Physics is physics, you can't just pick and choose when you want to use it. The crumple zone of the F150 did indeed absorbed energy that would have otherwise been transmitted to both vehicles. Alaska's logic is correct saying that if the 80 crumpled as much as the Ford then less force would have been directed to the passengers but this is because more energy would have been displaced. Less force would have been dirrected towards the passengers in the Ford as well and maybe they would have been able to walk away from the accident without medical assistance. The reason that the 80 has such less visible damage is because it was built to handle the amount of force more efficiently without distorting while maintaining the integrity of the passenger cabin. Still, like others here have said, you see a lot more physical damage to the other vehicle and passengers in the other vehicles when they are involved in a crash with an 80 and this is why I drive one. Now it would be interesting to see how much damage 2 Cruisers would take if they hit head on, I would be willing to bet that the passengers would be a lot more sore in the morning.
FJ80 vs F150
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Obviously my train example was over the top, which is what I said. But, sorry, if you have a head on accident and one vehicle is expending energy using crumple zones, you are not expending that energy for that one vehicle only; you are expending it from the entire accident and both vehicles and passengers reap those benefits.
That being said, if the this specific 80 was made to expend energy in that same way then yes, the total amount of energy transferred to the passengers of both vehicles would have been less... But that wasn't my point.
Interesting points and correct IMO. If either car crumples, both drivers benefit because it reduces the peak Gs of the impact.
I didn't bring this up earlier but there seems to be sustained interest. As the forces/impact speed increase, the advantage increasingly accrues to the 'harder' vehicle. In higher speed devastating impacts, a vehicle like the 80 will cause disproportionately more and more damage to a softer vehicle as that vehicle runs out of crush space and the cabin begins to deform. Modern vehicles are incredibly good at absorbing energy and maintaining cabin space. And even when the crush space is essentially used up, if there's more coming the airbags will mitigate injury. But eventually, if a partly deformed LandCruiser frame and engine block is still coming your way, you have to pay the piper. At that point, the vehicle would do well to get spun out of the way, but the Cruiser is on the taller end of things, which means it will tend to be atop the other vehicle and prevent that. This same point also means the Cruiser is about to get rolled - hard - which is frequently the outcome of headlight to headlight offsets with SUVs vs smaller cars. Clearly the danger is greater in the crushed car than the flipped Cruiser under most circumstances, though.
My brother's 80 hit showed the advantage of a heavy bar like the ARB keeping the frame tips tied and working together under circumstances that would have normally caused them to be bent separately. The stock bumper is no more than a piece of formed thick sheetmetal and will not help control the front frames in a really severe hit. It is why both our 80s now have ARBs, though I also like the protection against mild hits and deer as well.
I was on a search sometime in the last year or so, and yakking with a couple Sheriff's Deputies about stuff when I overheard one say his wife wanted to sell their smaller car and replace it with a pickup. Another deputy responded that she must want to move up the 'lugnut scale'. I couldn't resist, so I asked what that meant and they were surprised I'd never heard about the lugnut scale. Over the years of responding to motor vehicle accidents, they'd realized that usually the larger vehicle drivers win, and having more lugnuts was another way of saying that. 3/4 ton pickups with 8 lugs do better against lighter pickups with 6 lugs, semis have 10 or more lugnuts, etc. Was kinda funny, but probably a pretty statistically valid observation.
Above all this yakking though, the #1 thing you can do to keep yourself safe is to buckle your seatbelt and develop a habit of subconsciously and frequently pulling the slack out of it. Especially you guys with pre-95 80 Series trucks without airbags. For 19 years, my license plate frames have read "Buckle Up" (compliments of Toyota USA).
DougM
I didn't bring this up earlier but there seems to be sustained interest. As the forces/impact speed increase, the advantage increasingly accrues to the 'harder' vehicle. In higher speed devastating impacts, a vehicle like the 80 will cause disproportionately more and more damage to a softer vehicle as that vehicle runs out of crush space and the cabin begins to deform. Modern vehicles are incredibly good at absorbing energy and maintaining cabin space. And even when the crush space is essentially used up, if there's more coming the airbags will mitigate injury. But eventually, if a partly deformed LandCruiser frame and engine block is still coming your way, you have to pay the piper. At that point, the vehicle would do well to get spun out of the way, but the Cruiser is on the taller end of things, which means it will tend to be atop the other vehicle and prevent that. This same point also means the Cruiser is about to get rolled - hard - which is frequently the outcome of headlight to headlight offsets with SUVs vs smaller cars. Clearly the danger is greater in the crushed car than the flipped Cruiser under most circumstances, though.
My brother's 80 hit showed the advantage of a heavy bar like the ARB keeping the frame tips tied and working together under circumstances that would have normally caused them to be bent separately. The stock bumper is no more than a piece of formed thick sheetmetal and will not help control the front frames in a really severe hit. It is why both our 80s now have ARBs, though I also like the protection against mild hits and deer as well.
I was on a search sometime in the last year or so, and yakking with a couple Sheriff's Deputies about stuff when I overheard one say his wife wanted to sell their smaller car and replace it with a pickup. Another deputy responded that she must want to move up the 'lugnut scale'. I couldn't resist, so I asked what that meant and they were surprised I'd never heard about the lugnut scale. Over the years of responding to motor vehicle accidents, they'd realized that usually the larger vehicle drivers win, and having more lugnuts was another way of saying that. 3/4 ton pickups with 8 lugs do better against lighter pickups with 6 lugs, semis have 10 or more lugnuts, etc. Was kinda funny, but probably a pretty statistically valid observation.
Above all this yakking though, the #1 thing you can do to keep yourself safe is to buckle your seatbelt and develop a habit of subconsciously and frequently pulling the slack out of it. Especially you guys with pre-95 80 Series trucks without airbags. For 19 years, my license plate frames have read "Buckle Up" (compliments of Toyota USA).
DougM
Hmmm... Funny that somebody else does that too. Every time I get into the truck I buckle my belt and pull it upwards towards the pillar to make sure I feel pressure on my chest. I didn't notice how much I loved this sensation until I had to drive my previous car for 15 miles without seatbelts. I removed the belts as I was painting the pillars and I had to visit a friend urgently. This was a scary 20 minute ride even though nothing happened. I just had no belts and felt total freedom in my chest. I remember this though it was 7 years ago.
So I hope that you are as much used to seatbelts as I am.
So I hope that you are as much used to seatbelts as I am.
Glad your ok.
Got a hood if ya need it....Pm me.
Got a hood if ya need it....Pm me.
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Glad everyone is OK! That generation F150 isn't one I would own, not that I would own a ford, but that one doesn't do well in crashes.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=7
Compare to an early Tundra.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=5
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=7
Compare to an early Tundra.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=5
alaskacruiser,
I was just about to mention the case where frontal zone damage does not nessesarly mean a inforior product as the ford f-150. Case point. How would both the passangers of the Ford f-150 and the Toyota fj80 fair if both collided head on into a cement wall at say 40 mph? I have no stats on how these two vehicles faired well at Insurance Institute for Highway Safety or other independent Safety agencies but if the indications from a visual persepctive of the damage of these vehicles I would say the passangers injuries in the Ford F-150 would be less severe then that of the Toyota.
BTW the extent of damage to your toyota vs the ford are impressive. Some one in ih8mud also showed the same damage a year ago and the arb bar helps to protect the front end from other more extensive damage.
I was just about to mention the case where frontal zone damage does not nessesarly mean a inforior product as the ford f-150. Case point. How would both the passangers of the Ford f-150 and the Toyota fj80 fair if both collided head on into a cement wall at say 40 mph? I have no stats on how these two vehicles faired well at Insurance Institute for Highway Safety or other independent Safety agencies but if the indications from a visual persepctive of the damage of these vehicles I would say the passangers injuries in the Ford F-150 would be less severe then that of the Toyota.
BTW the extent of damage to your toyota vs the ford are impressive. Some one in ih8mud also showed the same damage a year ago and the arb bar helps to protect the front end from other more extensive damage.
Okay, I'm grabbing my fire extinguisher.
I can see from the pictures that the "damage multiplier" definitely damaged the quarter panels, radiator, grill, etc...., but in my question is this: wouldn't his front end damage be worse without the brush guard. In other words...brush guard vs. ARB = ARB WINS, but brush guard vs. stock bumper....I would think that the brush guard would win.
Bring on the heat.
I can see from the pictures that the "damage multiplier" definitely damaged the quarter panels, radiator, grill, etc...., but in my question is this: wouldn't his front end damage be worse without the brush guard. In other words...brush guard vs. ARB = ARB WINS, but brush guard vs. stock bumper....I would think that the brush guard would win.
Bring on the heat.
I had that thought as well. From the pictures it almost looks like the damage multiplier helped in the front end collision by strengthening the bumper.
Maybe, but depending on the actual height of impact, his damage could have been limited to the bumper and frame ends.
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None of the agencies have tested the 80, but a few here have and using that "data" your theory doesn't look good! Even in Scott’s case, highway speed into a stopped construction crane, the occupant compartment relatively minimally affected for the severity of the impact. IIRC the counterweight that he hit was spaced up off the ground, allowing the bumper to go somewhat under it, introducing a bending stress, wound up with the bumper/front frame bent way up. If it had been a barrier test, flat vertical surface to the ground I would guess that the deforming to the occupant compartment would probably have been less.
Did you read the F150 test results on this page? http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=7 This quote pretty much covers it; “Major collapse of the occupant compartment left little survival space for the driver.” Yes crumple zones are important, reducing the impact to the occupants, but if the occupants survival space collapses the chances of injury, death are way higher.
NeverFinis
SILVER Star
You were lucky that you hit an older F150 when they still designed in crumple zones. The new ones are much stiffer in the front end to score higher on the front end off-set crash (hit a cement block). All this test proves is how well the vehicle does when hitting a similar sized vehicle (which happened to be your FJ80 in this case).
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=192
The problem with stiffer front ends is that the smaller vehicle will now be the crush zone...I agree that both drivers were lucky that one vehicle had a crumple zone.
There was a study done that said that vehicles getting much stiffer front ends will lead to increased fatalities...
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=192
The problem with stiffer front ends is that the smaller vehicle will now be the crush zone...I agree that both drivers were lucky that one vehicle had a crumple zone.
There was a study done that said that vehicles getting much stiffer front ends will lead to increased fatalities...
m1*v1=m2*v2
Mass is important, but so is velocity. Doug's post is also critical in that crumple zones absorb some of the energy so that it isn't transferred to the occupants.
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The newer design still has a crumple zone and it looks to perform well, the crumple zone should not include the occupants survival space. On the older design the occupants survival space collapsed, crumpled, this isn’t a good thing.
Since this was an F150 we are talking about (size wise only) I think the damage would have extended beyond bumper and frame ends. I guess I just think that brush guards get a bad rap. having something seems better than nothing to me. Of course, an ARB is going to give you armored car like protection.
The crash analysis is interesting. The Ford definitely lost. My wife had a similar situation with her 4WD Toyo van (unibody). A kid in a Grand Cherokee (also unibody) hit her head-on at 50+ and lost! The Jeep had the front axle under the front seats, the frame crushed back a foot. Most of the plastic front body was gone and it was laying on its side in a bus stop! The van had skid marks on the windshield! I drove the van away. As the headlights were gone and it was dark out, I parked it and called for a tow. The man whose teenage daughter was driving his Jeep was not happy.
As I remember, Josh was looking for help more than analysis. Does anyone have a line on the body parts needed for repair? I tend to agree with the custom bumper ideas above here. But if you want to stay stock for now, Josh, I have a '96 bumper. You can have it for the cost of delivery. It is yours if you need it.
Frame damage on the front frame horns is not too serious. 80 front suspension is aligned from at least 3 feet back from the front of the frame. I would check it out very well. Have someone follow you while driving if you can. Look for misalignment in your tracking from behind. Get an estimate from a body shop that specializes in frame work. You need to know if anything that holds the suspension is out of line. Just keep in mind that the shop is looking for work to do. They have a need to work the insurance. If you love your truck, don't let them junk it!
If it is totaled, I would buy it back and do the repair. Then take the money. PM me if the bumper will help...
As I remember, Josh was looking for help more than analysis. Does anyone have a line on the body parts needed for repair? I tend to agree with the custom bumper ideas above here. But if you want to stay stock for now, Josh, I have a '96 bumper. You can have it for the cost of delivery. It is yours if you need it.
Frame damage on the front frame horns is not too serious. 80 front suspension is aligned from at least 3 feet back from the front of the frame. I would check it out very well. Have someone follow you while driving if you can. Look for misalignment in your tracking from behind. Get an estimate from a body shop that specializes in frame work. You need to know if anything that holds the suspension is out of line. Just keep in mind that the shop is looking for work to do. They have a need to work the insurance. If you love your truck, don't let them junk it!
If it is totaled, I would buy it back and do the repair. Then take the money. PM me if the bumper will help...
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