Excessive body roll/suspension questions

[AgentOrange]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm on a lot of forums where folks are modifying things with no idea what the ACTUAL performance change is, but lots of claims. People toss larger brakes on cars "look, I found these Audi brakes at the junkyard - my XXX stops so much better now." Uh factory brake systems take months of development by skilled teams of engineers with billion dollar labs, tracks and the like to tune out dangerous behavior. I commonly post "let's go pink slips against my stock XXX through a standard SAE testing regimen and see who wins". In 30 years, nobody's taken me up on it.

Same with offroad suspensions. Crawling uphill, encountering 8" rocks on diagonal opposite corners at 1.5mph. The factory 80 series suspension will allow its suspension to compress in damped fashion and the other two tires will maintain enough ground pressure to maintain grip and you never lose momentum. A modified suspension will cause those two 8" rock corners to compress perhaps 23% slower, causing the other two tires to briefly lose ground pressure and spin, plus the energy required to now essentially lift the entire 80 (vs simply compress two corners) will also nearly bring it to a stop (compressing overdamped springs steals energy from forward movement in a well known formula Toyota engineers yak about over lunch). Wheelspin ensues, momentum lost. Start over or engage the lockers.

The Toyota engineers literally have scales buried in proving ground surfaces to collect this data and make the 80 great. It's why in stock form they are legends and blew magazine reviewers away. 40 years ago, I still recall a day at the GM Proving Grounds we were driving cars across high speed scales at max braking to determine if we had the F/R brake system force split correct. With a driver only. Then with full GVW. With cold brakes. With hot brakes. Cornering. With the water truck soaking the track again at GVW/cold brakes/hot brakes. And the scales in the track were glass so we also took high speed photography of the tire contact patch shapes to see when we had hydroplaning on the lightly loaded rear tires. Wet/dry/max GVW, data on EACH tire's downforce to the ounce as the vehicle passed at 20mph. 40mph. 60mph. That was just one test for one piece of crap GM platform to give you perspective on how a Billion dollar vehicle platform is developed.

I mention this so you'll envision what went into your 80 from the factory. Toyota is world class - way more resources and engineer dedication than GM. Plus the 80 was a "pinnacle" vehicle for Toyota. They lavished attention on its development. And you have no idea that the vehicle you now own and modified is actually LESS competent over rough terrain, takes 20% longer to stop, will roll over in an emergency evasive maneuver, rattles your fillings on your commute to work, and sways needlessly on every curve and road undulation. An 80 Series engineer would ride in your truck for 10 minutes, get out and walk away disgusted at the unrefined, dangerous and incompetent vehicle they just experienced.

It pains me to watch all the modifications. It's kind of like paying $100k for the recipe that won the prime rib contest in the world's largest contest with the world's best chefs as tough and demanding judges. Then adding your favorite BBQ sauce. And a pinch of horseradish. A dash of salt. You get the picture.

To each their own, I say - truly. Make these girls your own. But I thought it worth sharing some perspective. Off the soapbox (again - heh...)

They would hate mine then

 

[ICY80]

Front or rear axle?

Front sway bar factory mount welded to the axle

 

[CharlieS]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm on a lot of forums where folks are modifying things with no idea what the ACTUAL performance change is, but lots of claims. People toss larger brakes on cars "look, I found these Audi brakes at the junkyard - my XXX stops so much better now." Uh factory brake systems take months of development by skilled teams of engineers with billion dollar labs, tracks and the like to tune out dangerous behavior. I commonly post "let's go pink slips against my stock XXX through a standard SAE testing regimen and see who wins". In 30 years, nobody's taken me up on it.

Same with offroad suspensions. Crawling uphill, encountering 8" rocks on diagonal opposite corners at 1.5mph. The factory 80 series suspension will allow its suspension to compress in damped fashion and the other two tires will maintain enough ground pressure to maintain grip and you never lose momentum. A modified suspension will cause those two 8" rock corners to compress perhaps 23% slower, causing the other two tires to briefly lose ground pressure and spin, plus the energy required to now essentially lift the entire 80 (vs simply compress two corners) will also nearly bring it to a stop (compressing overdamped springs steals energy from forward movement in a well known formula Toyota engineers yak about over lunch). Wheelspin ensues, momentum lost. Start over or engage the lockers.

The Toyota engineers literally have scales buried in proving ground surfaces to collect this data and make the 80 great. It's why in stock form they are legends and blew magazine reviewers away. 40 years ago, I still recall a day at the GM Proving Grounds we were driving cars across high speed scales at max braking to determine if we had the F/R brake system force split correct. With a driver only. Then with full GVW. With cold brakes. With hot brakes. Cornering. With the water truck soaking the track again at GVW/cold brakes/hot brakes. And the scales in the track were glass so we also took high speed photography of the tire contact patch shapes to see when we had hydroplaning on the lightly loaded rear tires. Wet/dry/max GVW, data on EACH tire's downforce to the ounce as the vehicle passed at 20mph. 40mph. 60mph. That was just one test for one piece of crap GM platform to give you perspective on how a Billion dollar vehicle platform is developed.

I mention this so you'll envision what went into your 80 from the factory. Toyota is world class - way more resources and engineer dedication than GM. Plus the 80 was a "pinnacle" vehicle for Toyota. They lavished attention on its development. And you have no idea that the vehicle you now own and modified is actually LESS competent over rough terrain, takes 20% longer to stop, will roll over in an emergency evasive maneuver, rattles your fillings on your commute to work, and sways needlessly on every curve and road undulation. An 80 Series engineer would ride in your truck for 10 minutes, get out and walk away disgusted at the unrefined, dangerous and incompetent vehicle they just experienced.

It pains me to watch all the modifications. It's kind of like paying $100k for the recipe that won the prime rib contest in the world's largest contest with the world's best chefs as tough and demanding judges. Then adding your favorite BBQ sauce. And a pinch of horseradish. A dash of salt. You get the picture.

To each their own, I say - truly. Make these girls your own. But I thought it worth sharing some perspective. Off the soapbox (again - heh...)

You are right of course.

I don't have the credentials to debate with you. I will lose every time.

Then again everything about the Toyota Production System and engineering philosophy is about finding the right tradeoffs for the intended uses, not finding perfection for all variables.

I strongly suspect that *if* toyota engineers were optimizing for offroad, I suspect we'd get a different 80 (one perhaps more like what toyota autobody runs in Dakar than the ones we buy for street use).

But that is my opinion, not based on facts from working at manufacturers like you did.

 

[PNWGERMAN]

A thicker sway bar would help a lot just like everyone ells has said.

You are right of course.

I don't have the credentials to debate with you. I will lose every time.

Then again everything about the Toyota Production System and engineering philosophy is about finding the right tradeoffs for the intended uses, not finding perfection for all variables.

I strongly suspect that *if* toyota engineers were optimizing for offroad, I suspect we'd get a different 80 (one perhaps more like what toyota autobody runs in Dakar than the ones we buy for street use).

But that is my opinion, not based on facts from working at manufacturers like you did.

There is one of these guys on EVERY forum

The "everything stock is better" guy. Classic.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Charlie - you bet. Offroad-only Toyota is quite capable of and it would be completely different. I've driven purpose built race rigs on US streets - vehicles like the Australian Saloon champion, the Audi Gruppe B rally champion, an Ivan Steward full race rig, etc as I carried NHTSA/DOT waivers in my wallet. Needless to say you get back from running an errand and your kidneys hurt, and your ears ring for a half hour - heh.

PNW - there's also someone like you on every forum, also. The new guy who fails to appreciate that someone with experience and deep knowledge takes the time to share that with the forum, but chooses to take a cheap shot for reasons known only to himself. Usually a verson of insecurity most men are familar with. I drove the first 80 series prototype in the USA when you were in diapers, and have owned 80s ever since. If you think that somehow diminishes me from being useful, I suspect there are a few old timers here who'd tell you to keep your opinions to your self if they are designed to minimize others.

 

[dallen341]

I wonder how many of us make modifications and due to daily driving and getting used to how the rig handles, convince ourselves of how good the rig behaves.

I know I am guilty. Had a spring over 60 on 35's with no sway bars. Daily drove for years and was used to how it handled to the point that my steering input to correct poor behavior of the 60 was engrained. Stopped daily driving and on a trip into Death Valley I was all aver the road to the point one of the guys in the group asked if I was OK. I was OK, but lost the touch/feel of how to compensate for a poor handling rig.

 

[ICY80]

Getting HEATED up in here lol. Enjoyed reading!
Back to the main topic of the forum that I started.
Me and my buddy fab’d up some new links for the front and welded them last night. Re connected the front sway bar and now it's much better of course. LCphil rear links are ordered so I can mount up my white line upgraded rear sway bar. Orda make an even bigger difference in body roll. After my big trip it’s time to do castor corrections.

YES I went overkill with the mounts but….. it’s MINE!!
Sucker won’t break

Pics of the factory mount vs what we made. Cheers.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Another sexy severe duty product from Land Cruiser Products. Available on our website.

 

[surfpig]

Front sway bar factory mount welded to the axle

Those little tabs are stupid.

 

[surfpig]

Another sexy severe duty product from Land Cruiser Products. Available on our website.

View attachment 3662970

View attachment 3662971

This is exactly what I did right here some years ago. Probably LandTank ones though. Getting the bolts secure is a bitch though.

Quick story about handling and such without the sway bars, especially if you're not used to its handling characteristics...

I got all packed up for a Rubicon trip and said, I'll just take them off at home and gingerly drive myself to the trail (shortish drive for me). I hopped on the freeway and went about three miles, turned around and put them back on! LOL

 

[Squeegee]

Here’s my experience with dealing with body roll. For starters, caster correction is your friend for every circumstance. For reference I’m running about 5 degrees of caster. Once you handle that, you can really tackle the rest of the issues you might have with 3 things:

1. Sway bars: these work great for controlling the body. What they do is in the name, rad. Bigger = less sway but it can attribute to a worse ride over chop and chatter since it will inhibit the axle from moving. I have a 7/8” antirock in the front and the stock bar in the rear for reference. Some people like whiteline bars, for my application, I didn’t think it would be the right move.

2. Low speed compression. Low speed compression can help control the suspension around corners, on soft g outs, … ya know slow stuff. Slowing the axle down as it comes up into the wheel well will the result in the body staying flatter around corners. The issue is, that the more you slow it down the more it’s going to rattle your teeth out over most things. I have Fox DSCs in the front and dobinsons MRAs in the rear and I just twisted the knobs until I found a happy medium. There’s some sway, but it also rides nice enough over chop, bumps in the road, random stuff like that

3. suspension geometry. The rear panhard is the easiest to fix so start there. A $100 pack from eimkeith is what I used and I’m happy with the results. You can do high steer and move the axle end of panhard up. (big pain in the ass, do this if nothing else works). Lastly, if you still hate it, you can design your own suspension so if you don’t like it you can only blame yourself

Oh yeah, adding stiffer springs is not the move. If it’s the ride height you want. Keep it. Tall stiff springs usually mean a bad ride, tall ride height, and little uptravel. Short stiff springs usually mean a bad ride, good right height, and little uptravel

 

[IdahoDoug]

Squeegee,

I'm going to apologize in advance for refuting nearly everything you just typed. We're brothers in the Cruiser bond, so please understand it's my desire for accurate information, not a desire to put you down. All of what you just wrote is hogwash, and exactly the kind of incorrect "internet lore" suspension information that makes me crazy. My replies inside of these parentheses "{ }"

Here’s my experience with dealing with body roll. For starters, caster correction is your friend for every circumstance. For reference I’m running about 5 degrees of caster. Once you handle that, you can really tackle the rest of the issues you might have with 3 things: {caster has absolutely zero to do with body roll. You could set caster at 0 degrees, 5 degrees, or 30 degrees and it will not affect body roll}

1. Sway bars: these work great for controlling the body. What they do is in the name, rad. Bigger = less sway but it can attribute to a worse ride over chop and chatter since it will inhibit the axle from moving. I have a 7/8” antirock in the front and the stock bar in the rear for reference. Some people like whiteline bars, for my application, I didn’t think it would be the right move. {Sway bars were literally developed as a clever way NOT to inhibit the axle from moving, as the entire bar simply swivels without being twisted when the axle goes straight up and down such as chatter/dirt road ripples. It's only when either the vehicle is leaning or cornering that the vehicle must twist the sway bar, which has the desired effect of preventing lean/sway and leveling the vehicle out. Your 80 came from the factory with sway bars matched such that in emergency maneuvering, it would not severely understeer, or oversteer. Your choice of two different sway bars means that is now an unknown and your Cruiser may be dangerous in an emergency. From my knowledge, if your front bar is stiffer than stock(7/8 sounds thicker), in an emergency the rears will break loose first, causing dangerous oversteer.}

2. Low speed compression. Low speed compression can help control the suspension around corners, on soft g outs, … ya know slow stuff. Slowing the axle down as it comes up into the wheel well will the result in the body staying flatter around corners. The issue is, that the more you slow it down the more it’s going to rattle your teeth out over most things. I have Fox DSCs in the front and dobinsons MRAs in the rear and I just twisted the knobs until I found a happy medium. There’s some sway, but it also rides nice enough over chop, bumps in the road, random stuff like that {All suspensions have low speed compression. In tandem with the other type of damping - rebounding - there is an extremely exacting balance. Too much compression and you don't use all of your travel. Too much rebound and the suspension "stacks" up and cannot recover between bumps, causing easy bottoming. Since you are doing precisely what good suspension design would NEVER do (Brand A on the front, Brand B on the rears), you likely have a suspension that is very far from optimal. You, as an individual with no testing facility or training in suspension design may insist "it's great", but the reality is there is way more potential in your vehicle than what you've done.}

3. suspension geometry. The rear panhard is the easiest to fix so start there. A $100 pack from eimkeith is what I used and I’m happy with the results. You can do high steer and move the axle end of panhard up. (big pain in the ass, do this if nothing else works). Lastly, if you still hate it, you can design your own suspension so if you don’t like it you can only blame yourself {The rear panhard has absolutely nothing to do with body roll. However, since you brought it up, simply moving one end of the panhard up randomly, will guarantee your rear suspension does weird things. The purpose of a panhard is to try to control lateral movement of the axle, and it's ends are located precisely to minimize that during suspension cycles. Randomly moving one end from the factory orientation will absolutely cause the axle to move left or right at or near the upper or lower limits of its travel, rather than seek to minimize it.}

Oh yeah, adding stiffer springs is not the move. If it’s the ride height you want. Keep it. Tall stiff springs usually mean a bad ride, tall ride height, and little uptravel. Short stiff springs usually mean a bad ride, good right height, and little uptravel {Pure internet lore. You can have a spring of varying lengths do the same job. Again - that is part of suspension design at the factory. Design and build specific springs that function correctly. Springs also have a great deal to do with sway, ride quality, and how well the vehicle can use (or not use) its available designed in travel. They must match the suspension geometry, the vehicles weight ranges, its wheel base, its center of gravity, its shock damping, and about 100 other variables that if ignored or not engineered together will result in a poor handling, swaying, bouncing inefficient suspension system.}

Again - not trying to be an @ss here, but your post was center of mass as an example of the state of people's dangerous home suspension ideas. If we were sitting around a campfire without the limits of a keyboard, that would have sounded less uppity, less harsh, more informative, and like a mutual discussion, and I'd have preferred that greatly.

 

[Squeegee]

Squeegee,

I'm going to apologize in advance for refuting nearly everything you just typed. We're brothers in the Cruiser bond, so please understand it's my desire for accurate information, not a desire to put you down. All of what you just wrote is hogwash, and exactly the kind of incorrect "internet lore" suspension information that makes me crazy. My replies inside of these parentheses "{ }"

Here’s my experience with dealing with body roll. For starters, caster correction is your friend for every circumstance. For reference I’m running about 5 degrees of caster. Once you handle that, you can really tackle the rest of the issues you might have with 3 things: {caster has absolutely zero to do with body roll. You could set caster at 0 degrees, 5 degrees, or 30 degrees and it will not affect body roll}

1. Sway bars: these work great for controlling the body. What they do is in the name, rad. Bigger = less sway but it can attribute to a worse ride over chop and chatter since it will inhibit the axle from moving. I have a 7/8” antirock in the front and the stock bar in the rear for reference. Some people like whiteline bars, for my application, I didn’t think it would be the right move. {Sway bars were literally developed as a clever way NOT to inhibit the axle from moving, as the entire bar simply swivels without being twisted when the axle goes straight up and down such as chatter/dirt road ripples. It's only when either the vehicle is leaning or cornering that the vehicle must twist the sway bar, which has the desired effect of preventing lean/sway and leveling the vehicle out. Your 80 came from the factory with sway bars matched such that in emergency maneuvering, it would not severely understeer, or oversteer. Your choice of two different sway bars means that is now an unknown and your Cruiser may be dangerous in an emergency. From my knowledge, if your front bar is stiffer than stock(7/8 sounds thicker), in an emergency the rears will break loose first, causing dangerous oversteer.}

2. Low speed compression. Low speed compression can help control the suspension around corners, on soft g outs, … ya know slow stuff. Slowing the axle down as it comes up into the wheel well will the result in the body staying flatter around corners. The issue is, that the more you slow it down the more it’s going to rattle your teeth out over most things. I have Fox DSCs in the front and dobinsons MRAs in the rear and I just twisted the knobs until I found a happy medium. There’s some sway, but it also rides nice enough over chop, bumps in the road, random stuff like that {All suspensions have low speed compression. In tandem with the other type of damping - rebounding - there is an extremely exacting balance. Too much compression and you don't use all of your travel. Too much rebound and the suspension "stacks" up and cannot recover between bumps, causing easy bottoming. Since you are doing precisely what good suspension design would NEVER do (Brand A on the front, Brand B on the rears), you likely have a suspension that is very far from optimal. You, as an individual with no testing facility or training in suspension design may insist "it's great", but the reality is there is way more potential in your vehicle than what you've done.}

3. suspension geometry. The rear panhard is the easiest to fix so start there. A $100 pack from eimkeith is what I used and I’m happy with the results. You can do high steer and move the axle end of panhard up. (big pain in the ass, do this if nothing else works). Lastly, if you still hate it, you can design your own suspension so if you don’t like it you can only blame yourself {The rear panhard has absolutely nothing to do with body roll. However, since you brought it up, simply moving one end of the panhard up randomly, will guarantee your rear suspension does weird things. The purpose of a panhard is to try to control lateral movement of the axle, and it's ends are located precisely to minimize that during suspension cycles. Randomly moving one end from the factory orientation will absolutely cause the axle to move left or right at or near the upper or lower limits of its travel, rather than seek to minimize it.}

Oh yeah, adding stiffer springs is not the move. If it’s the ride height you want. Keep it. Tall stiff springs usually mean a bad ride, tall ride height, and little uptravel. Short stiff springs usually mean a bad ride, good right height, and little uptravel {Pure internet lore. You can have a spring of varying lengths do the same job. Again - that is part of suspension design at the factory. Design and build specific springs that function correctly. Springs also have a great deal to do with sway, ride quality, and how well the vehicle can use (or not use) its available designed in travel. They must match the suspension geometry, the vehicles weight ranges, its wheel base, its center of gravity, its shock damping, and about 100 other variables that if ignored or not engineered together will result in a poor handling, swaying, bouncing inefficient suspension system.}

Again - not trying to be an @ss here, but your post was center of mass as an example of the state of people's dangerous home suspension ideas. If we were sitting around a campfire without the limits of a keyboard, that would have sounded less uppity, less harsh, more informative, and like a mutual discussion, and I'd have preferred that greatly.

You’re correct but also incorrect. To start I’m totally going to acknowledge that I have my my Land Cruiser less safe. The second you modify a car you stray away from all of the beautiful engineering that’s been done, so no surprise there. At the end of the day, we’re working with a modified car. The design and performance goals of the engineers who designed the car have kind of been thrown out the window. The principles are the same and we can strive to adhere to them, but this is not an apples to apples comparison to a stock car. Outside of having the OP return his car to factory spec. I’m sure that you’re well aware that your own modifications to your 80 have also made it perform worse and be less safe. All of us are playing the pros and cons game of modifying a car. At the end of the day, I’m trying my best to make something that can road safely and do trails that I like.

Caster does not have anything to do with body roll. But he should probably fix his first before dealing with his other issues.

So not all sway bars are the same as I’m sure you’re aware. Of course a sway bar doesn’t inhibit linear travel, but that’s not what we’re taking about if we’re dealing with body roll. If I put a 1.5” thick sway bar in the front. The axle will in fact move less under articulation due to the added force required to twist the bar. . Yes the 80 came with one from the factory, yes I changed it. No the rear bar is actually thicker by about an 8th. Yes the car understeers

Mixing brands is kind of a moot point. Brands are meaningless. I can get a set of kings and put a fox piston in it… doesn’t really matter. Adjustable suspension is nice (low spend compression, high speed compression, and rebound) because well… it’s adjustable. Does that give me the opportunity to make it ride worse? Of course, am I taking the time to develop it until it’s acceptable for me, yes. Does it ride better and hit whoops better than the factory twin tubes? Yes. Can you add in low speed compression to inhibit body roll, yes. I do it on road trips

The rear panhard has a lot to due with body roll. Yes is controls the lateral movement of the axle but it also determines the roll center for a parallel 4 link. If it’s closer to the center of gravity, you will have less body roll. Raising the axle side pickup for the panhard both raises the roll center and flattens the bar at ride height. Having it flat at half travel is better but we take what we can get. It also induces more understeer but I have a preference to that, so I call it a win

Yes you can have springs of varying length do the same job. But the rate in conjunction with its free height will determine ride height. And if you have a 400lb spring with a 20” free height on a car that weighs 4000lbs it’s ganna be tall and ride terribly but itll corner flat I guess. If he has the ride height he wants and it doesn’t ride terribly, I say leave it .

You are correct and your points are valid. Modifying a car will make it perform worse and largely become less safe. But I don’t think that’s a fatal flaw and neither do you, since you also have modified your car

 

[BucketEighty]

@Squeegee has some great points. Once you lift the truck and extend the bump stops, it’s good practice to raise the rear panhard bar axle side bracket. He’s also correct that this will raise the roll center and will flatten the bar back out to reduce lateral rear axle motion during cycling. Obviously the design is suboptimal and inferior to the design at factory ride height, but if you’re committed to being lifted you should try and make the right corrections to minimize the bad side effects.

Also correct that increased low speed compression damping will reduce body roll. Gotta buy some high end shocks to get these adjustments available to you, and you gotta take the time to test and dial in your settings.

Also correct that castor does not affect body roll but should absolutely be corrected to improve tracking, and steering return to center. Drop brackets for castor correction have the added benefit of reducing roll steer. Insufficient castor, excessive body roll, and roll steer all together are a dangerous combination common on lifted 80’s. The drop brackets sacrifice some ground clearance under the arms and at the frame brackets in exchange for closer to factory castor and roll steer. @IdahoDoug is clearly recommending returning to factory ride height, which will greatly improve safety and handling. My 80 has old man emu factory ride height replacement springs and shocks which yield ~1/2” lift and better handle the weight of my winch bumper and I’m not lifted more for all the reasons @IdahoDoug suggests. I also can’t take the 80 on some trails because of my lower clearance and smaller tires.

In my earlier post I suggested choosing your ride height first, and tuning from there. @Squeegee assumed that the OP intends to keep the current lifted ride height and that’s totally valid and can be made safe enough for a wheeling truck with the right mods.

Also the OP was driving around with no front swaybar and didn’t know it when this thread was started. Repairing the swaybar mounts and reconnecting the front swaybar will make the truck much safer and more pleasant to drive.

As to swaybar effect on oversteer vs understeer I would need to consult my (currently missing) vehicle dynamics book. I thought more swaybar in the front made for more understeer and more swaybar in the rear made for more oversteer. I know my TJ used to understeer with the front swaybar connected and oversteer with it disconnected. My 80 understeers with the factory sway bars and aforementioned OME factory height springs and shocks. I wouldn’t mind getting a little less understeer from a heavier rear swaybar.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Squeegee - good stuff, and your further explanation I think is the depth of help people should get in dealing with something that can kill you if done improperly - suspension set up on a lifted vehicle. I appreciate the added time there.

Bucket - I also would have to consult mine but I think you are correct about the sway bar affect (front bar causes front to wash out/understeer). Heck, I"m not even sure I kept that stuff!!

On a further note, I took my 80 for a spin today and found a Chevron receipt for the last time it moved - October, 2023 when I filled it for the winter. It's been a crazy few months after a winter so mild I never needed the Cruiser and I only moved it to rotate the SunRader project so I could work on the other side. Then, I found a few errands to run since I hate starting a vehicle and not bringing it up to full temp and such. Wedding for our daugher in 4 weeks, just finished replacing the rear deck I tore out last Fall, etc. After the wedding, I'm taking the 80 out to the woods for a nice solo weekend!

Cheers.

 

[PNWGERMAN]

Charlie - you bet. Offroad-only Toyota is quite capable of and it would be completely different. I've driven purpose built race rigs on US streets - vehicles like the Australian Saloon champion, the Audi Gruppe B rally champion, an Ivan Steward full race rig, etc as I carried NHTSA/DOT waivers in my wallet. Needless to say you get back from running an errand and your kidneys hurt, and your ears ring for a half hour - heh.

PNW - there's also someone like you on every forum, also. The new guy who fails to appreciate that someone with experience and deep knowledge takes the time to share that with the forum, but chooses to take a cheap shot for reasons known only to himself. Usually a verson of insecurity most men are familar with. I drove the first 80 series prototype in the USA when you were in diapers, and have owned 80s ever since. If you think that somehow diminishes me from being useful, I suspect there are a few old timers here who'd tell you to keep your opinions to your self if they are designed to minimize others.

I'm sorry if I insulted you or hurt your feelings in some way. Honestly didn't mean to, but I can see how it could be taken that way. So I apologize.
Lets be honest with our selves here. Every vehicle forum has its stereotypical members, and we all fall into a generalized stereotype slot some where. Have a laugh with us and don't get bent out of shape because some one made a little joke about you online. People that can laugh at them selves and take a joke are much more enjoyable people to be around. And if your going to call me insecure for making that joke, what does getting butt hurt about my harmless jape say about your insecurity? Your opinions aren't useless, you obviously have a lifetime of knowledge and opinions that are valuable.

Not everyone wants what you want out of your ride, and there in is your issue. You think you have figured out the perfect LC and there for everyone should do what you have done. But you have only figured out whats perfect for you and your needs. Everyone is different and requires or wants different things from their ride, and whats good for you isn't necessarily good for everyone ells.

This is my first experience with Landcruisers, but it is by fare not my first Toyota as I've owned and worked on 4 from an '87 extended cab truck to a '17 Tacoma. That's not counting all the Toyotas I've driven and worked on for family and friends. I also have owned and worked on many other cars and driven them on a casual competitive level. I've driven lots of different kinds of vehicles from stock to track prepped. I may not be as long in the tooth as you, but I'm also not an 18 year old with my first car ether. I'm here to gain further knowledge from people like you. None of us are ever done learning till the day we die.

As I have modified many cars I understand your point to an extent. But I also disagree with you.

When an automotive manufacturer designs, engineers, and builds a vehicle, it's a process filled with compromise. The process starts with some one that has a bright idea to build, lets say in this case, the worlds best factory built 4x4 SUV. So he takes it to the higher ups. Then the compromise starts. A purpose built off roader is not going to be great on road, and of cores the goal is to sell this vehicle to as many people as possible, not just hard core off roaders. So then changes have to be made to the original design to make it something a mom feels comfortable driving to the mall. It also needs to meet government crash test standards and other requirements, so more compromises are made there. Then corporate gets involved and starts making cuts because after all they have to make a profit at the end of the day. By the time everyone has had their say, the design has become very watered down.

So this is why people modify their cars. Because factory OEM cars are built to make everyone happy, which means many people don't get exactly what they wanted. So you get your factory spec 4x4, drive it stock for a while to get used to it and evaluate what you'd like to change or improve, and go from there. A jack of all trades is fine, but its not great at specialty tasks. It does everything just fine. Like a Swiss army knife. But some of us want a rock crawler, while others want a long distance camper rig, or maybe a twin turbo 2UZ sand dune climber. The guy that started this thread wants a LC he can drive on the road, but is more skewed in the direction of off road travel and camping. So keeping it stock isn't an option for him, he has different needs and different values and priorities than you have.

Another resin for modifications is to keep the car relevant and up to date with modern sensibilities and needs. Like a rear view camera and 7" touch screen Airplay head unit, or even an engine swap with a newer motor and trans that will give you more usable power and better gearing and make the car more usable, and enjoyable. Maybe even make it a bit safer when you're trying to pass an 18 wheeler, up hill, on the freeway. I know I don't try that with my 3FE.

This thread is also a great example of the modification game, and trying to keep a car some what balanced in its performance. Like building a sports car. You cant add 700hp and expect the stock tires, brakes, and suspension to handle the power, and keep you safe. One modification, in the case of this thread, added weight above the center of balance, means he has to add further modifications to re-balance the performance of the car. In this case a sway bar is a great choice for him.

 

[IdahoDoug]

PNW,

Agree, and no worries on offending me! Heh - if we were sitting around a campfire it would have been a great conversation and we'd have both said things in real time - a far better way to discuss. You are correct about mods. My (mild) beef about suspension mods is that nearly any change will produce a LandCruiser that can roll more easily on the road - which is 99.5% of people's miles (vs a full on challenging trail that would stop a stock 80). The modified suspension vehicle will also ride poorly on the road. I feel people should be aware of these things and take it seriously. So when I write about them, I like to be clear about my background and what I know from the perspective of a factory developing a car so people who read it and are thinking about a lift will give it due consideration against the 99% bandwidth which is usually "join the lift club - jump in, the water's fine".

Cheers!!

 

[lexustruck]

@IdahoDoug, thoughts on those helper bags people put in their rear springs?