Can starter failure cause internal engine damage

[Mark_in_Fresno]

My starter gave out yesterday after 240K miles and had been making a bad sound during start up the past few days. The sound would go away after the engine fired up and ran fine until it wouldn't start yesterday. After finding the posts on the forum about how to replace the starter- I called for a tow to the Toyota dealership (oil change and tire rotation is my max skill/patience).

The dealership called to tell me that I had engine failure and that they would need to tear down the top end to even begin to determine the extent..... $2,500 minimum to diagnose the extent.

Can anyone tell meif this seems at all possible- starter failure causing internal engine failure?

 

[Mike6158]

Sniff... sniff... I smell something but I can't quite put my finger on it AH! I know what it is! It's male bovine fecal matter! (we should have an emoticon for that)

Maybe something is toast in the engine but it's not going to come from a starter failure.

 

[cooper30]

Granted, I'm very new to the 4.7...maybe there are some nuances I'm not familiar with...but based on what I know from doing all the maintenance on my own vehicles over the past 20+ years, I'm not sure how a failed started can affect the top end.

Maybe the teeth on the ring gear, but that's not the top end.

Am I missing something.....how exactly does the starter engage on these engines?

 

[cooper30]

Unless you threw a timing belt.....

 

[Mark_in_Fresno]

Unless you threw a timing belt.....

Nope, replaced the timing belt/water pump 20k miles ago. Engine ran fine after turning over and was running fine until I turned it off. Dealer told me they couldn't get the motor to rotate with a breaker bar, like it was frozen. Can the starter fail and put shrapnel into the engine??

 

[cooper30]

The only thing I know about the starter is what I just found via Google. It is under the manifold (on the top of the engine), but in the picture I just saw, it doesn't look like anything could fall into it.

Maybe the starter is stuck engaged and not letting the motor turn?

 

[aljollano]

Tell them to leave your truck alone and take it to a reputable shop.
My 0.2

A.J

 

[Mark_in_Fresno]

OK, so I'm not crazy. I'm going to speak to the service tech tomorrow morning .... as I wait for the tow truck to take it somewhere else. I found this pic on Google images and can't see how there could be any correlation. Wanna have my ducks in a row when I go in tomorrow morning

 

[Sandroad]

In looking through the starter contact replacement thread in the FAQs, I don't see how a starter contact failure could cause engine damage.

Procedure for replacing 100 series(98 and up) starter contacts

 

[cooper30]

Sarcasm alert......Ok, so the starter is on the top end of this engine, unlike others where it is on the bottom. Say the starter has failed and won't disengage allowing the engine to turned over by hand. To access the starter, the top of the motor has to be torn into. Maybe this is why they are claiming what they are.

On another note, what would happen when you turned the key the when it wouldn't start? Did the engine turn over? Click?

 

[ENGINE er]

I bet a flex plate failure is more likely to cause the engine not to be able to turn over by hand.

My bet is an inexperienced tech rather than an shiesty dealer.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

It may not be your starter but could be an internal problem that now the starter can't turn the engine over. A "bad sound" during start up like from the starter or from the motor, like rod knock?

 

[ponytl]

hard to tell exactly what may or may not be going on... IF it's the starter... in some weird 1 in 100 way the Bendix could jam with the flex plate and seize the engine... would be pretty rare...
1. with the truck on the ground even with a limited skill set you could.... remove the front skid pan place a socket on the front crankshaft bolt (22mm i think)... and see if the engine can be turned over using via the bolt...
2. there is a small sheet metal inspection plate at the bottom of your bellhousing (2 10mm bolts from memory) you can do a visual inspection of the flex plate from here (flashlight on your back under the truck of course) you can see the teeth of the flex plate and you could look for broken metal parts here....
3. (maybe first) is let someone else try to start the truck while you listen... if the starter is good and the engine has had a failure... you should hear the starter engage but the engine NOT turn... if the starter is BAD you might hear a click but nothing mechanical sounding... I'm sure you could measure the amp draw of the starter but I'm not sure what that would tell you...
If you were here just as a point of reference I could install a complete used engine with HALF the miles or less than yours with new water pump & timing belt & related parts... for $3k in 3 days and I'd be making money

 

[Mark_in_Fresno]

hard to tell exactly what may or may not be going on... IF it's the starter... in some weird 1 in 100 way the Bendix could jam with the flex plate and seize the engine... would be pretty rare...
1. with the truck on the ground even with a limited skill set you could.... remove the front skid pan place a socket on the front crankshaft bolt (22mm i think)... and see if the engine can be turned over using via the bolt...
2. there is a small sheet metal inspection plate at the bottom of your bellhousing (2 10mm bolts from memory) you can do a visual inspection of the flex plate from here (flashlight on your back under the truck of course) you can see the teeth of the flex plate and you could look for broken metal parts here....
3. (maybe first) is let someone else try to start the truck while you listen... if the starter is good and the engine has had a failure... you should hear the starter engage but the engine NOT turn... if the starter is BAD you might hear a click but nothing mechanical sounding... I'm sure you could measure the amp draw of the starter but I'm not sure what that would tell you...
If you were here just as a point of reference I could install a complete used engine with HALF the miles or less than yours with new water pump & timing belt & related parts... for $3k in 3 days and I'd be making money

-The starter sounds like it is freely spinning when engaged- so maybe something broke free from the starter and is jamming the flywheel?
Sound possible?

 

[Mark_in_Fresno]

Update- I spoke with the mechanic this morning that had actually looked at it when it was brought in (instead of the service writer). He couldn't move the engine by wrenching on the crankshaft. The starter when actuated sounds like it spins freely when attempting to start it. I asked if the starter gear or other could have come loose and lodged itself in the flywheel as a possible explanation for the crankshaft jammed. The last time it started, there was an ongoing noise (possibly starter gear or shrapnel bouncing around the flywheel) after it started.

They are going to pull the intake manifold to inspect the starter and flywheel. I guess if bits are missing off the starter, the flywheel may need to be accessed to remove the bits jamming it as well as it possibly replaced? Apparently, the only way to get to the flywheel, if bits need to be removed, is to pull the transmission? Going to hear back later today after the tech can do a visual inspection on the starter.

Thanks for your posts on this!

Stay Tuned for the Exciting Update......

 

[crimsonaudio]

Thanks for the updates - aside from the starter motor fusing or grinding into he flywheel I can't imagine a failed starter causing an engine to seize.

Please keep us updated.

 

[cooper30]

Hopefully it's something simple like that.

 

[ponytl]

-The starter sounds like it is freely spinning when engaged- so maybe something broke free from the starter and is jamming the flywheel?
Sound possible?

IF the starter is freely spinning... then the Bendix (the part of the starter motor that actually engages with the flexplate to turn the engine over) could have come lose or broken off and lodged itself into the flexplate and locked the engine up... if the bendix was still there the starter would NOT spin with the engine locked up... MY GUESS with the supplied info is some part of the starter drive broke off and lodged itself between the flexplate and block or trans...

IF god is smiling upon you then MAYBE the part can be dislodged and removed and you MIGHT get away with JUST a starter replacement... IF no real damage was done to the flexplate or torque converter or block or transmission then the trans will NOT have to be removed.... saving you $$$$ BITS can be removed out the top or bottom there is a small inspection plate on the bottom... they could have removed in 1min to look for loose "BITS"

good luck
p

 

[Mark_in_Fresno]

UPDATE- Toyota tech removed bad starter and was able to rotate the crankshaft as a result. Flywheel was not significantly damaged. New OEM starter and associated parts total around $400 plus labor will bring the bill north of $1,000.
I'll try to get some details from the tech when I pick it up tomorrow.

Thanks again for all of the responses to this post!

 

[cooper30]

Much better than $2500+