Engine knock

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well doug I don't buy that the years thing is a coincidence. If carbon was the sole cause we should be hearing from more 93-94 owners than 95-97. you should try running your 97 and your 93 up a steep sand hill and see if either knock :D I'll do it with riley next chance I get.
 
Simon,

Drag yer arse to Lake Powell and we can test in the original Greek......:flipoff2:
 
Wilesy said:
I guess you have a better fuel over your end of the world.... maybe. I think a lot of our fuel is sourced from Malaysia from what I am led to believe.

Here in Oz, our Unleaded is often (By unscrupulous gas station owners) diluted with ethanol, which is pretty cheap, so the gas station owners make a bigger profit.

Therefore, often when the engine pings it is of the result of lower octane fuel because of the dilution.

Many of us here use 97 octane and get better gas mileage from a tank full which eliminates any pinging and works out about the same price in the end.

The pinging we are all talking about is probably not from the result of inadequate fuel, however I just had a thought and thought I would share it, that's all.


Wilesy the BP stations here in QLD are selling 98 octane now. Same up your way?
 
Dan,

I didn't know we could adjust the 95+ model base timing due to the newer electronics. Same procedure - short some pins and use a timing light, or do you need a special tool?

DougM
 
doug i ask the same question as you and i have an example that needs clarification

as shared above earlier in this post i recently had an episode of pinging and i checked timming to find ity at 12' BTDC. I disconected my red batery cable while key was to on (not running of course) and then restatred my lx450 only to find the timing still at 12'. I then adjusted timing with light to 3'. the timing is still at 3' now. shouldn't the timing have gone back to 3' if i had reset the system when i pulled the red cable? so maybe i never did reset the system? so why is it still at 3'? i tried the pin short thing and it never reset the sytem so i did the pull the red cable thing.
 
OZCAL said:
Wilesy the BP stations here in QLD are selling 98 octane now. Same up your way?

Yeah mate,

It's usually called from memory, Shell Optimax.

They are really pushing that fuel and advertise that it is cleaner & gives you more power....

It would want to for $.15 cents per litre more expensive.

I have a (Like everyone here) a 145 litre tank(s) so that costs me an extra $21.75 to fill up....bit rich I think...
 
Well, Im trying Doug's idea for know......couple of tanks of Techron, then Redline. I'll see how things are then.
 
i'm quite sure this has nothing to do with cruisers.. but i know Subaru WRX's would knock/ping if driven on a lower octane gasoline (i.e. California)
 
I set my timing just this afternoon. With the truck off, short the 2 pins in the service plug and set your timing to 3deg. I beleive the electronic advance comes in when you are off idle just as in the older vacuum advances. So shorting those 2 pins is like pulling the vacuum hose on a carburator, just a little insurance that you are reading the base timing. Hope this makes sense.
 
My '97 pings on light throttle (no load) all the time on 87 octane. It's worse now that it's warming up. It's got new factory plugs, dizzy cap, etc. It gets maddening. I need to check my timing (I just don't have a timing light handy right now). So you can add me to the '97 conspiracy theory (but not the grassy knoll...).
 
Rick,

My 97 is running fine, but I may one day need this info and others may now. Could you specify what pins get shorted on the 97 to set the base timing? I've done it on my 93 and have the FSM for that year, but don't have one for the 97 timing procedure. Thank you very much!

BTW, I've advanced my timing on the 93 (from 4 to 7 degrees base timing advance) and it seemed to provide notable advantage. Can the same be done on the 97 to explore any remaining headroom in the engine, or will the newer ECU pull the timing back automatically off idle?

I must say, my 97 feels WAY stronger than my 93 and my seat of the pants seems to give credit to the newer engine electronics. Pulls better at all RPMs. Unsure if any credit is due the 343 gearbox, though..

DougM
 
The 2 pins are TE1 and E1. The base timing is just the mechanical setting of the distributor. The electronics will advance from there as you rev the engine. The issue is if one of the knock sensors sees action it will retard the spark in a huge jump. Both the ping and this resulting retarding rob the engine of power which will most likely happen when you need it the most.

Personally, I'd wouldn't advance the timing from factory spec and run 87 oct.
 
IIRC according to the article on the 80sCool board the computer only sees the amount it advances, not total advance. Supposedly the computer doesn't know where it is starting from.

http://www.safari4x4.com.au/80scool/tech/timing.html

The link doesn't seem to be working right now, so here is a cut and paste from the article.

Ignition timing for the 1FZ-FE 4500cc petrol motor

This modification deviates from the manufacturer's specifications. This is not endorsed by Toyota. You are liable for anything and everything to do with your 80 Series if you modify it.
The twin cam 4500cc 80 Series motor has quite a conservative factory ignition timing spec. Probably due to the fact that they are prone to pinging without the "mechanically barren" driver knowing it. They are built with a knock sensor which retards the ignition timing when it logs a number of knocks in quick succession. The engine ECU does not keep a log of knocking (as opposed to almost anything else to do with the vehicle).
The ECU adjusts the ignition advance relative to the base timing given a number of inputs from other sensors feeding it information. It however has no concept of total advance. This means that with additional advance, the ignition timing retains the additional advance right through the rev range.
You do have the ability to gain some power, especially off the mark and at lower revs as well as better fuel economy by advancing the ignition timing. The quality of fuel however plays an important role in how successful this mod is.
All you will need is a paper clip, an ignition timing light and a 12mm spanner.
Firstly, make sure the engine's at normal operating temperature and that the A/C is off. Connect the timing light to plug lead No 1 and check the ignition timing. It's probably around 10 deg BTDC under normal ECU control.
Switch the engine off, remove the key and locate the ECU service plug. Using the bent paper clip, short out the E1 and TE1 terminals. Confirm that the contact is made by turning the ignition on and on most models, the engine check dash lamp will blink.
Start the engine and check ignition timing (now in service mode). The standard timing is 3deg BTDC and is marked on the timing chain cover. If the timing is unchanged from when you previously checked (around 10 deg) it means that the terminals E1 and TE1 have not be shorted.
Loosen the distributor bolt and advance the timing to 6 or 7 deg (Australian spec. Maybe the same for other countries). Tighten the distributor bolt and check the timing again.
Turn the engine off, remove the key and remove the paper clip. Check the ignition timing again (now under ECU control) and it should read anywhere between 0deg - 16deg BTDC.
Road test paying particular attention to any knocking sounds from the motor with the accelerator floored at ~2,000 rpm. If it does knock, then retard the timing. Knocking or pinging is often affected by the quality of petrol (gas), altitude and/or carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. If it doesn't ping, you can experiment with more advance, however anything over 10 deg BTDC is considered to be a lot for this motor.
If the ignition is over advanced and the knock sensor signals that the timing is to be retarded, then you will actually lose on performance (and economy) since it retards in large steps.
Each engine is different as are fuels from different suppliers. Fuels also vary in quality throughout the year.
When well adjusted, you'll notice the extra power.
 
landtank said:
I actually re-shimmed my valves, plugs, rotor, cap and set my timning and the few times that I pulled into my driveway like before with a little ping seem to be gone. The tuneup parts had 55k on them and the valves were done for the first time since new.

Where did you get the tools for removing and replacing the valve shims? Is that process pretty straight forward once you get into it? The way the FSM reads, it seems like there's a little bit of an art to getting the shims out.

Thanks,
Rookie2
 
I just yanked the cams. You have to do this anyway if the #6 cylinder needs work. With the cams out I had to use a small screw driver and pry the buggers out. The oil under the shim was acting as a seal. I even got a magnet at one point to see if that would work as in the manual and no way were they comming off that way.

After 174666 miles all but 6 shims had worn to the upper limits of the spec. So I ended up moving 3 shims around and ordered 16 new ones. The truck seems quieter as far as the valve train goes. I probably could have left them alone but figured that I was in there that deep so might as well set them up for the next 175k.
 
landtank said:
I just yanked the cams. You have to do this anyway if the #6 cylinder needs work. With the cams out I had to use a small screw driver and pry the buggers out. The oil under the shim was acting as a seal. I even got a magnet at one point to see if that would work as in the manual and no way were they comming off that way.

After 174666 miles all but 6 shims had worn to the upper limits of the spec. So I ended up moving 3 shims around and ordered 16 new ones. The truck seems quieter as far as the valve train goes. I probably could have left them alone but figured that I was in there that deep so might as well set them up for the next 175k.

Okay. Couple more quick questions. Is pulling the cams a pretty big ordeal, with some hidden curve balls, or pretty straight forward? When sizing the shims, I guess you shoot closer to the thicker side of the tolerance, assuming that the shim will wear thinner over time?

Thanks again.
Rookie2
 
Originally Posted by landtank
With the cams out I had to use a small screw driver and pry the buggers out. The oil under the shim was acting as a seal. I even got a magnet at one point to see if that would work as in the manual and no way were they comming off that way.

Use a blow gun in one hand and a shop rag in the other. Point the blow gun at the notch in the lifter bucket where you pried, cover the area with your other hand/rag, a puff from the blow gun will pop the shim into the rag. Take much longer to explain than do! :D
 
Dryfly,
Dougs advice is good.
Couple techron, couple redline.
When I did it I never heard the pinging.
Has only just began to comeback now with the heat.

Aussies,
They put ethanol in our gas aswell. Call it gasohol.
The way I understand it ethanol is used to increase octane. (less ping)
However more ethanol also decreases the overall BTU. (less mpg)

Bill
 
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