CCOT HFS Springs Sagging, no warranty

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reading through these problems with springs, I just do not see how they could break/deform so quickly. My old factory springs seem fine, how did they last so long if the new ones are only good for a year or two?

doing a basic search for leaf springs I found this springs 101 article, they list a SAE 5160 to be used. Are these new springs just made out of the wrong stuff? reading through ccot write up on the springs they just mention it made out of the "best stuff" what ever that is.

http://www.eatonsprings.com/Spring Tech 101.pdf
 
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Aaron Velasquez emailed CCOT to say...

"I've started a couple of threads on IH8MUD to vent my frustration. There are quite a few people wondering how this is going to resolve, at least one of them was considering buying the same springs.

Your reputation is getting a little bit tarnished. "

Aaron Velasquez...

CCOT has never posted on IH8MUD.com but this misrepresentation of our Customer Service and HFS Springs warrants a reply.

A few days ago, Aaron reported to CCOT that he had a lean on his FJ60 and that he had removed an HFS spring and re-arched it to level the vehicle. He said that after some time the re-arching relaxed and the vehicle was low again on one side about 1". See measuring tape photos provided by Aaron, below.

We had ask Aaron for photos to see if we could determine the cause of his FJ60 lean. He emailed photos from which frankly we could not discern a lean at all. A photo from the front looked like there may have been a lean on the Passenger's side and a photo from the rear looked like there may have been a lean on the driver's side. If so, its so subtle you just can't tell... See pix below...

Aaron's lean being caused by a bad spring was most unusual because we are not aware of a bad FJ60/62 spring out of this spring formula since it was revised in December of 2003. We have sold close to 100 sets of HFS springs since then and are only aware of two Customers that had lean problems. We shipped one Customer the wrong spring out of a different batch (our mistake - photo showed wrong part number and we paid for the spring swap) and another Customer installed his springs backwards (photo showed wheel was not centered in the rear wheel well ). Photographs help us look for installment problems that cannot be cured with a replacement spring.

Aaron claimed to CCOT that he had a 1" lean, but we read on this forum that he claimed to have a 3" lean ? If Aaron truly had a 3" sag in the beginning, then why did he not report this to CCOT for a replacement spring? Instead, he took matters into his own hands and modified the spring by re-arching without even calling CCOT. The spring may have been good, but an installer error could have caused the lean, or maybe he had the 1st bad HFS spring from this batch. We'll never know the original state of Aaron's spring because he modified the spring by re-arching.

If a Customer has a spring problem, then don't modify the spring. Instead call CCOT and we can figure out the problem. Modified springs, however, void all warranties and this policy holds true with any other spring maker or any other product that we know of.

Aarrons-Lean.jpg

Arrons-Lean-Front-Rear.jpg
 
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Do a search and you will find a friend of mine in Canada who installed a rear set of springs that sagged severly.

Long story short do the search.......they did nothing for him..


Rob
 
Aaron, I'm gonna have to side with CCoT on this one. From your post, you did not say you contacted CCoT before you re-arched the spring. Bad move. Yep, your warranty is void if the product is modified in any way.

I have been in the retail & manufacturing business myself and believe they are in the right. Now, I don't know how they treated you when you called/emailed -- that's a he said, she said thing that I wasn't there for and can't speak to.

Purely from a warranty standpoint, I'd say you have no claim since you modified the spring before they could take a close look at it.

Please give vendors a chance to make things right. Most all the time they will go out of their way to do so as they risk their reputation if they don't.

Jody.
 
All I can say is that the springs sagged SEVERELY less than a year after installation. The truck was parked in Santa Fe the whole time, so unless some grizzly bears were bouncing on the left rear at night, the spring was to blame.

My installer recommended a re-arch. It didn't occur to me to contact CCOT at that point, since I had what looked like a reasonable solution in front of me. My bad.

However, CCOT is not reasonable enough to realize that I would never have re-arched the spring if there was no problem to begin with. They are too busy trying to deny that there is a problem.

As the measuring tape photos show, there is a discernable sag AFTER re-arching. It may not look bad, but it's only been a few months. I figure it will be just as bad as before a year later. CCOT has treated me like a criminal, but never stopped to consider that I may be telling the truth.

I recommend that you, my fellow cruiserheads watch out for CCOT. They are unfriendly businesspeople, not very versed in the concept of customer service. All they had to do to make this right was send me a replacement spring. Ask yourself, why on earth would I want ONE replacement spring if there wasn't a problem? I guess I could use it as a paperweight and laugh about how I fooled them! Ha ha ha!

Anyway, the warranty only covers breakage, and there is a new post on CCOT's website stating that these are "LIFT" springs, and not "OVERLOAD" springs. So, I figure that covers their butt if they have more spring failures. They'll just claim YOU overloaded the vehicle.

BUYER BEWARE! Pay the extra and go with a reputable manufacturer.
 
CCOT's paranoia

And another thing. CCOT went to all the trouble to post my pictures and their little conspiracy theories about my tape measure placement, and they could have just been nice.

I run a business, too, and I've never been this freaky with a customer.
 
I'm not taking sides, but after you took the spring and re-arched it, it is not right to make it their problem. Maybe they could have handled it better in your eyes, but I know of NO products that you could put through a process similar to re-arching and then make a claim....

Sorry if it is a lesson learned the hard way, but it sounds like they do through a lot of trouble to analzye pictures and offer install advice for something they just distribute......

I think CCOT has been and will continue to be fine. You have to be fair, and trashing them here with exaggerated information does not make your case for you...

Nothing personal, just my take. Again, mess with the product, you can;'t take it back. You know that no matter what you say. Order a spring and be done with it. If they'll even sell you one know.

You also admitted to getting hot with them. I used to do that, you will learn not to one day.
 
Once again, regardless of whether or not the customer followed the correct procedures. CCOT would have been out 1 spring and shipping if they would have replaced the spring. I'll guess that a spring and shipping costs around $200.

As a business, avoiding losing a customer and the potential future customers from the negative press a situation like this creates would be $200 well spent. I think CCOT is completely valid in their stance that they are not obligated to replace the spring since it was modified before they had a chance to inspect it. I also think it would have been good business to spend the $200 anyway and come out looking great. Aaron gets his spring, CCOT comes out the hero and gets some great press on a website full of target customers.

Customers that have a problem with a supplier that gets rectified properly are often more loyal than customers that never had a problem at all.

I believe Aaron is being honest, and I believe CCOT has the right to refuse replacement due to the spring being modified. Not how I would have handled either end of the situation. A clear case of "lose/lose".
 
LOSE/lose

RE:
I believe Aaron is being honest, and I believe CCOT has the right to refuse replacement due to the spring being modified. Not how I would have handled either end of the situation. A clear case of "lose/lose".

Thanks, this is my point exactly. I don't really mind spending money on good product, and I probably would have dropped a few thousand more on CCOT if they had decided to handle this with some grace. I would have referred people who would have done the same.

.
 
I agree with you Gulp, except for the fact that happy customers don't regularly just post up "hey these guys are great" posts. So there wouldn't have been any positive publicity to gain for them.

Again, I do agree that things could have been handled differently.

But in this situation, it seems like things were exagerrated, and then a thread was started to blast CCOT and even used to taunt/threaten them enough to be forced to defend themselves.

Again, no offense to the customer here and Mud member. I have seen plenty of threads here where beefs were way more justifed than what we know....But judging from his admitted outburst, exclusion of information to further his situation, just doesn't do it for me.

There are no conspiracy theories here as he suggested. He may have recvd a bad spring, but then having it bent, heated, or whatever re-arching means was used and then publicly blasting them for not replacing it was wrong IMO.

He knows it as well.
 
NocalFJ60 said:
I don't know if I would do anymore business based on my last couple of orders with CCOT. They have good products and some decent prices but just something is missing with their business I don't like. You get what you pay for with springs. If the prices is less they probably use a cheapier steel and do not heat treat it or do anything to harden the metal.

goodluck[/QUOTE

Rule #1 If you don't take care of your customer, someone else will. :cheers: :popcorn: :beer:
Click to expand...
 
Just a few circumstantial points should be considered that influenced the response that CCOT had with Aaron's spring issue. First, Aaron was using this board against CCOT (to gain leverage?) prior to any decision being made on Springs by CCOT. Our office employees described his numerous phone calls on our 800 line as lengthy and badgering to individual employees who explained to Aaron that they had no authority to make a decision, yet he persisted in harassing them. Aaron signed off on one later email to CCOT about the Springs as an "Attorney". (Was this salutation a warning?) CCOT was made to feel by Aaron that we had to give him what he wanted and make an exception to Spring Warranty to "Hush" the issue on this Board and stop his harassing phone calls.

You are correct that it would be much easier to give in to Aaron's tactics and bend the warranty, but this would be to reward his unfair tactics to gain leverage. Initially, Aaron spoke of one particular re-arched spring showing a sag. Later, Aaron wrote to us in an email that he felt we should ship two new rear springs (not just one) and pay for the installation. All the while, Aaron was making negative posts to this board.

CCOT makes exceptions to the rules daily, but in this case because of the tactics used, we could only see a fair resolve to uphold Warranty. Our spring formula for the HFS FJ60 springs has proven to be excellent and no modifications have been made to this formula since 12/11/03. Changes may be made to the formula in the future as long as it does not compromise the success of our original formula. We are very cautious to change a spring formula that we know works.

CCOT
 
My small experiences with CCOT have been fine. I would consider them when looking at springs...or calendars.
 
I have bought many parts from CCOT, knowingly that their prices reflect aftermarket knockoffs that worked well enough for my old beater 40. Never an issue with them but never much of an expectation either. I believe they should back their product, no Aaron shouldn't have rearched, but that doesn't matter, guy says it sagged, take care of it. Home Depot understands this philosophy and knows that a happy customer will return to spend even more money with them.
 
Excluded Information????? Wtf??

RE: But judging from his admitted outburst, exclusion of information to further his situation, just doesn't do it for me.

What information did I exclude? Go to the top of the page, actually read my first post and re-think that statement. If I really wanted to defraud CCOT, I wouldn't have told them I re-arched the spring, or I would have loaded the corner of the car with bricks before the photo.

Take a look at my original post, the information is all there. I was upfront with CCOT and upfront with my posts here. If I was trying to do something underhanded, I would have done a better job. The truth is that I'm telling the truth and CCOT doesn't want to believe me. I suppose they will reconsider if they get more bad springs, but I doubt they'll admit it to me or anybody else.

My "admitted outburst" was caused by the frustration of dealing with a bunch of ethics-impaired customer service people at CCOT. They didn't want to take responsibility and looked for the most convenient out instead of taking my word. Good luck dealing with them on a similar issue, smarty pants.
 
fsusteve said:
I have bought many parts from CCOT, knowingly that their prices reflect aftermarket knockoffs that worked well enough for my old beater 40. Never an issue with them but never much of an expectation either. I believe they should back their product, no Aaron shouldn't have rearched, but that doesn't matter, guy says it sagged, take care of it. Home Depot understands this philosophy and knows that a happy customer will return to spend even more money with them.
Click to expand...

I totally disagree - Home Depot would not let you cut a sheet of plywood in half then return it because you said it was warped.

IMHO, Aaron's behavior, right or wrong, is indicative of society-wide issue of accountability. He made a bad decision to resolve the situation on his own (Note: i have made similar decisions due to factors such as cost, time constraints, etc) which resulted in voiding the warranty. He is accountable for his actions.

Cool Cruisers must know they will be held accountable for their actions as well in the form of knee-jerk reactions to the situation by other prospective buyers. It is a complete lose - lose situation for both parties rather than an amicable resolution to the situation. From Aaron's rants, I would suggest he will never be satisfied so what would CCOT gain from handling the situation differently.

Will I buy from Cool Cruisers - ABSOLUTELY. Will I ask them to perform to reasonable standards and will I expect them to expect me to perform to reasonable standards - ABSOLUTELY.

Rant mode off:

Troy :flipoff2:
 
Negative posts.

re: All the while, Aaron was making negative posts to this board.

This is untrue. I posted after CCOT told me they would not replace the spring unless they had sent me the wrong part number
They had already made their determination. That is when I started complaining.

There was no badgering and no harrassment. I got upset once on the phone because of the runaround I was getting. The rest of my communications with CCOT were calm and thoughtfully executed.

My installer recommended I ask for both rear springs so I wouldn't have to arch an old or a new to match. I had already paid for installation and rearching, so I figured I'd ask CCOT to help with the re-install of good parts.

Anyway, think what you will, but think twice before buying these springs. I'm already out several hundred dollars. The only fix I have at this point is to rebuild the defective spring pack.

If CCOT had spent half the time listening to me as they spent avoiding the issue, this would be over.
 
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RE: From Aaron's rants, I would suggest he will never be satisfied so what would CCOT gain from handling the situation differently.

Absolutely untrue. I'd be satisfied with a new spring or an apology and a careful explanation of the warranty terms. If CCOT had told me flat out that the warranty didn't cover sags, I'd have moved on. Instead they accused me of causing the problem due to a bad install. This got my dander up.
 
Let it go....

I am no therapist but this is going on too long and says more about the buyer than anything else. Aaron, you need to let this go and move on with the hobby. My advice, now that you have gathered the collective, and honestly divergent, wisdom of the board is to DELETE YOUR POST. Get it out of your system man and try to remember why these rigs are fun.

What is that line from Sandler's anger management....????
 
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