Dual Batt Setup needed for winching?

[80t0ylc]

Yeah, should be the same. Isolators have to allow the alternator to sense the battery voltage in some way. Sounds like SurePower does it with your "Main BAttery?".......

Yeah, that's what it looks like to me.

So, it looks like the current thinking for a dedicated winch battery is to just run another starting battery - prolly the biggest (capacity-wise) that you can get?

 

[80t0ylc]

Bump. - Any suggestions for a dedicated winch battery as a secondary off an isolator? Gonna dump my DC next time it ****s out on me.

 

[sandcruiser]

you don't need dual batteries, but when winching on a single battery it is better for the battery to winch briefly, then let the alt charge up the battery (and let the winch, cables, and battery cool) then winch briefly again and repeat

If you do a long, hard pull on a standard battery, it may shorten the battery's lifespan.

Best also to turn off accessories while winching (no stereo, no AC, fans, lights, etc) if possible, to reduce the baseline draw on the alternator. All those little doodads add up to a few amps (or more) that could be powering the winch/battery instead.

 

[80t0ylc]

you don't need dual batteries, but when winching on a single battery it is better for the battery to winch briefly, then let the alt charge up the battery (and let the winch, cables, and battery cool) then winch briefly again and repeat.......

Of course you don't need dual batteries, never implied that. You don't need 4 speeds in the tranny either. 1 forward & 1 reverse will move the car when it needs to move, right? Fuel tank doesn't need 25 gallons, 5 will work, right? See where I'm going? If you've ever made a major fopaw, and need to take several hours to winch your way back to mobility again, with 1 battery, you will understand the reason for a dedicated winch battery. Especially if your engine stalls or you have to shut it off for some reason.

.....If you do a long, hard pull on a standard battery, it may shorten the battery's lifespan.......

Batteries have been discussed in this thread, already. It used to be thought that a deep cycle (DC) battery was the desireable type to have for your winch battery. We're finding out that it's possible that the DC batteries are worse than a regular starter battery on a long pull, or even just regular winching. Long pulls can be necessary in a life saving or bad weather scenerio, where time is of the essence. Hopefully, I won't need a long pull, but it would be better to be prepared for one, than not.

 

[rusty_tlc]

For what I do, and where I go, with my set up, I would only invest in a dedicated battery that would be used to run a fridge to keep my beer cold. Your mileage may vary.

For the life of me I cannot imagine a situation I would get myself in that would require hours of winching. I have a 150' winch cable it takes only a few minutes for the 8274 to pull it in. I've never timed it but it's not a long time, lets say 3 minutes(I think this is a lot longer than it really takes.). 150' every 3 min translates to ;60/3=20, 20X150'=3000'/hour
1 mile = 5280'

I could winch my truck over 1 mile in an hour.

I think I would figure out a way to turn it around and go back the way I came before I would winch forward further into trouble for an hour.

 

[sandcruiser]

I think that the OP was trying to get an idea of how badly he "need" dual batteries. Based on your analogy, I'd say that you feel like having a single battery and a winch is like having a 1 speed truck with a 5 gal gas tank.

Based on my usage of my winch, with both dual and single-battery setups, I feel like using a winch with a single battery and a stock alternator is about like having a 4 speed and a 24 gallon fuel tank... Sufficient for most of my needs.

Dual batteries would be like a 5 speed (or 6 speed) and dual fuel tanks or a 40 gallon tank. Nicer if those things help you out, certainly better in most situations, but fairly expensive to implement and not something that I'm likely to use most of the time (I only use 5th a couple times/week now that I have 33's, but I don't use freeways..... ever.) Plenty of people get by with 4 speeds and gas tanks of 24 gallons or less. Plenty of people get by using a single battery on their winch.

YMMV, my life isn't your life, etc

Back to the OP, I'd put in a higher output alternator prior to investing in dual batteries. A winch can drain the heck out of any battery in just a few minutes of winching if the alt can't help refill the battery. A hi-po alternator lasts longer than a 2nd battery, weighs less, and has other benefits when you aren't winching. And in the serious faux-pas that you describe, hours of winching is liable to kill a dedicated battery just as surely as a single battery unless you have enough alternator to keep refilling the battery and/or taking some of the load for the winch motor.

Especially if you wheel with other people, because once you can get a jump-start, at least half of the benefit of a dual battery is gone and the only advantage to the dedicated battery is that you have a little more reserve amp-hours supply and that you *could* trash your battery if you needed to do so in order to get yourself out.

In my experience.

Of course you don't need dual batteries, never implied that. You don't need 4 speeds in the tranny either. 1 forward & 1 reverse will move the car when it needs to move, right? Fuel tank doesn't need 25 gallons, 5 will work, right? See where I'm going? If you've ever made a major fopaw, and need to take several hours to winch your way back to mobility again, with 1 battery, you will understand the reason for a dedicated winch battery. Especially if your engine stalls or you have to shut it off for some reason.

<snip>...even just regular winching. Long pulls can be necessary in a life saving or bad weather scenerio, where time is of the essence. Hopefully, I won't need a long pull, but it would be better to be prepared for one, than not.

 

[80t0ylc]

I think that the OP was trying to get an idea of how badly he "need" dual batteries. Based on your analogy, I'd say that you feel like having a single battery and a winch is like having a 1 speed truck with a 5 gal gas tank.

Based on my usage of my winch, with both dual and single-battery setups, I feel like using a winch with a single battery and a stock alternator is about like having a 4 speed and a 24 gallon fuel tank... Sufficient for most of my needs.

Dual batteries would be like a 5 speed (or 6 speed) and dual fuel tanks or a 40 gallon tank. Nicer if those things help you out, certainly better in most situations, but fairly expensive to implement and not something that I'm likely to use most of the time (I only use 5th a couple times/week now that I have 33's, but I don't use freeways..... ever.) Plenty of people get by with 4 speeds and gas tanks of 24 gallons or less. Plenty of people get by using a single battery on their winch.

YMMV, my life isn't your life, etc......

I'm not trying to sell anybody anything. I've already got a dual battery setup that I've had installed for several years, now. I'm just looking for the best dedicated battery for a winch. I know what I've seen and experienced and for those who are relying on 1 battery for serious winching, they are living on the thin edge. I agree, most winching scenerios are short duration and IF you have 1 healthy battery, it should survive. But reality chimes in and reminds me that ideal situations don't always happen.

......For the life of me I cannot imagine a situation I would get myself in that would require hours of winching.....

I'm not talking about hours of straight running the winch, I'm talking total time invested, including prep time, cool down & recovery time. Have you ever helped someone else in distress or been the only one with a winch on a group trip? Have you ever helped pull out a larger vehicle than your rig using a snatch block? Have you ever had weather conditions change on you such as: what was a nice dry or frozen downhill on the way in, turn into a wet, muddy mess and it's the only way out?

......I have a 150' winch cable it takes only a few minutes for the 8274 to pull it in. I've never timed it but it's not a long time, lets say 3 minutes(I think this is a lot longer than it really takes.). 150' every 3 min translates to ;60/3=20, 20X150'=3000'/hour
1 mile = 5280'
I could winch my truck over 1 mile in an hour. ....

Really!?! Not with one battery and than be able to shut your engine off and restart it, during or soon after, even if you were winching across flat dry pavement.

......Back to the OP, I'd put in a higher output alternator prior to investing in dual batteries. A winch can drain the heck out of any battery in just a few minutes of winching if the alt can't help refill the battery. A hi-po alternator lasts longer than a 2nd battery, weighs less, and has other benefits when you aren't winching. And in the serious faux-pas that you describe, hours of winching is liable to kill a dedicated battery just as surely as a single battery unless you have enough alternator to keep refilling the battery and/or taking some of the load for the winch motor.....

I disagree with you about the H.O. alternator. Yes you do have an advantage, but not as much as you say. One thing is for sure, you can't run a winch on the alternator alone - even a H.O. alternator. You might be able to rewind your spool, but forget about putting any load on the winch if your battery is low.

No, for me and winching, I prefer to keep that separated, as much as possible, from the rest of my electrical system. Here, in snow country and below zero over night temps, if you're stuck in the winter, it could mean the difference of survival being able to run the engine periodically for heat waiting out a storm or for help to arrive. Hopefully, it won't come to that, but I just like keeping the odds in my favor. I do like the idea of the H.O. alternator and plan to upgrade if the right deal pops up. Having both would be the best setup, IMHO.

......Especially if you wheel with other people, because once you can get a jump-start, at least half of the benefit of a dual battery is gone and the only advantage to the dedicated battery is that you have a little more reserve amp-hours supply and that you *could* trash your battery if you needed to do so in order to get yourself out.

In my experience.

Group outings make good sense, but it's been my experience that most rigs don't have a winch so there might be more than just you relying on your winch.

 

[rusty_tlc]

...

...Have you ever helped someone else in distress or been the only one with a winch on a group trip? Have you ever helped pull out a larger vehicle than your rig using a snatch block? Have you ever had weather conditions change on you such as: what was a nice dry or frozen downhill on the way in, turn into a wet, muddy mess and it's the only way out?

....

Yes. ....

 

[80t0ylc]

Yes. ....

Good answer, I guess I asked for that. Let me rephrase my question: Have you ever winched long enough to drop your single battery down where it wouldn't start your rig?

Let's see, from post #9, for your single battery, looks like you're running:

....It is an Optima Red top 1000CA / 800CCA. ....

From post #2, you're running a 8274 winch (best all around winch, ever, IMHO). Have you got a H.O. alternator? Even so, maybe I need to run that optima as my dedicated winch battery. What would one of those run$?

 

[sandcruiser]

I don't think that anyone would argue that single battery is a *better* solution than a double battery.

But it is about $200-$800 less expensive.

Again, the original post was from someone who has little/no experience winching and wanted to know if he could "run it safely on my existing battery".

The answer to that question is "Yes". You can run a winch safely on a single battery.

You can run it for longer, and be safer, with a dual battery system and a HO alternator with heavy gauge wiring between the alt, the isolation, and the battery and between the battery and the winch.

It is also handy to have a snatch block, or two.

A winch extension rope is awfully nice in the right situation.

Synthetic line has advantages over steel cable.

Some folks really groove on having in-cab controls, or even wireless controls for the winch.

Sometimes, it is really good to have a winch mounted in back as well. Or take the Foer's approach and central-mount the winch with a snatch in the rear and run the cabling such that you can winch forward or backward.

But...
the OP asked "Can I run it safely on 1 battery", not "what's the very best way to set up my winch so that I'm ready for any and all situations that I might encounter during the lifespan of my wheeling experience"

Does anyone disagree that a single battery setup is acceptable (but not ideal) for running an electric winch?

 

[sandcruiser]

nice work gloves, a tree saver, and at least one shackle are pretty much mandatory, by the way.
since we are addressing "what is needed" for a winch.

 

[EOE_overland]

Does anyone disagree that a single battery setup is acceptable (if not ideal) for running an electric winch?

I don't know if I'd go all the way to "ideal" for all the what-if's mentioned before, but I completely agree with acceptable. I've seen a few long, muddy winch-outs on trucks with only one battery that went very well. Don't expect to winch out an entire group of Cherokees buried up to their floors without issues, but for most circumstances it will be more than adequate. As mentioned, the OP asked if it was acceptable compared to diving into the big bucks of adding a second. I'll add the caveat of making sure it's one GOOD battery. For single-battery winching (or even just wheeling about without a group), spend a few bucks more and get something better than a Walmart or Autozone battery. Cheaply built or poorly maintained start batteries will die a horrible death far sooner than a good quality DC (even with possible design shortcomings mentioned in the last page- not rehashing past arguments, just making a point). There's a reason they're a lot cheaper! Like taking a Kia to Moab. Sure it might make it, but wouldn't you rather drive a Cruiser ? Also keeping terminals clean on the battery(s), alternator, cables, and winch will go a long way to keeping the winch and battery happy.

 

[sandcruiser]

I should have said "Acceptable, though not ideal" going back to fix it...

 

[80t0ylc]

.........Does anyone disagree that a single battery setup is acceptable (but not ideal) for running an electric winch?

Well, you know my attitude, I've already expressed it. But something else to consider, most 40s & 60s don't have the electrical conveniences and microprocessors hanging off their electrical systems, like the 80s do. I mention 80s 'cause that's what I run. An 80 is a hell of a lot harder on it's main battery than the older, simpler models are. And no dis-respect intended! I am a big fan that simpler is better. My point is: keep it simple and yes, a single battery may well be acceptable.

But an 80 that has electric windows, door locks & seats, stereo amplifier, power antenna, possibly 3 electric diff locks, engine, tranny, & ABS control units, AC, heater or climate control system. And you hang a winch on top of all that and call it "acceptable"? OP wants to put a winch on, looks like a 2001 Landcruiser, with possibly even more electronics on it and we're trying to tell him it's acceptable for his existing battery setup? I'm sorry, I don't agree that it's acceptable for these later, model Landcruisers. Just my .02

 

[rusty_tlc]

Well, you know my attitude, I've already expressed it. But something else to consider, most 40s & 60s don't have the electrical conveniences and microprocessors hanging off their electrical systems, like the 80s do. I mention 80s 'cause that's what I run. An 80 is a hell of a lot harder on it's main battery than the older, simpler models are. And no dis-respect intended! I am a big fan that simpler is better. My point is: keep it simple and yes, a single battery may well be acceptable.

But an 80 that has electric windows, door locks & seats, stereo amplifier, power antenna, possibly 3 electric diff locks, engine, tranny, & ABS control units, AC, heater or climate control system. And you hang a winch on top of all that and call it "acceptable"? OP wants to put a winch on, looks like a 2001 Landcruiser, with possibly even more electronics on it and we're trying to tell him it's acceptable for his existing battery setup? I'm sorry, I don't agree that it's acceptable for these later, model Landcruisers. Just my .02

Turn off the stereo, don't use the power windows/seats, AC etc. while winching. The ABS will be disabled in 4WD etc etc etc.

My point is with all the extra Gee Gaws off and a system sized to run them you will actually have more resources available than the older simpler models. For example the UZJ100 has a 100 Amp alternator compared to the 45A alternator found on the FJ40 and FJ60 2F engine. That alternator is rated to support all of the systems running at the same time.

Just to be sure don't use the power door locks while winching.

 

[80t0ylc]

....... That alternator is rated to support all of the systems running at the same time.......

Except the winch that was just added.

OK, even if we go by your thinking, and we shut everything down while we're winching, which BTW is convenient as hell, especially if we're winching at night or in a storm - remember, no running the power windows, lights or windshield wipers. Hopefully, the battery was in good shape. If the rig is a DD, all these gee gaws are used daily and possibly just short trips around town so good chance battery is not as healthy as it could be.

I guess that I just prefer more of a margin for error. For current draw, I compare winching to using the starter on your rig. If you were to run your starter as long as you run the winch motor when winching, it could quickly become a problem for your battery. Yes, the HO alternator helps, but given the choice, I'd want a "second starter" to have it's own battery. And conversely, if you have 2 batteries, you can jump yourself or swap, in an emergency.

 

[rusty_tlc]

...

... If the rig is a DD, all these gee gaws are used daily and possibly just short trips around town so good chance battery is not as healthy as it could be.

The battery is, of course sized for the system as well as the alternator and the alternator carries the load while the truck is running, even on short trips. Therefor a DD used for short trips will have just as healthy battery as a truck used for long trips.

I'm trying to tell you what to do I'm just pointing out a few flaws in your logic. If you want to wear a belt and suspenders by all means do it. However it is my opinion that a second battery is not a necessity when you add a winch.

 

[80t0ylc]

......... Therefor a DD used for short trips will have just as healthy battery as a truck used for long trips.

I'm trying to tell you what to do I'm just pointing out a few flaws in your logic. ........

My logic is flawed?
Right...........
I didn't know your rigs were exempt from the laws of physics. Most batteries that I know, need time as well as good current from the charging source to recharge. This battery degrading process, that I'm talking about doesn't happen overnight. It happens over weeks or months of short trips, you know, the soccer mom or errand runner. Most trips are 20 min. or less. A super battery will last longer in this environment, but will still crater eventually, even with a HO alternator or perfectly "sized" system.

........However it is my opinion that a second battery is not a necessity when you add a winch.

I agree, a second battery is NOT a necessity, after adding a winch. But, if you use the winch and your single battery isn't at its best (a very real possibility with a DD used by multiple drivers), be prepared for some inconvenience, possibly out on the trail.

BTW - not trying to be sarcastic, just careful.

 

[sandcruiser]

the additional "gee gaws" (great term!) probably have some effect on the battery... but I do think that most of the time that they are used (except for the door locks) the car is running, so there is negligible effect on the battery.

I'm sure that there are valid arguments/assumptions that are worth discussing over a cold beverage, but I'm going to stand by the concept that if I had a 2001 Land Cruiser and an electric winch, I would have no qualms about putting the winch on the truck and using it with only 1 battery. I wouldn't offer to pull 10 people out of a quagmire with it. I wouldn't try to pull myself up and over my house with it. But it would be a heck of a lot handier than no winch, and if I had to sit and let the battery recharge for 10 minutes for every 1 minute that winch, that would be a reasonable trade off vs. spending hours and $$ and brainpower installing a second battery for something that I may not use very often.

I did pull my 60 through about 5 km of very sticky/deep mud with a single battery.
Granted, it was a diesel, so very few draws on the system while running. But the winch and battery both survived the ordeal just fine. I did spend a lot of time at high-idle in between winching experiences and I did pause frequently during winchings as I saw the voltmeter dropping. But having the winch was a nice thing vs. hiking out and hiring a back hoe.

One tip that hasn't been addressed: for either a single or multi-battery installation, the wiring going to the winch can be easily upgraded for not a lot of money. Using 0 or 00 welding wire instead of the 4ga wiring that often comes with a winch will reduce the voltage drop between battery and winch (or alt) and can make what power you do have last longer and also reduce the chance of overheating the winch (and make the winch pull faster). And is a good idea in almost every winch install. A search will show that people have discussed this idea at great length.

 

[rusty_tlc]

the additional "gee gaws" (great term!) probably have some effect on the battery... but I do think that most of the time that they are used (except for the door locks) the car is running, so there is negligible effect on the battery.

I'm sure that there are valid arguments/assumptions that are worth discussing over a cold beverage, but I'm going to stand by the concept that if I had a 2001 Land Cruiser and an electric winch, I would have no qualms about putting the winch on the truck and using it with only 1 battery. I wouldn't offer to pull 10 people out of a quagmire with it. I wouldn't try to pull myself up and over my house with it. But it would be a heck of a lot handier than no winch, and if I had to sit and let the battery recharge for 10 minutes for every 1 minute that winch, that would be a reasonable trade off vs. spending hours and $$ and brainpower installing a second battery for something that I may not use very often.

I did pull my 60 through about 5 km of very sticky/deep mud with a single battery.
Granted, it was a diesel, so very few draws on the system while running. But the winch and battery both survived the ordeal just fine. I did spend a lot of time at high-idle in between winching experiences and I did pause frequently during winchings as I saw the voltmeter dropping. But having the winch was a nice thing vs. hiking out and hiring a back hoe.

One tip that hasn't been addressed: for either a single or multi-battery installation, the wiring going to the winch can be easily upgraded for not a lot of money. Using 0 or 00 welding wire instead of the 4ga wiring that often comes with a winch will reduce the voltage drop between battery and winch (or alt) and can make what power you do have last longer and also reduce the chance of overheating the winch (and make the winch pull faster). And is a good idea in almost every winch install. A search will show that people have discussed this idea at great length.

Jumper cables are a cheap source for heavy gauge wire. If you have a good parts guy he will look for long starter cables which also work well but aren't as flexible as jumper cables ( fewer strand for the same gauge).