Land Speeder
InstaH8R
I don't wheel very hard.
Builds Brunt Force Trauma's fj80 thread.
- Thread starter Brunt Force Trauma
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I don't wheel very hard.
If strength is the only goal, there's lots of insanely strong axles out there...they just all come at a price (weight/size).
I know Volvo portals are only 8", but Unimog 404's are 9" and from what I understand 406/416's are even beefier. The 404's can "only" handle 44's (and then it's the portal box that is the weak link, not the ring).
I'd say that the proof is in the pudding. Mog's make pretty darn amazing crawlers (big tires + tons of clearance + uber low gears = win), if they weren't so incredibly big and heavy (7k+ lbs for a relatively "light" version
) I'd want one of my own. 
2007 Unimog on Rubicon Trail Old Sluice - YouTube
I'd say that's pretty hardcore.
Regardless, I didn't mean to turn this into a pro/con portal thread. I don't think BFT is going to go portals (but man, I'd love to see cut down Mog axles in an 80), so it's a moot point. My only point to Wrench was that there's a lot of stuff outside bigger lift and bigger tires that makes wheeling better, and it's not a one size fits all approach (certainly portals don't fit everyone's needs). I was just tossing out an alternative, something to consider and keep in mind, whether he goes with it or not...well that's all
to me.Otherwise this would be the ultimate wheeling rig. I guess 19" lift and 49" Iroks fits the "Bigger lift and bigger tires are the only way to go. Anything else is just a compromise" statement quite nicely.
6" lift? Pfft. 19" or go home.
It's not necessarily how hard you wheel, but the type of wheeling you do. I don't wheel hard at all, yet have managed to bend my 1/4" belly plate (in multiple places). Never tried to hit it, just cases of "well you're gonna come down on that rock..."
Different areas has different terrain, necessitates different builds and wheeling styles.
Land Speeder
InstaH8R
BFT, in my opinion is doing the all the right things to make an 80 more wheel-worthy, including dropping it lower. As well as removing sheetmetal, which was the best thing I ever did to get my hippos down the trail. Mere opinion, but there is a such thing as too high. And I got opinions running outta me like I had a bowl of grape nuts.
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- #385
As far as body lift. I just don't like it. I know most folks will say it doesn't affect handling, but I have run my past rigs with and without it, and I don't like how it makes the rig "feel." Plus it seems to transfer vibrations into the cab more. But thats just my opinion.
Bigger lift and tires works to a certain point IMO. But Id rather figure ways to achieve an "optimal" lift and the biggest tires possible. I think 4-6" of lift on the 80 is "optimal." When all is said and done I will be at about 5". which I think is perfect. I dont think simply stating that higher is better applies to any off road situation except may mud bogging. If it was, crawlers and desert racers wouldnt engineer their rigs low with big tires.
I think we all have different opinions on what we want our rigs to be. And some of that is based on the type of driving and terrain we deal with. Just because something works well for you, doesnt always mean it applies across the board. Ive run my rig higher, and lower. And i personally like something in the middle. My intention is to build this truck to be street-able so i can take it snowboarding and camping and such, and also be able to run on a variety of terrains when I need to. Fast and slow, rocks, sand, snow, etc. In the end my goal will be 40's with about 5" of lift. But for now its my DD and I cant afford to break parts. So Ill stick with 37's and fairly "mild" wheeling for now until I can upgrade axles and such, or I get another vehicle. Plus, I am poor, and its cheaper to take stuff off, than to add stuff on.
It really boils down to the fact that I really like driving my truck, and I want to keep it that way. And I also really like cutting it up and making it as simple and useful as possible. I personally enjoy the building part as much as the wheeling. Everyday someone gives me a thumbs up, or asked me what the hell my truck is. Sure, I could have thrown a lift kit, 315's and some aftermarket bumpers on it, and called it a day. But I enjoy having something different. If you dont like it, well thats ok too.
Bigger lift and tires works to a certain point IMO. But Id rather figure ways to achieve an "optimal" lift and the biggest tires possible. I think 4-6" of lift on the 80 is "optimal." When all is said and done I will be at about 5". which I think is perfect. I dont think simply stating that higher is better applies to any off road situation except may mud bogging. If it was, crawlers and desert racers wouldnt engineer their rigs low with big tires.
I think we all have different opinions on what we want our rigs to be. And some of that is based on the type of driving and terrain we deal with. Just because something works well for you, doesnt always mean it applies across the board. Ive run my rig higher, and lower. And i personally like something in the middle. My intention is to build this truck to be street-able so i can take it snowboarding and camping and such, and also be able to run on a variety of terrains when I need to. Fast and slow, rocks, sand, snow, etc. In the end my goal will be 40's with about 5" of lift. But for now its my DD and I cant afford to break parts. So Ill stick with 37's and fairly "mild" wheeling for now until I can upgrade axles and such, or I get another vehicle. Plus, I am poor, and its cheaper to take stuff off, than to add stuff on.
It really boils down to the fact that I really like driving my truck, and I want to keep it that way. And I also really like cutting it up and making it as simple and useful as possible. I personally enjoy the building part as much as the wheeling. Everyday someone gives me a thumbs up, or asked me what the hell my truck is. Sure, I could have thrown a lift kit, 315's and some aftermarket bumpers on it, and called it a day. But I enjoy having something different. If you dont like it, well thats ok too.
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Land Speeder
InstaH8R
Pure art right there.
This is one of the nicest 80s on Mud. Big lifts and tires are great, but unless you have a set purpose for your rig, it's going to be an expensive bolt on mess that may or may not do what you want. I would go about building my truck differently with more money... but I don't. Selling parts is a great plan, as is finding the lowest possible lift for the tires. Also, an IPOR crossmember and skid gain you some belly clearance and protection without having to lift it more. I'm trying to stay two inches and eventually go 38s. It's a long process, but in the end, when you have something that you love that you bled into... Doesn't matter what the doubters say. I enjoy something different too. Keep it up.
Personally, I would run taller spring than a body lift for a couple reasons:
1) Even if you raise the drivetrain, exhaust and fuel tank, you still have the links, brackets & frame in the same place and IDK about you but I get hung up on brackets and links way before I get hung up on my awesome skidplate!
2) With a body lift, you are raising the COG without changing the characteristic of the spring to compensate.
As far as portals go, the only "off the shelf" option would be Volvo 303's and they are just not strong enough to justify the cost. I would rather do Dodge 1-ton axles if it was my money...
I'm in the camp of leaving the suspension geometry as close to stock as possible. I like the no lift / big tire train of thought and will always go that direction. Unfortunately, the "sawz-all lift" only goes so far before you start making big compromises. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not....
1) Even if you raise the drivetrain, exhaust and fuel tank, you still have the links, brackets & frame in the same place and IDK about you but I get hung up on brackets and links way before I get hung up on my awesome skidplate!
2) With a body lift, you are raising the COG without changing the characteristic of the spring to compensate.
As far as portals go, the only "off the shelf" option would be Volvo 303's and they are just not strong enough to justify the cost. I would rather do Dodge 1-ton axles if it was my money...
I'm in the camp of leaving the suspension geometry as close to stock as possible. I like the no lift / big tire train of thought and will always go that direction. Unfortunately, the "sawz-all lift" only goes so far before you start making big compromises. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not....
But a suspension lift still leaves a lot of those links and stuff low...you're not changing axle height and those links connect to the axle. You're changing the angle of them (so not as much of the link is low), but the end point to the link is still in the same place.
As I said before, you're far more likely to bash a link than you are your t-case, absolutely no question about that.
The only way to get those links out of the way is either by moving the end point (not feasible on the rear links, PITA on the front links) or running a bigger tire. I guess portals would do it too, but as mentioned before those aren't really a great option for a variety of reasons.
Well, not to rehash the whole debate, but a body lift only raises about 10-15 percent (or so) of the weight. So the weight difference is pretty minor compared to an equivalent spring lift.
And isn't the whole goal of a lift to be able to run bigger tires (within reason....). If you can raise 10% of the weight and run 37's instead of raising 100% of the weight, isn't that a win?
Who's to say that the characteristic of the spring can't be changed to compensate? Lately a ton of spring options have opened up, so we're not stuck with OME, OME, or....OME. You can keep the same height and get several different options (including progressive!!!).
Obviously cutting is the ideal way to go, no height increase and run bigger tires. But most of us can't hack up our trucks.
Yeah there really is very little you can sawz-all before you start making compromises. I'd love to start hacking up my truck, but there's no way that's going to happen if I expect it to stay a DD and all around vehicle.
Kudo's to those of you who can.
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To each their own, I guess... IMO, body lifts just aren't worth it.
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- #391
Suspension lifts dont raise 100% of the weight. The axles and tires dont move. And thats a lot of weight. Even if the body is only 10-15% of the weight, I find that those kinds of numbers dont mean much in the real world. Strap a mere 200lbs to your roof and tell me it doesn't affect how the truck handles.
IMO the sawzall route is BETTER than more lift for a daily driver practicality wise. Daily driver means getting in and out of the truck everyday, along with loading and unloading. To me having a truck that's higher up is way more impractical than having a little extra wheel well. But again, it all depends on what you want from your truck. If looks are a big concern, then chopping it up probably isnt your cup o' tea. I get that.
IMO the sawzall route is BETTER than more lift for a daily driver practicality wise. Daily driver means getting in and out of the truck everyday, along with loading and unloading. To me having a truck that's higher up is way more impractical than having a little extra wheel well. But again, it all depends on what you want from your truck. If looks are a big concern, then chopping it up probably isnt your cup o' tea. I get that.
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- #392
My temporary solution to the dilemma of needing to haul cargo with no floor in the truck. You might be a redneck if...
Kinda strange to come into your thread this late but we share similar opinions of body lifts but they can have a place in a build. I have a 1" body lift coupled with a modified OME heavy w/ 1.5" front spacers that allowed me to run 36" swampers with barely any rub, i.e. plenty of room to run 37's with some light rub. Originally I wanted to run 36's with as little suspension lift as possible and the 1" body lift made it happen easily all in an effort to maintain as low of CG as practical.
Once I installed the body lift I noticed the fuel tank was attached to the body and not the frame, kudos for clearance. At any rate after the install I had considered expending the effort to install a 1.5-2" body lift and lift the drive train 1-1.5" which would allow for a flat belly with a new cross member. That coupled with 36"-37" tires would help. All that would have remained was dealing with the rock magnet control arm mounts.
In terms of weight above the CG, it doesn't take much to notice a difference. My roof rack that I normally don't wheel with that weights ~75 lbs and I sure noticed it was there on my last real wheeling trip in the Black Hills. If you have 10-15% (which is likely less than the body weight) moved a few inches higher in a truck that weighs 5000 lbs you're talking about 500-750 lbs. When you're goal is to keep a low CG every inch counts.
Keep up the good work on the build, been reading through it a couple times.
Once I installed the body lift I noticed the fuel tank was attached to the body and not the frame, kudos for clearance. At any rate after the install I had considered expending the effort to install a 1.5-2" body lift and lift the drive train 1-1.5" which would allow for a flat belly with a new cross member. That coupled with 36"-37" tires would help. All that would have remained was dealing with the rock magnet control arm mounts.
In terms of weight above the CG, it doesn't take much to notice a difference. My roof rack that I normally don't wheel with that weights ~75 lbs and I sure noticed it was there on my last real wheeling trip in the Black Hills. If you have 10-15% (which is likely less than the body weight) moved a few inches higher in a truck that weighs 5000 lbs you're talking about 500-750 lbs. When you're goal is to keep a low CG every inch counts.
Keep up the good work on the build, been reading through it a couple times.
Sorry, I wasn't going into all the details. Those numbers are only for what's moving in suspension or body lift, it ignores any unsprung weight completely (axle, tires, rims, etc). They are based on what real life numbers I could find (as well as Toyota's published specs), so it should be fairly close to accurate.
200 lbs on the roof does effect the way the truck handles, but lots of people do it (think of all the folks with a 75+ lb tire on their roof). A body lift is a significant amount of weight, but keep in mind that you're just shifting the weight, it's not really the same as adding a bunch of weight at the highest point (where it gets the most leverage).
But if you take your example to it's conclusion, it'd be the difference between strapping 200 lbs to your roof or 2000 lbs. Like a lot of examples it doesn't really make sense when you apply it the whole way.
Anyway, if you have the choice of cutting vs body lift vs suspension lift, I'd choose cutting any day of the week. But as mentioned before, most of us can't or won't cut on our trucks, so you're left with raising some amount of weight up.
Plus not all of us have the time and/or skills and/or money to cut up our truck. A body lift is like $40 if you source everything yourself and installs in a couple hours. I'd have to pay someone to do the body work on my truck, or spend days/weeks/months doing it myself. Since I have limited resources (in both time and money), the body lift option becomes very attractive.
That's not to take anything away from folks like you who do have the time and skill to do the fab work yourself. Some of the stuff you've done is pretty awesome IMHO.
For me it's not so much the looks as the functionality and practicality of it. For example, I can't bob the back (which I want to do so bad) like Chad is doing 'cause I have a family, and we take this camping and need every bit of room we have. I can't cut out the rear wheel wells because I need the 3rd row intact for seating. And not much point in hacking up the front if you don't do any cutting on the back.
So much truck has to stay mostly intact. Such is life.
Might be useful for those who "wheel by braille" and install new fuel tanks every now and again.
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- #395
As I mentioned a few posts back, I have gotten more into using my 80 for overland stuff, desert wheeling, camping and what not. I totally dig the bob, in fact I would like a few more inches gone. However, it has become apparent that having a bit more coverage in the rear would be desirable, especially for passengers. I also want to get a rooftop tent, and I need a bit more roof for that. Anyway, Ive decided to redesign my rear end to meet both these needs. So I did some internet-leg work and today I loaded up the sawzall, and took a drive. Here is what I came back with.
Hope to get started next weekend.
Hope to get started next weekend.
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- #397
If adding a bit of roof back on to make the cruiser more comfortable, is going backwards.. Then yes, I am going backwards. Sorry for not being hardcore enough for you.
It is kind of backwards to cut roof off then add it haha. I love your build, and will watch no matter what way you go. I just appreciate talent and rigs that inspire me. Once I learn I'm gonna start doing my own fab. I've vowed to not pay for anymore stuff tht I can do on my own. Either way keep the progress coming no matter what way your going.
I call it fine tuning.
