fj80 needing some love

[TiredIronGRB]

how do you like that system ? how can it be improoved ?


frankie....

I really like it, and I haul a bunch of cargo (tools, chain saw, water and fuel cans, spare 38" Bogger, camping supplies) and it sits very leve even with all of that.

I recently added front bump stop spacers and that helped on real rough terrain,

 

[frankies off road]

Frankie,
I recently parted out 2 fj 80's a 93 and a 94. i have a whole storage room full of parts if you need anything. i have a set of stock wheels with some 315 Bfg muds on them and a set of custom allied rock a thons beadlocks with some 37" Bfg muds on them. i also have 2 complete interiors with spector off road camo waterproof seat covers, ome J springs and L shocks, a complete drivetrain, and a bunch of other shat to boot. If you need anything let me know if i don't have it i can get it for you as i have access to a ton of 80 parts suppliers. Is Ben Pleasants still working for you? Ben and i went to high school together and i gained alot of my cruiser knowledge from him. He is a very talented guy who should be able to help you build one hell of an awesome 80.
Later,
Matt

Hi
Yes ben is a now a member of the family and We are very happy to have him,,

PLEASE PM ME YOUR CONTACT INFO as i do need parts...

thanks,,,

frankie...

 

[Bruneti]

how do you like that system ? how can it be improoved ?


frankie....

F.O.R. -
People who have moved from the OME springs to the Slee 4" have been very impressed with the improved road manners with the higher spring rates. They have also seen less spring sag from bumpers, sliders, and passenger load.

Here is what I personally would like to see - a lift that is equivalent to the OME heavy front / medium rear in height and levelness, but with higher spring rates similar to the Slee 4". Make this available with Bilstein oem replacement shocks, or as an upgrade for the more serious offroad crowd - carefully selected Bilstein shocks (possibly with eye to eye adapters) to get maximum articulation, but the quality of product and ride that Bilstein is known for. This might require having shocks custom valved similar to the Bilstein oem replacement shocks to handle the weight of the 80. Keep the lift low enough to minimize the risk of driveshaft vibrations, and offer a couple caster correction bushings in addition to the one available from OME. That way people can install the lift, have caster measured, and then order the bushing with the proper degree of correction for their particular truck. So many people comment that they enjoyed their truck the most when it was on a basic OME lift. It increased the vehicle's capability a lot, but kept the cost and commitment reasonable. Once they went higher things started getting out of hand, and that's what starts to limit your market. Keep it simple, but capable to build your customer base. Then get crazy from there.

OME is popular because they have a package that works. That's not to say that it couldn't be significantly improved on.
I truly wish Slee offered this, but I'll request it from you as well.
Thanks for listening.

 

[Nay]

F.O.R. -
People who have moved from the OME springs to the Slee 4" have been very impressed with the improved road manners with the higher spring rates. They have also seen less spring sag from bumpers, sliders, and passenger load.

Here is what I personally would like to see - a lift that is equivalent to the OME heavy front / medium rear in height and levelness, but with higher spring rates similar to the Slee 4". Make this available with Bilstein oem replacement shocks, or as an upgrade for the more serious offroad crowd - carefully selected Bilstein shocks (possibly with eye to eye adapters) to get maximum articulation, but the quality of product and ride that Bilstein is known for. This might require having shocks custom valved similar to the Bilstein oem replacement shocks to handle the weight of the 80. Keep the lift low enough to minimize the risk of driveshaft vibrations, and offer a couple caster correction bushings in addition to the one available from OME. That way people can install the lift, have caster measured, and then order the bushing with the proper degree of correction for their particular truck. So many people comment that they enjoyed their truck the most when it was on a basic OME lift. It increased the vehicle's capability a lot, but kept the cost and commitment reasonable. Once they went higher things started getting out of hand, and that's what starts to limit your market. Keep it simple, but capable to build your customer base. Then get crazy from there.

OME is popular because they have a package that works. That's not to say that it couldn't be significantly improved on.
I truly wish Slee offered this, but I'll request it from you as well.
Thanks for listening.

Exactly.

 

[Land Speeder]

Frankie,
I recently parted out 2 fj 80's a 93 and a 94.

Wow, didn't know you had a 93 to part out. Must be storing it's parts in another location than the 94 huh? So can I buy the tierods off of that one then?

ome J springs and L shocks, If you need anything let me know if i don't have it i can get it for you as i have access to a ton of 80 parts suppliers.

So the J lift came from the 93? Since the 94 had 2.5" heavy lift on it... otherwise it would have been sold to more than one person by now. Why not just advertise it as what it is?... It sells better that way!

 

[ROCKCLMBR 7]

Eric,
the 93 was stock and not running when i parted it out. and yes, you can HAVE the tie rod and Drag link from that one just because you are that cool of a guy HAHAHA!! I would have said that sooner but mark heckle told me that you guys fixed your bent one but you are still welcome to mine if you need it. JUst let me know. BTW PM me your phone number as i seem to have lost it when i switched phones.
later, matt

 

[sleeoffroad]

To be honest, I think a kit that would sell, and perhaps fund the more radical kit, is not the crazy big stuff, but a 2.5" kit that doesn't get into driveline angle issues or anything else, but has suspension travel properly set to run 35's and runs stiffer coils than OME.

OK, I do not get this. 2.5" lifts does not get into driveline angle issues. Does not matter what else you need.

To run true 35's (not 315's) with 2.5" of lift you need to bumpstop the the truck to avoid rubbing.

In this case rubbing is defined as not touching the body, flare or any other part. Not the inner fender nothing. When you talk to some people you get the story that "oh, it does not rub" then you ask them what those marks are on the inner fender, then they say " Oh, that doesn't matter". True, but if you say it does not rub, it should not rub.

Rubbing can only be checked by the owner but it depends on tires, wheels, spacers etc, flares are not removed etc.

So when you say, you need to set the travel up properly for 35" tires with 2.5" of lift, we should first check for clearance as pointed out above. Once that is done, we can choose the shock. To do that, we are concerned with overcompressing the shock, so here is some information on that.


The 80 is approx 19" of space between the front top and bottom shock mount with the axle on the bump stop. The rear is approx 17".

So here are some specs for Bilstein shocks.

8" Travel - Extended 22.2" Collapsed 14.21"
10" Travel- Extended 25.7" Collapsed 16.10"
12" Travel - Extended 31.1" Collapsed 19.53

These shocks all require shock adapters. So with 1.25" on each end for the front and 1.25" on tha back, we have now reduced the inter-mouting distance to 16.5" for the front and 14.75" on the rear. Take into account that the inter-mount spacing was done until the axle touched the bumpstop and did not take any deforming of the rubber into account. Once can easily loose another 1" to 2" with compression of the bumpstops.

So we need the following bumpstops.

Front available = 16.5"
Rear available = 14.75"

8" Travel - 14.21" Compressed
Front - None
Rear - None
Effective Travel
Front - 8"
Rear - 8"


10" Travel - 16.1" Compressed
Front - 0.4" Needed
Rear - 1.35" Needed
Effective Travel
Front - 9.6"
Rear - 8.65"


12" Travel - 19.53" Compressed
Front - 3.03" Needed
Rear - 3.78" Needed
Effective Travel
Front - 8.97"
Rear - 8.22"

Remember nose of this takes the rubber deflection of the bumpstop into account.

So how does this compare with OME

N73 - Ext - 24.2" - Compressed - 13.9" - 10.3" travel
N73L - Ext 26.2" - Compressed - 15.2" - 11" travel
N74E - Ext - 24.4" - Compressed - 14.6" - 9.8" Travel
N74L - Ext -26.3" - Compressed - 15.2" - 11.1" Travel

However when you run OME, since the bolt in directly, the available space is:

Front - 19"
Rear - 17"

Since the collapsed lenghts of these shocks are shorter than the actual available space, we should not need bumpstops. So your effective travel is the full travel of the shock.

So what has all this proven?

Fitting "long travel shocks" with shock adapters does not gain you much. The only way to get more travel is to increase the available space for the shock and not run bumpstop.

OK, now why do we supply bumpstops? To take into account the defection of the rubber on the bumpstops in the worst case of jumping the truck or fully flexing it out.

So my question is, how do you improve the travel for 35" over OME?

People regularly report that moving from OME to a taller Slee lift improved road performance, so what are we missing in the simple spring/shock 2.5" kit that is the heart of the 80 series aftermarket?

The reason for this is that OME 850 and 863 (J or not) does not perform well when you stick spacers on them and the truck is taller. The leverage on the spring is increase and people experience more b body roll in corners. That is why we increased the rate. For 2.5" it does not matter that miuch. Also OME springs can be chosen for a level truck. One thing that I will give you is that there might be place for another front spring, that is a little taller than the 850's with a little more spring rate.


I am starting to sound like Sumotoy and Walking Eagle

 

[SUMOTOY]

I am starting to sound like Sumotoy and Walking Eagle

What, no pics? You may sound like the boys, but you either have to cut some cardboard, or draw pretty pictures with subliminal messages.

Good info. Thanks Christo. If using the stock suspension, isn't the first interference to articulation going to be the swaybars anyhow? Then isn't the real choice that if you plan on swapping to longer shocks, you already have to have ditched the bars?

If that's true, then to get the same ride, you have to increase effective spring rate, by spring rate. Which may put you right back to reducing articulation?

SJ

 

[sleeoffroad]

If using the stock suspension, isn't the first interference to articulation going to be the swaybars anyhow? Then isn't the real choice that if you plan on swapping to longer shocks, you already have to have ditched the bars?

Swaybar on a 80 does not limit the articulation when staying with 6" or less. They do make the truck more unstable when crossed up. A 80 without swaybars wheels a ton better in the rocks than one with it.

When you go taller than 6" it becomes difficult to keep them on the truck and not rip the mounts out, break the linkages etc.

 

[Darwood]

Thanks Christo, those numbers are great.

I've wondered for quite a while the distance bewteen the shock mounts under full compression. Using these numbers it should be feasable then to use the Bilstein 7100 AK7112SB's, which have 12" of travel with extension and compression lengths of 28.06" and 16.03" respectively while retaining the stock mounting points.

 

[Walking Eagle]

These shocks all require shock adapters. So with 1.25" on each end for the front and 1.25" on tha back, we have now reduced the inter-mouting distance to 16.5" for the front and 14.75" on the rear. Take into account that the inter-mount spacing was done until the axle touched the bumpstop and did not take any deforming of the rubber into account. Once can easily loose another 1" to 2" with compression of the bumpstops.

So we need the following bumpstops.

Front available = 16.5"
Rear available = 14.75"

8" Travel - 14.21" Compressed
Front - None
Rear - None
Effective Travel
Front - 8"
Rear - 8"


10" Travel - 16.1" Compressed
Front - 0.4" Needed
Rear - 1.35" Needed
Effective Travel
Front - 9.6"
Rear - 8.65"


12" Travel - 19.53" Compressed
Front - 3.03" Needed
Rear - 3.78" Needed
Effective Travel
Front - 8.97"
Rear - 8.22"

Remember nose of this takes the rubber deflection of the bumpstop into account.

Slee - What is keeping those shocks from fully extending?

 

[frankies off road]

Slee - What is keeping those shocks from fully extending?

RADIUS arm binding...and rear sway bar...



PEEK AT A BUMPER IN THE WORKS

 

[Walking Eagle]

RADIUS arm binding...and rear sway bar...



PEEK AT A BUMPER IN THE WORKS

Those might keep them from articulating, but not from fully extending.

I'm also not buying that you don't need to lower bump stops with L's, since OME says you have to, I think 1.25" in the front and .75" in the rear, or maybe I have that switched - it's somewhere on Slee's site.

 

[frankies off road]

Those might keep them from articulating, but not from fully extending.

I'm also not buying that you don't need to lower bump stops with L's, since OME says you have to, I think 1.25" in the front and .75" in the rear, or maybe I have that switched - it's somewhere on Slee's site.

so your saying at full droop like on a 2 post lift ?]


I never said anything about not using bump stop's with L shocks? or is that directed at someone else ?

 

[Walking Eagle]

so your saying at full droop like on a 2 post lift ?]

Sure - that's one way to look at it. I'm just wondering why Slee cut the extension short on the non-post shocks, but not on the post OME shocks. If it's binding of the arms and swaybars, it's going to happen with either shock mount type.

I never said anything about not using bump stop's with L shocks? or is that directed at someone else ?

That was directed at Slee's comment -

So how does this compare with OME

N73 - Ext - 24.2" - Compressed - 13.9" - 10.3" travel
N73L - Ext 26.2" - Compressed - 15.2" - 11" travel
N74E - Ext - 24.4" - Compressed - 14.6" - 9.8" Travel
N74L - Ext -26.3" - Compressed - 15.2" - 11.1" Travel

However when you run OME, since the bolt in directly, the available space is:

Front - 19"
Rear - 17"

Since the collapsed lenghts of these shocks are shorter than the actual available space, we should not need bumpstops. So your effective travel is the full travel of the shock.

while on his site it has a quote from OME, that I stole for another thread

"OME850J/OME863J coils and N73L/N74L shocks should be installed together, although they do not comprise a kit. Fitment of N73L/N74L shocks requires mandatory installation of .75" (20mm) Front and 1.25" (30mm) rear bump stop spacers to the front and rear suspension to prevent shock absorbers from bottoming out under full compression. These bump stop spacers are not available from OME and will need to be sourced from the installer."

I was saying in that other thread that there was still 1.25 and .75" of untapped potential in the shocks when using 2" bump stop spacers. And Slee's response was:

Man, there is a lot of info in this thread. Just wanted to point out two things. Heath the above is true in the theoretical sense, however the rubber on the bumpstops compress and trail pressure on bumpstops are generally different to the ramp testing we do. We went with 2" to provide a safety gap.

Just seems a skewed comparision. If you really need the bumpstops on L's, as OME says ("manditory"), and Slee says for full flex/jumps, when the bumpstop compresses, then that's what aught to be compared.

 

[sleeoffroad]

The comparison I wrote was with the axles just touching the bump stops. Not compressing them. That way we could compare apples with apples with different shocks.

The comment I made re: the bumpstops compressing is just common sense. I did not want to cloud the measurements comparison that I wrote with compression of the bump stops. I did however comment on that in the thread as well.

As for the quote on the site, it is from OME. The assumption is that the OME springs on an 80 are the optimized length and reaches full compression on the truck. So making that longer, we would have to add bump stops to make sure we do not over compress the springs.

That said, I am not sure if OME allowed for a safety margin in desiging the shocks to make sure they are not over compressed.

 

[Land Speeder]

PEEK AT A BUMPER IN THE WORKS

Looks Good.
Hmm, what about a tubed bumper for the back? You can even use my 80 as a guinea pig too!

 

[Walking Eagle]

The comparison I wrote was with the axles just touching the bump stops. Not compressing them. That way we could compare apples with apples with different shocks.

I don't think you are comparing apples to apples since you're not letting the other shocks fully extend - that was the real question I was after 1st.

As for the quote on the site, it is from OME. The assumption is that the OME springs on an 80 are the optimized length and reaches full compression on the truck. So making that longer, we would have to add bump stops to make sure we do not over compress the springs.

I said the quote was from OME - we agree on that

ok. So are the bumpstops added to not over compress the springs or the shocks? Since I don't expect you to know what OME was thinking, how about on your 4 and 6" set-ups? I can think of 3 reasons for lowering bump stops.

1. Longer springs that would over compress.

2. Longer shocks that would bottom out.

3. Larger tires that you want to keep from rubbing.

That said, I am not sure if OME allowed for a safety margin in desiging the shocks to make sure they are not over compressed.

The OME disclaimer comes from the a

Either you ended the post early, or you're indicating a piece of anatomy. I'd guess that OME, recomending L's and J's together with said bump stop spacers, is properly accounting for what needs to be accounted for. That's a clumpsy way of saying I tend to believe that OME knows their stuff better than most and would have more faith in what they say than in most mainstream US suspension manufactures in the US. I'd venture to guess they suggest lowering the bumpstops due to a limit in the shocks, not on the springs. But that's only a guess.

Edit - I guess it wouldn't have to be a guess if I'd read the dang quote I posted where it said they did it for the shocks!

 

[Nay]

Sure - that's one way to look at it. I'm just wondering why Slee cut the extension short on the non-post shocks, but not on the post OME shocks. If it's binding of the arms and swaybars, it's going to happen with either shock mount type.



That was directed at Slee's comment -




while on his site it has a quote from OME, that I stole for another thread

"OME850J/OME863J coils and N73L/N74L shocks should be installed together, although they do not comprise a kit. Fitment of N73L/N74L shocks requires mandatory installation of .75" (20mm) Front and 1.25" (30mm) rear bump stop spacers to the front and rear suspension to prevent shock absorbers from bottoming out under full compression. These bump stop spacers are not available from OME and will need to be sourced from the installer."

I was saying in that other thread that there was still 1.25 and .75" of untapped potential in the shocks when using 2" bump stop spacers. And Slee's response was:



Just seems a skewed comparision. If you really need the bumpstops on L's, as OME says ("manditory"), and Slee says for full flex/jumps, when the bumpstop compresses, then that's what aught to be compared.

I agree. Those OME specs are not usable travel. You don't get 10" of front end travel on the OME N73's for sure.

Even if you did, I would take 8"-9" of travel on 35's over 9"-10" of travel on 33's. The 35's are worth a lot more on a rig this size than an extra inch of suspension travel at the limits.

Nay

 

[frankies off road]

Looks Good.
Hmm, what about a tubed bumper for the back? You can even use my 80 as a guinea pig too!

That would be nice , i could use another 80 to wheel and test you mind a few dents will ya