Diesel engine for 200 series in USA

[Dougal]

Can anyone confirm if there is a gas mileage tax in the Australian NZ markets?

There is no sales tax related to fuel consumption.

Lets get back to the engine price.
In the US the LC200 5.7 is approx $uS65k
The LX570 is approx $US76k.

http://autos.yahoo.com/2009_toyota_land_cruiser_4x4/
http://autos.yahoo.com/lexus_lx_570-virtual_tour/

Given the 4.5 diesel sells for 2/3 the lexus price, the equivalent in the US would be $51k
So even with significant price gouging, the 4.5 could easily meet the 5.7 price. But yeah toyota will gouge consumers at least a little bit.

The reality is, when another maker hits that market with a diesel, the landcruiser will lose market share if they don't have one too.

 

[anderaa13]

A sales tax on fuel is about as good of a tax on fuel consumption as you can get.

 

[solidfrontaxle]

Just wondering, but how many people taking part in this discussion would actually go and buy a brand new 200 Series land cruiser right now if it came with the diesel?

 

[JBHorne]

Just wondering, but how many people taking part in this discussion would actually go and buy a brand new 200 Series land cruiser right now if it came with the diesel?

If I didn't already own a 200 and both were an option, I would pick the diesel. Depending on price, obviously, but let's say no more than $5K extra --tops.

But I'm hardly the "average" buyer.

The most often asked question when people see the new 200 series in a showroom is: "Why such small rims?" Seriously -- it is. This is your "average" buyer

 

[hedydd]

Just wondering, but how many people taking part in this discussion would actually go and buy a brand new 200 Series land cruiser right now if it came with the diesel?

In the UK petrol is generally cheaper than diesel fuel yet 98% of Range Rover and Discovery3 [LR3] and competitive luxury SUV's are sold with diesel engines where there is a choice. Toyota don't give us a choice with the 200 series purely because when we did have the choice, with the 100 series, again nearly 100% chose the diesel engine even though the 1-HD FTE is a sluggard compared to the petrol 4.7 V8. We had a choice, that's the thing. America doesn't.
The emmissions thing is a red herring because current engines meet all US criteria.

Would I buy the new diesel LC? A straight answer is no. Not because of the engine [I certainly wouldn't buy a petrol one] but because it is not a significant enough advance generally on the 100 series. Other brands have improved their models to a much greater extent and in the LC price range and vehicle type I would currently buy the 2010 Range Rover or, if a third row of seats were needed, the Discovery4. I would even condsider the ML420 or GL420CDi and even those models with a 3.2 litre diesel very seriously against the 200 Land Cruiser. It is unlikely that out of this bunch I would choose the 200 series to be my transport for the next ten to fifteen years. It is my impression that sales of the 200 series have bombed spectacularly in the EU even considering the recession and that their market share has taken a severe hit. I've only yet seen one 200 on the road and it has been out for 18 months or so. When the 100 series was introduced I was one of the first in the queue to buy one and by the time it was on sale for 18 months they were a reasonably common sight even though they were outsold by Range Rover by probably 8 to 1 or more.

Indeed, it has to be asked whether it is worth buying such quality vehicles at all at this point in time, considering that technology and preffered fuels for the future are changing so fast. It might be a good idea to hang on to your existing vehicle for a couple more years to see how it pans out or, if needs must, downsize or downprice to a Kia or Hyundai for an interim period. [seriously]

 

[chimyz]

The reality is, when another maker hits that market with a diesel, the landcruiser will lose market share if they don't have one too.

Jeep introduced a Grand Cherokee and something else with a pretty hefty Merc diesel, I don't have any figures, but it did not do well...or at least well enough to take significant market share from anyone. Quite frankly I heard the engine was a piece of S%$#, with all kinds of problems.

It is odd that a diesel civilian vehicle won't do well in North America. I think anyone who knows anything about trucks, cars and motors would jump at it in this application.

 

[Jule]

Jeep introduced a Grand Cherokee and something else with a pretty hefty Merc diesel, I don't have any figures, but it did not do well...or at least well enough to take significant market share from anyone. Quite frankly I heard the engine was a piece of S%$#, with all kinds of problems.

It is odd that a diesel civilian vehicle won't do well in North America. I think anyone who knows anything about trucks, cars and motors would jump at it in this application.

The diesel Liberty sold more than twice as many units as expected. The diesel Grand Cherokee was a horrible execution. When I bought my 80 series in 2001, I almost bought a new 2nd Gen GC. When the 3rd generation GC came out, I found it completely repulsive, I did not want anything to do with it.

The other issue was that the diesel GC was poorly executed, they took a small diesel (3.0 l) and tried to give it a big tow rating (7400 lbs) by using numerically high (3.73) axle ratios and a relatively minimal OD of .83 (compare that to .59 OD of the Toyota 6 spd or .67 of the GM 6 spd). This meant that the diesel was spinning too fast to really allow the diesel to realize its economy potential.

Short story, yes the GC diesel could be considered a failure, but just about everything else that Daimler touched at Chrysler turned into crap too. (Chrysler was a healthy company in the 90s with a strong and innovative product profile, and large cash reserves. Daimler managed to completely turn it around and destroy the company in 8 years.) I never considered the diesel GC, because I would never have anything to do with the 3rd gen GC period. If they had put that same motor into the JK, there would be one in my driveway without a doubt.

 

[Dougal]

Just wondering, but how many people taking part in this discussion would actually go and buy a brand new 200 Series land cruiser right now if it came with the diesel?

It's available here (New Zealand) but doesn't seem to be selling that well.
I've seen maybe 10 on the roads.

To be honest they're too big and cumbersome for most people. Me included. The prado is a huge seller here (virtually all diesel) but company tax laws here favour double cab utes. The hilux double cab diesel is the top seller and has been for about 20 years.

I'd rather have a hilux than a LC200, but then again, there are other utes I'd buy before the hilux. Holden Rodeo and Nissan Navara specifically. The visibility in the hilux is the main problem.

 

[hedydd]

It's available here (New Zealand) but doesn't seem to be selling that well.
I've seen maybe 10 on the roads.

Thats nine more than I've seen over here.

To be honest they're too big and cumbersome for most people. Me included. The prado is a huge seller here (virtually all diesel) but company tax laws here favour double cab utes. The hilux double cab diesel is the top seller and has been for about 20 years.

I'd rather have a hilux than a LC200, but then again, there are other utes I'd buy before the hilux. Holden Rodeo and Nissan Navara specifically. The visibility in the hilux is the main problem.

Same here. The Prado [now just called Land Cruiser here] is also a fairly strong seller and I meet several every time I travel a 30 mile route, along with maybe a dozen Discoverys and three or four Range Rovers. I too feel that the Land Cruiser is probably too big for most business drivers who probably choose the BMW X5 and the Audi Q7 mostly. The Audi is now very common and has been a very strong seller. I own one myself and am about to do a 280 mile trip just now. As I hit the urban areas of South Wales they are ten a penny. Also common as muck in N Wales and wealthy Cheshire where many football and tv stars live. In Cheshire Oaks shopping centre every other car seems to be a Q7, X5, RR Sport, or FF RR. Yet to see a full fat Land Cruiser 200 there.

 

[Dougal]

Same here. The Prado [now just called Land Cruiser here] is also a fairly strong seller and I meet several every time I travel a 30 mile route, along with maybe a dozen Discoverys and three or four Range Rovers. I too feel that the Land Cruiser is probably too big for most business drivers who probably choose the BMW X5 and the Audi Q7 mostly. The Audi is now very common and has been a very strong seller. I own one myself and am about to do a 280 mile trip just now. As I hit the urban areas of South Wales they are ten a penny. Also common as muck in N Wales and wealthy Cheshire where many football and tv stars live. In Cheshire Oaks shopping centre every other car seems to be a Q7, X5, RR Sport, or FF RR. Yet to see a full fat Land Cruiser 200 there.

I think the LC200 has missed the mark.
It's left it's utilitarian roots, but hasn't made the leap to compete with the real luxury 4wd's.
Leaving it in no-mans land.

I've yet to see a lexus 570 on the roads here. In fact I don't expect to ever see one.

 

[Skrewball]

you's guys is funnay!

 

[Kernal]

I would buy a diesel 200 if they offered it for the US market and drive it for the next 20+ years. Agree with the post that mentioned Toyota being all gaga for Hybrids; much of what Toyota USA does is based on California liberal "Green" politics, as that is where their headquarters are located (Torrance CA). No matter that the Hybrids cost more or actually pollute more during the entire life cycle of the vehicle, it is all about image and the typical magical thinking of liberals (sorry, couldn't help myself).

Here is an example from Toyota's Torrance headquarters.

"To energize continued support for Think Green! initiatives among TMS employees and to institutionalize the company's environmental ethic, employees have volunteered to become Think Green! Champions. As environmental ambassadors for their respective departments, Think Green! Champions educate fellow employees, implement sustainable practices and maximize waste reduction efforts."

About Toyota | Our News | Toyota Thinking Green - Toyota Motor Sales Headquarters Announces Zero Waste to Landfill

Diesel is just a dirty word among that group, IMHO.

For those outside the US who may have missed it, during the US government's Cash for Clunkers program (where you could turn in your old and deadly petrol burning engined vehicle and get money back from the government toward a more fuel efficient vehicle), Toyota's own advertisements had a short animation which depicted a 60 series Landcruiser being crushed!!

 

[chimyz]

For those outside the US who may have missed it, during the US government's Cash for Clunkers program (where you could turn in your old and deadly petrol burning engined vehicle and get money back from the government toward a more fuel efficient vehicle), Toyota's own advertisements had a short animation which depicted a 60 series Landcruiser being crushed!!

It had to be an animation...no way they could've pulled it off if it was a real LC, they would've had to crush it a couple of times.

 

[pman]

it was an animation. there was a long thread in chat about the ad, but i think the consensus was that it was an animated hybrid of 60, 70, and some year Bronco.

 

[Dougal]

it was an animation. there was a long thread in chat about the ad, but i think the consensus was that it was an animated hybrid of 60, 70, and some year Bronco.

It's on youtube.

YouTube - Toyota "Cash for Clunkers" Commercial

 

[Kernal]

IIRC, the first version of the ad showed a red FJ60 series four door being crushed; I called Toyota (800-331-4331) and told them I was shocked and surprised that they used a Landcruiser in the ad. The later ads showed a green rig where they cut off rear door and changed it slightly.

 

[tempestv8]

Finally got to the end of this monster 8 page thread re Diesel 4.5 liter vs Petrol/Unleaded Gasoline 5.7 liter. Phew!

Lots of varied and interesting perspectives.

In Australia, there is a choice of 4.7 V8 petrol LC200 or 4.5 Twin Turbo V8 diesel LC200. Unfortunately no 5.7 V8 petrol LC200.

Australians are clearly in love with diesel because the price difference between the 4.7 V8 petrol LC200 and the 4.5 V8 diesel LC200 is something like AUD$15K in favour of the petrol when comparing like for like. Yet, the majority of sales of the LC200 are the diesel flavour, despite the price gouge.

Diesel fuel prices in Australia are also marginally higher than petrol prices.

So the obvious purchasing logic doesn't make sense for the majority of diesel LC200 owners in Australia.

And that's not where it ends - even used LC200 prices have this disparity - used LC200 diesels are far more sought after, so in the used market, the diesel commands a price premium over the petrol.



So WHY the popularity of diesel?



I guess the scenario is quite different to the USA, in that:

a. Diesel pumps are everywhere in Australia, so just about every fuel station that sells unleaded will sell diesel as well. And in the outback, diesel is far more available than petrol. Diesel wins in coverage.

b. The torque delivery characteristics of the LC200 - makes it a more pleasant towing platform than the petrol equivalent. Diesel wins again.

c. Fuel economy - whilst the petrol 4.7 is only marginally thirstier than the diesel 4.5 when driving solo, once a boat or a caravan is attached to the back of the Cruiser, the fuel consumption delta increases dramatically. Diesel wins again.

However, it's not all good news for a diesel motor.

1. Servicing costs are slightly dearer due to higher cost of diesel engine oil.

2. One bad batch of diesel can be enough to damage the injectors, whereas the petrol injectors can tolerate some contamination of fuel.

3. Extremely cold conditions (snow) requires special blend of diesel, called "winter mix" to prevent the fuel from gelling up in the fuel delivery lines when temperatures plummet in the snow areas.



It's a shame that Toyota North America has decided to limit Americans to only the petrol engine, but at least you get a ripper 5.7 liter. Can't get that in Australia unless it is a Lexus LX570.

 

[uzj100]

It appears the G-Wagon crowd maybe making progress with a diesel G for the US Market.
PointedThree - A call from MBUSA regarding Diesel G

I wish Toyota had the 4.5 twin turbo for 200 here in the states.

 

[Carl L]

My Land Cruiser 100 4.2 litre has 200hp and 400Nm torque and averages 24mpg [imperial which is 4.546litres] while the Audi 3.0 has 230hp and 500Nm at 1800revs. In a vehicle of similar size and weight to the LC driven hard it averages 28mpg and on a long highway journey it consistently betters 33mpg.
.

While I agree with the essence of your post, the Toyota 4.2 and Audi 3.0 aren't the best examples to show how far diesels have come (kind of like my 6.6 Duramax).

The 4.2 was always underpowered from a specific output standpoint (the 4.5 is better) while the Audi 3.0 pales in comparison to BMW's 3.0 TT diesel. Hopefully that will change soon as VW-group sure have the knowledge to make great diesel engines, like the 1.9 PD150 from 10 years ago while the 6.0 V12 TDi would be a surefire success Stateside were they to bring it.

If I lived in Europe I'd choose the 4.5 over the 5.7 and I've always had a diesel in my garage. (were it avail.) But at 3/gallon I'm none too bothered about fuel economy.

On topic, I doubt we'll get the diesel here. It's all about Hybrids which is a crock of sh!t, as I'd sooner buy a used diesel or gasser than drive one of those.

 

[tempestv8]

There is a mountain of reasons which are interlinked together as to why diesel passenger vehicles are not prevalent in the USA.

I suspect that one of the reasons is government policy on choice of fuel for security reasons.

If the entire nation was very dependent on one type of fuel, and there's some kind of worldwide supply glitch, this could cause the entire country to go into shutdown. Let's say for example that USA and Europe both are very dependent on diesel fuel - and let's just say that something caused the diesel supply to be halted temporarily.

Two major regions of the world would no longer have functioning transport systems.

From an external person's point of view, the systems that are used in USA are different to Europe, and from an initial perception point of view, they seem to be deliberately different.

If you had to apply for a VISA to the United States, your passport photo must be of square dimensions, but the rest of the world is rectangular. The rest of the world seems to have standardised on GSM as a mobile phone comms protocol. USA uses something different, again, probably in the interest of national security.

Metric measurements in Europe, feet and inches and gallons in USA.

I'm sure we can start a whole new thread on what's different in the USA compared to the rest of the world. Just about every major standard or code of practice used in the USA is different to the rest of the world.

Some of it could be due to protectionism, but I suspect a lot of policies are set up for national security reasons.

That's my viewpoint, rightly or wrongly...