Clutch "Chugging" - T/O Bearing, Adjustment issue, or Tranny Bearing?

[RWBeringer4x4]

Hey guys,

I'm pulling the driveline out of my FJ40 this Spring to do an overhaul. I'm just trying to get an idea of what I'm in for.

The truck has been making a "chugging" sound in neutral since I bought it (see video). It only occurs when the clutch is let out. Early on a mechanic mentioned it could be the throw-out bearing riding the pressure plate because the clutch was mis-adjusted. Well, no amount of adjustment will get rid of it. In fact, any adjustment in either direction renders the clutch inoperable.

The truck is running an old Lakewood Scattershield setup with several stripped bolt holes and other maladies. I know these setups were pretty infamous for being installed a little crooked, and eating T/O bearings. HOWEVER, I would think that the issue would be worse if I pressed the clutch IN, if the T/O bearing was really the issue. Given that the sound only occurs in neutral, I'm thinking it could be a bearing in the transmission instead.

Basically - I'm trying to decide if I should buy a 4-speed transmission and have it on "standby" to go into the truck before I even pull the engine, or if this could be a clutch issue.

The bullet points:

• Lakewood setup is being replaced by a complete Downey setup
• Transfer case was completely grenaded when I bought it - so my guess is this truck has lived a hard life
• clutch hydraulics are new, but there is no spring on the slave cylinder. I tried to add it at one point, and it made clutch adjustment impossible
• The shifter vibrates like crazy when driving, but never pops out of gear
  
• The syncronizers seem really "slow" - If I try to downshift there's lots of resistance and whining before it drops into gear. I've heard this can also be a symptom of a misadjusted clutch too...

Let me know your thoughts! I'm leaning toward transmission bearing, and trying to source a used 4-speed tranny in the near future to make sure I have a replacement, but if there's any way this COULD be clutch related, it would save me a pile of money.

 

[miller]

As you know I have posted about a clutch tranny issues also. I feel mine is in the tranny or even transfer case so I bought a used set from a 78. I am currently rebuilding them and have had to get shafts and gears and will have about $1800 bucks into both of them. If you get a spare I would pull it apart and rebuild before you put it in. Parts are still available so it would be a good time to get it done unless you can verify its a good low mileage unit. I don't think many are though.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

As you know I have posted about a clutch tranny issues also. I feel mine is in the tranny or even transfer case so I bought a used set from a 78. I am currently rebuilding them and have had to get shafts and gears and will have about $1800 bucks into both of them. If you get a spare I would pull it apart and rebuild before you put it in. Parts are still available so it would be a good time to get it done unless you can verify its a good low mileage unit. I don't think many are though.

Agree. The transfer case I bought (used) for about $200 has been doing fine. Just did a visual inspection and spun the gears a bit to see if I felt any roughness in the bearings. Determined it didn't, so I just dropped it in. Unfortunately I had a shop do it, back when I was afraid of boxes full of gears, so I didn't get a good look at the output shaft to check wear. I might start browsing craigslist and the classifieds to see if I can find a decent used one locally, but lately I've only seen a couple crop up and they've wanted absurd money for them.

As far as I'm concerned, a manual transmission is pretty much "Mileage unlimited" if properly maintained. I don't really care if it's got 300,000 miles on it if the input/output splines aren't worn and the gears are in good shape.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Monday bump for some more opinions. I know it's probably a crapshoot until I get in there, but maybe someone has run into something similar in the past.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Did I use too many words?! Or is it just impossible to tell without tearing it down?

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Giving this a last shot and then I guess I'll give up. Anyone?

 

[laveycrafter]

I would start with the clutch myself. Check the throw out bearing and flywheel mating surface is what I suspect. Looks like a 350? Should be an easy afternoon job.

 

[FJ60Seth]

I don't have any trouble shooting advice but I want to say that a 4 speed transmission should be inexpensive. I even saw one for free on Cl a few years ago.

 

[honk]

I think it's probably the throwout bearing and I doubt it's anything that needs urgent care.

 

[Captn Conch]

when my TO bearing went south on the stock '71 it was a repetitive chirping noise when clutch was let out, it functioned fine but very annoying.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Hey there's everyone! Thanks for the responses!

I would start with the clutch myself. Check the throw out bearing and flywheel mating surface is what I suspect. Looks like a 350? Should be an easy afternoon job.

It's actually a 283, but it has been "350-ized" quite a bit. The issue is the Lakewood bellhousing has no inspection port, etc.

I don't have any trouble shooting advice but I want to say that a 4 speed transmission should be inexpensive. I even saw one for free on Cl a few years ago.

Yeah I've seen them, usually for $200-$300. Free would be nice! Right now the only one available locally is a dreamer who wants $650.

I think it's probably the throwout bearing and I doubt it's anything that needs urgent care.

Agree on the not needing urgent attention - it's been doing this for 3 years. Of course it has only seen about 500 miles in 3 years, too.

when my TO bearing went south on the stock '71 it was a repetitive chirping noise when clutch was let out, it functioned fine but very annoying.

Good to know the bearing might chirp (or maybe do what mine is doing) with the clutch out too. I thought the bearing was only engaged when you stepped on the clutch so I would have thought a bad T/O bearing would only show up when your foot was on the clutch, as opposed to off it.

I guess I'll hold off one buying a transmission until I have the driveline out and can take a closer look.

 

[Weber Sarge]

There should be a bit of free play in the clutch fork with the spring removed , if not - it's out of adjustment and riding the throwout bearing .
Sarge

 

[Captn Conch]

Yep, oddly enough, the bad TO bearing chirps with the clutch out, when you engage to shift it stops chirping.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

There should be a bit of free play in the clutch fork with the spring removed , if not - it's out of adjustment and riding the throwout bearing .
Sarge

@Weber Sarge - Yeah...For whatever reason, when I installed the clutch spring, I could not get the clutch fork to adjust at all. Either it wouldn't move far enough to disengage the clutch fork, or it would be "permanently engaged" and wouldn't go into gear (or the clutch would burn). This "chugging" situation with no clutch spring is the best I have been able to accomplish form day one. If everything is that close, tolerance wise, inside, then it wouldn't surprise me to have my T/O bearing still riding the pressure plate. I tried fooling with the pedal and slave cylinder rod for hours and this was the best I could get.

I've also heard that it is REALLY easy to install these Lakewood scattershield bellhousings crooked, since they were traditionally a "drill it yourself" job. Can't imagine having things installed slightly "clocked" would do good things...I haven't confirmed that this is the case - but I do know a number of the bellhousing bolts were stripped when I got it. I drilled and tapped for wider bolts but it seems like this could further indicate an alignment issue...

Yep, oddly enough, the bad TO bearing chirps with the clutch out, when you engage to shift it stops chirping.

That's reassuring. I'm hoping this is the case. I'm really an amateur when it comes to the interaction of all the clutch components, but my understanding was the T/O bearing (should) only be moving or engaged when the clutch is engaged. So having this noise while the clutch was out got me thinking that it might be a transmission bearing instead...since I believe the input shaft is spinning when the truck is in neutral and the clutch is out.

 

[honk]

The clearance spec at the slave cyl is 3-4mm which is 0.12" - 0.16" or less than two tenths of an inch. That's without the return spring.

With such small clearances all it would take is a little bit too tight on that adjustment coupled with a T/O bearing that's worn so it's contact face isn't kept square to the clutch fingers and there will be odd noises if there's any contact between the clutch and the T/O front face when the pedal is up.

The "chuffing" kind of noise is likely just that - a light contact as the clutch goes around.

A "chirping" is worse, I think. The chirp could be the T/O bearing seizing or seized up and if so it might possibly cause damage to the clutch arm and the clips holding the bearing because it wants to move the whole bearing in it's mount. The face of the bearing will be burnt looking and the clutch fingers, either arms or bellevue spring type will be blue from the heat generated.

I'd put the chirping T/O a lot higher on my "to-do" list than yours would be as it is now, but keep listening to it.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

The clearance spec at the slave cyl is 3-4mm which is 0.12" - 0.16" or less than two tenths of an inch. That's without the return spring.

With such small clearances all it would take is a little bit too tight on that adjustment coupled with a T/O bearing that's worn so it's contact face isn't kept square to the clutch fingers and there will be odd noises if there's any contact between the clutch and the T/O front face when the pedal is up.

The "chuffing" kind of noise is likely just that - a light contact as the clutch goes around.

A "chirping" is worse, I think. The chirp could be the T/O bearing seizing or seized up and if so it might possibly cause damage to the clutch arm and the clips holding the bearing because it wants to move the whole bearing in it's mount. The face of the bearing will be burnt looking and the clutch fingers, either arms or bellevue spring type will be blue from the heat generated.

I'd put the chirping T/O a lot higher on my "to-do" list than yours would be as it is now, but keep listening to it.

Seems like a good theory. Hopefully that's what I find when I get in there. Regardless of the issue, the driveline needs to come out to address about a half dozen other problems that stem from the PO installing my V8 about 4-5 inches too far forward in the engine bay. Given that it hasn't gotten any worse in the 3 years I've owned it, I'm inclined to agree that this isn't a "stop the presses" problem. If nothing else was wrong, I'd probably let it grind a bit more. HOWEVER, given the other issues, this will get taken care of at the same time. This is all really helpful - I'll hold off on committing to a new transmission until I have mine out and can take a look at the output shaft splines, syncros, and bearings.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Ok guys, had some spare time today so I took the FJ40 out, and brought my lovely assistant along to help shoot some video. Still trying to work out what are "normal" noises for an H42 or if mine could be about toast...

Disregard the condition of the interior. I know. I'm working on it!

VIDEO 1:
1. Showing the loud, shrill whining I get at speed above 60mph. I will point in the video when the noise starts
2. Note the high degree of "shake" in the shifter handle. Is this normal?
3. I play around with the gas in the video. When I take my foot off the pedal, and unload the engine, the noise stops. As soon as I step back on the gas and the truck reaches 60mpg, it starts up again.



VIDEO 2:

Downshifting. Listen for the loud whining of the syncronizers (trying) to engage. EVENTUALLY, the shifter will drop into gear. I downshift from 4th, to neutral as I decelerate, then attempt to put it in 2nd gear. You'll hear the synchronizers try to catch up and then finally drop into second. Then I shift down to 1st, and the pattern repeats.

NOTE: I do not take my foot off the clutch the entire time, so this is not the engine loading up, it's all transmission.
ALSO: You can still hear the shrill whining in the beginning of the video.

I have been told that this is often a symptom of a mis-adjusted clutch (which I believe we can confirm I have).

What do you all think?
1. Worn syncros or bearings?
2. Bad clutch/bad clutch adjustment?



Is the H42 just a noisy old truck transmission or is mine extra noisy?

 

[honk]

It's really pretty difficult to tell, but I don't think that anything very concerning heard in either tape. Yes, it's a truck transmission, noisier than some quieter than others and yours is a lot quieter than some I've been around.

These trucks made distinctive gear noises heard throughout a ride in one even when they were brand new. I rode over 400 miles in the back of a near new 1969 and later owned a new 1976 for five years (Don't I wish I'd kept it). The '76 was not as noisy as what I remembered of the '69 but the gears could be heard and I liked the sounds then and still like them today.

That 'high pitched' sound that you pointed at I can't identify and wouldn't worry about. I don't think I've ever taken an FJ40 to 60 mph though, so what do I know. It didn't sound like anything coming apart and my first reaction was that it was from something vibrating when you got going that fast. Coulda' been anything, even a cotter pin vibrating like a tuning fork in it's hole.

In other words I dunno'.

Don't worry, be happy.

 

[copper204]

I will throw a guess at INPUT bearing on Transmission.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

It's really pretty difficult to tell, but I don't think that anything very concerning heard in either tape. Yes, it's a truck transmission, noisier than some quieter than others and yours is a lot quieter than some I've been around.

These trucks made distinctive gear noises heard throughout a ride in one even when they were brand new. I rode over 400 miles in the back of a near new 1969 and later owned a new 1976 for five years (Don't I wish I'd kept it). The '76 was not as noisy as what I remembered of the '69 but the gears could be heard and I liked the sounds then and still like them today.

That 'high pitched' sound that you pointed at I can't identify and wouldn't worry about. I don't think I've ever taken an FJ40 to 60 mph though, so what do I know. It didn't sound like anything coming apart and my first reaction was that it was from something vibrating when you got going that fast. Coulda' been anything, even a cotter pin vibrating like a tuning fork in it's hole.

In other words I dunno'.

Don't worry, be happy.

I'm not happy unless I've got something to worry about

My concern (particularly in the downshifting video) is that the clutch is pressed in while it's making that noise. And I have to hold the shifter into the syncronizers for 3-4 seconds before they slow down enough to allow it to drop into gear...That noise you're hearing (I think) are the syncros spooling, trying to match the RPM's. Now, I have heard this can be caused by a clutch that's not fully disengaging and it may not actually be the syncros failing, but that's what I'm trying to figure out.

I will throw a guess at INPUT bearing on Transmission.

Kind of what I'm thinking too, just wondering if it's normal or excessive. It's pretty loud in the cab, but as you can see, I also have no shift covers and a massive hole in my transmission hump, so there's not a lot to muffle the transmission noises...