. My alternator is charging at 28V which is in spec but if I dont drive the cruiser for a few days it wont start. I'm luck cause I have 24V aux batteries so I can jump off them. Here is a diagram of my setup using RedArc SBI24:

Hope you find the problem and share your findings. My starting batteries look like they are spilling their guts occassionally
cause they are a bit wet on top. Think my starters are rooted.

Sorry I cant help but keep us posted mate.

 

[OffRoadRunner]

thanks for the comments guys,

yeah i had some very dodgy electrics when i took over the vehicle from the PO.. he was a friend of my old man's and paid good money to auto sparkies & stereo shop who did some bad things.. I cut out all the s***ty wiring, the 2 different 24-12V voltage converters (5amp and a 15amp) a while back and the batt system i have now has worked well for ages..

system is like this
- 5amp 24-12V converter above the glovebox for alarm & stereo deck
- redarc CE30 13.8v battery charger / charge equaliser (installed as per attch)
- CE30 draws from the highside 24V battery, operates by relay when ignition "ON"
- yeah wet cell battery with a cover over it.. did leak just a little sometimes
View attachment CE30 setup.pdf
from the manual:
"The REDARC charge equaliser operates in a two battery 24 volt DC negative earth system. The Output Voltage of the Charge
Equaliser is regulated to half the Input Voltage. 12 volt power is available from the lower battery in a 24 volt system via the centre tap.
The Charge Equaliser ensures that the voltage in the lower 12V battery is equalised to the voltage of the upper 12V battery in the 24V
bank. ALTERNATIVELY it can be used to maintain charge in a separate 12 volt auxiliary battery."

Is any one else using this redarc system?

i will check the earths, but were fine when i installed the newer batts.. something could have come loose i guess.

The only straight draw is the 5amp 24-12V converter for the alarm and the deck shouldn't draw until ignition on, everything else is 12V is off the aux batt

Seems to be only recently that its played up.. could possibly be due to not driving it very often? but i drove it about 6 weeks ago.
Also where should i test to see where current is going once i recharge the batteries?

Cheers

 

[OffRoadRunner]

sorry, try the pic again..
View attachment my CE30 setup.pdf
hope that works (it was the top left of the different options)

thanks again

 

[boogie74]

Thats a good duel battery set up you have. I looked at installing the same thing when I was doing my set up. Have you
considered calling Redarc and having a chat to there tech department. The problem may not with the equaliser but
their tech guys might be able to help. I called them a couple of times with questions about my setup and they were really
helpful. Even replaced my isolator when its $h!t itself, however, it may not have been faulty cause I think I didn't earth it
properly/bad earth.

Anyway thats another option.
Hope you sort it out.
Any pics of your 74??????

Cheers.

 

[OffRoadRunner]

hey all,

I also forgot to mention that the first dead set of batteries were completely dry.. i must admit I hadn't checked them since buying the vehicle 3 years ago..

what is the cause of dry batteries? im lead to believe its draw back from the alternator?

Also tried to charge up my 'new' dead batteries.. one is charging now, but the other was shorting out the charger?? really strange.. ive never seen that before..

so now im thinking that possibly one of the new batteries was faulty.. i will investigate this

Cheers and thanks for your comments if you guys have any

Iain

 

[boogie74]

Sorry mate cant really help but I would like to know about the
Alternator Draw Back you speak of. I check my batteries every
couple of weeks and sometimes have to top em up with water.
Is there a solution to fix Draw Back?

I think my batterries are rooted now so new ones are on the
cards. Knowing the best way to care for the new ones is what
I'm looking to now.

Cheers Mate!!!!!

250+ Club

 

[NTFJ45]

Anybody correct me if I am wrong, but I thought dry batteries can indicate over charging which leads to premature battery failure ?

 

[boogie74]

Here is my 24V battery senario:

I reckon my battery system is reliable however there is something NQR about it. Symptoms:
1. Battery occassionally spills it guts/water used in a few of the cells. Usually the ones closest to the terminals.
2. Charge voltage fluctuates between 26.5 to 28.5 volts depending on the engine load.

The RedArc battery isolater does what its spose to. Switches over to charge both batteries at around 27 volts. One thing I find interesting is that when I start the BJ74 for the first time in the day the cruiser will start and then the volts will drop. They slowly go down to maybe 17 or 18 volts. If its at night the headlights and dash will be dim and the dash volt meter will slowly fall aswell. Then after idling for a minute or two the volts will suddenly rise to 25 and slowly charge to 27 when the islotater kicks in. Do any other 24V cruisers drop volts on start up?

I monitor my battery system on this dual voltmeter:
This is what it reads with the ignition off.

 

[Radd Cruisers]

hey all,

I also forgot to mention that the first dead set of batteries were completely dry.. i must admit I hadn't checked them since buying the vehicle 3 years ago..

what is the cause of dry batteries? im lead to believe its draw back from the alternator?

Also tried to charge up my 'new' dead batteries.. one is charging now, but the other was shorting out the charger?? really strange.. ive never seen that before..

so now im thinking that possibly one of the new batteries was faulty.. i will investigate this

Cheers and thanks for your comments if you guys have any

Iain

Fluid coming from the batteries is an indication that they are being over-charged and the acid is "boiling off".

Dry batteries are from severe or long term over-charging.

Are you using liquid filled batteries or AGMs ? AGMs are not approprite in 24V dual battery systems in my experience unless you want to use a very expensive charge monitoring system such as is found in marine applications.

Check to see if the battery that is "shorting" your charger has reversed polarity. This can happen when you have one weak battery and one strong one OR if you are hooking one battery up to a charger without isolating (disconnecting) the battery pair.

In my limited experience with charge equalisers, they do not work. You would be better off using a system that charges both banks of 24V batteries while the engine is running and isolates them when the engine is off (a solenoid system).Then running any 12V loads off a high quality 24-12V converter. High quality converters are not, typically, made in places like China...

If storing your vehicle for more than a week or two at at time, you should disconnect the ground.


~John

 

[Radd Cruisers]

Here is my 24V battery senario:

I reckon my battery system is reliable however there is something NQR about it. Symptoms:
1. Battery occassionally spills it guts/water used in a few of the cells. Usually the ones closest to the terminals.
2. Charge voltage fluctuates between 26.5 to 28.5 volts depending on the engine load.

1. This is an indication of OVER-charging.
2. These voltages are normal for the system, but any ONE battery may be getting MORE than half of that 26.5 - 28.5 volts.

Here is my 24V battery senario:
The RedArc battery isolater does what its supposed to. Switches over to charge both batteries at around 27 volts. One thing I find interesting is that when I start the BJ74 for the first time in the day the cruiser will start and then the volts will drop. They slowly go down to maybe 17 or 18 volts. If its at night the headlights and dash will be dim and the dash volt meter will slowly fall aswell. Then after idling for a minute or two the volts will suddenly rise to 25 and slowly charge to 27 when the islotater kicks in. Do any other 24V cruisers drop volts on start up?

The voltage drop is from the glow system operating. This is normal - the glow screen draws a whack of current ( a "whack" is a large amount...).

The voltage drop is a bit much, and you probably have one or both batteries that are weak for your application.

Here is my 24V battery senario:
I monitor my battery system on this dual voltmeter:
This is what it reads with the ignition off.

After the surface charge is scrubbed off, your batteries - if in GOOD condition - should read about 12.5 to 12.6 volts EACH. The numbers on your read out are normal.

My vote is to:

A) Get rid of any 12V draws.
B) Make sure your batteries test well with BOTH an inductive-type and a load-type battery tester.
C) Disconnect your battery grounds when storing your vehicle for any period over a week.
D) Get rid of your charge balancer system, and go with a isolation system using a solenoid system.
E) Make sure your batteries are matched as to size, make, type and date code (and if you can draw off electrolyte from the cells [non-maintenance free type batteries] then the SG should be virtually identical. Generally, a good calcium/calcium maintenance free battery is the better choice.
F) Do not use AGM batteries.
G) Use a high quality voltage converter for any 12V loads.


~John

 

[boogie74]

Thanks John.

I think my system is in good nic but the starter batteries are in average shape. They have had a hard life and
I'm up for new ones soon. Might get a new voltage regulator at the same time to. I'm not sure if the voltage
should be fluctuating as it does between 26 and 28.5 volts.

Awesome info once again,

Thanks John

Gav.

 

[moosecruiser]

as already stated:
test the batteries with a load testing device (i have a tester that will give a static reading and one under load) a battery can read 12V static but as soon as a load goes on then it hits the red. battery needs a good long low amp charge or it has a bad cell from being drained too many times completely dead. this kills a cell and time for a new battery.

i will second Johns statement if you have 12V assecories on your truck, if it is sitting idle for a week, disconnect the ground. even the smallest of drain will kill the 12V battery.

finally, buy good quality batteries. (Optima are NOT good quality batteries) you can get excellent interstate, Napa even canadian tire sells good batteries (and crap).

i don't know how many times over the last 30 years i have heard this story. it gets boring after a while.

in the 74 series there is a 24-12 stereo adapter above the glove box liner. i use that for the stereo and small amp. if you need more 12V accesories than that, go buy a 12V truck.

 

[Greg_B]

In my limited experience with charge equalizers, they do not work. You would be better off using a system that charges both banks of 24V batteries while the engine is running and isolates them when the engine is off (a solenoid system).Then running any 12V loads off a high quality 24-12V converter. High quality converters are not, typically, made in places like China...

If storing your vehicle for more than a week or two at at time, you should disconnect the ground. John

Good advice on all counts John. I would add:

I've been using a charge equalizer on my BJ74 for 3 years. Works great, however it adds a level of complexity to the the vehicle that is not for everybody. There's a few things I've learned:

1) Do the install yourself. Understand it.

2) If the vehicle is going to be worked on by anyone else, disconnect the system yourself 1st, in the correct sequence.

3) Every vehicle service...check the install, battery charge, and wiring.

4) Install though a relay so the load balance feature only works while the truck is running. Any battery charge difference is sensed by the unit, and it will will shunt from the higher to the lower battery....drawing down both batteries. Cold weather or mismatched batteries will show this right away.

5) If you are going to take a heavy load off one battery, ensure the ignition is on, so the load balance feature is working. Give the charge system time to recover the battery which supplied the juice. If using the high side battery to supply 12V, do not use chassis ground (yes, it needs to be mentioned).

6) Every load balancer I've seen on the market stress's the importance of correct sequence for hooking up and unhooking. Incorrectly taking any of the units in and out of the system can and will cause issues.

I would take Johns comment one further.

A) I'm liking the 3rd deep cycle battery (deka, penn state, etc) for supplying 12Vs more and more. Folks I know that are running it have not looked back.

B) If your 12V needs are moderate (under 20amps) then yes...install a quality converter of your choice. Run all your 12V needs to a fuse strip, supplied by the converter. (plug and play folk)

C) If you may have occasional heavy 12V loads, want to ensure the batteries charge is balanced, and don't mind/are aware of the complexity a load balancer puts into the system...run a load balance of your choice.

OffRoadRunner

Do what has been suggested: Load test batteries and have your charge system checked. This might be nothing to do with the converter and Redarc load balancer. You won't know till you eliminate possibilities. Even a small load like clock, mem-preset, alarm, minor converter draw when static...will take your batteries down when sitting for extended periods of time. Starting batteries do not like this. If sitting for extended periods use a trickle charge/battery minder, or disconnect the neutral of the low side battery.

My charge system also takes a minute or so to start, on the 1st start of the day. And I know my glow system is not activated. Your glow screen should not be coming on unless you are around 0C. Maybe check to see if there is current at the poles on the screen.

hth's

gb

 

[OffRoadRunner]

Hi Guys, thanks for the comments & great advice.

I agree with the above in that 24-12V converters are not a great idea for lots of 12V loads, and thats why i went with the 12V AUX battery and Charge Equaliser operating as a 13.8V battery charger, that operates when ignition "ON".

Boogie74.. i would look into replacing the charge equaliser with a CE30-13.8 like mine (or another alternative) and have a dedicated 12V battery. Dedicated 12V is a really good way to go about it so you never run down your starting bank.

Greg, you are correct there is certain sequence to disconnect & re-connect the unit - the 12V terminal is to be disconnected first & connected last.

I will now also go with a deep cycle for my 12V needs.. I am using lead acid batteries.. is that ok? should be yeah? they are definitely not AGM's

So, i took the 'faulty' battery (the one that was shorting out my charger) into the store yesterday and it failed, ca-put.. so they replaced it thankfully.
I am hoping this was the cause of my problems..

But now I am left with a brand new battery and an identical battery that is 2 months old.. I bough a multimeter today, so i will try and charge up so they have the same charge, but sounds like I may have issues with the two batteries of different ages?

Greg (& others) thanks for the comments, I will disconnect the low battery earth when in storage to avoid the 24V starting bank going flat in future

I still might have an issue with over charging and batteries going dry... i will check this out aswell.. time may tell for this one..
I did notice that my 12V aux battery was spilling a bit of fluid aswell..

Hopefully im back on the road in a few days and I will see how it plays out.

Thanks again.

 

[boogie74]

Hi Iain,

If you look at my wiring diagram in my first post you will see I'm not running anything off my starters
except what Mr Toyota wired in when he built my cruiser. I have two 24V battery banks. One to start
and one for accessories. Redarc make a battery isolator that is for 24V vehicles (SBI24) this is wired
between the banks and acts like any other battery isolator. My system is exactly like a regular 12V
setup except that its 24V (two batteries each side). Two wet cells to start two Fullriver 85 AMP AGM's
for fridge and acc. No probs with this setup after 18 months, just that the starters were damaged by
the PO. I think I saved them but I want to up grade the starters now causes there not 100%.

Here's the wiring diagram:

Here are the aux batteries the starters are under the bonnet:

Two of these bad boys:

 

[Radd Cruisers]

And I know my glow system is not activated. Your glow screen should not be coming on unless you are around 0C. Maybe check to see if there is current at the poles on the screen.

hth's

gb

The glow screen will operate at ambient temps above 0C - though you will not see the glow light go on until at or below 0C. This is in post-glow mode to prevent smoke on start up and for the first few minutes of running.

~John