Brake pads are worn; thinking of how much to replace

[dkkim]

Hi All,

2003 GX 470 here. Brake components are OEM AFAICT. Low 200k's miles.

Got a tire swap yesterday and was told my front pads are at 1mm and rear at 3mm.

Wondering how far to go in brake service. Pads to get by? Pads + rotors on general principles? Les Schwab gave me a recommended quote that involved those plus rebuilt Raybestos calipers, I think on general principles. I forgot to ask him about seizing as it didn't occur to me at the time, and I have no symptoms while driving.

Brake parts seem surprisingly affordable with lots of choices online, almost too many choices. On a prior rally car with Brembo calipers, I put in slotted rotors and braided lines, but that seems like overkill here. I'm thinking durability and reliability would be the prime consideration. The winter tires are a bit oversized (265/70R17, studded Hakkas) and actually so are the regular tires (265/70R17 6-ply KO2's), I suppose that might increase the required force. Icon stage 2 with a slight lift (can't recall the exact distance).

Questions:
-general principles? If we're doing it, should the calipers be replaced?
-for upgrading to GX460 parts (I see it mentioned), what years are able to be installed on the GX470?
-any brand recs? (I saw EBC recommended for pads, and general advice on the board to stay with blank rotors of any type)

We definitely benefit from this vehicle in the mountainous north (Montana) but don't do any serious off-roading. Just opportunistic off-roading....

Thanks!
David

 

[dkkim]

BTW I did also read this thread which has good info for anyone else with the same problem:
OEM Brake Pads + Rotors?
I'm still wondering *if* I should change the calipers and how to think about the calipers (generic part, key item as might be the case in upsizing on a sports car, etc).

 

[CJF]

Les Schwab gave me a recommended quote that involved those plus rebuilt Raybestos calipers, I think on general principles.

Last time I went to a Les Schwab, they said the same thing. When I asked why, they said they replace the calipers with rebuilt ones on ALL brake jobs, because "otherwise we can't warranty the work". It's a scam.

 

[Rednexus]

I recently did the GX460 brake upgrade while replacing all 4 rotors. I used all OEM Toyota parts (rotors and front calipers), with the exception of the pads (EBC Greens). Brake performance is exceptional with this setup. Total parts costs were $720 from my local Toyota dealer plus around $200 from Amazon for the EBC Greens. So, you are looking at a bit over $900 in parts. If you also need new rear calipers, add another $200 to that.

My recommendation would be to either DIY the brakes (it is not a hard job, other than the rear rotors which can be somewhat tricky to remove) or find an independent shop willing to do the work. Unfortunately, very few shops will install parts you bring in. You'd either need a small shop that does not care (this may be a 4x4 shop) or a shop who is willing to order the parts for you (note that will likely mark up the cost quite a bit).

Otherwise, you can have any shop just replace the pads and leave everything else stock. I'll say that my EBC/GX460 setup stops quite a bit than a generic stock GX470 setup. But, stopping wasn't bad with the stock setup.

Here is what I ordered. GX460 parts in the front, GX470 parts in the back.

Toyota Parts:

Front Brake Rotor (2) Part Number: 43512-60191

Rear Brake Rotor (2) Part Number: 42431-60201

Front Right Brake Caliper (1) Part Number: 47730-60300

Front Left Brake Caliper (1) Part Number: 47750-60300

Rear Pads:

EBC Brakes DP61657 6000 Series Greenstuff Truck and SUV Brake Pad​

Front Pads:

EBC Brakes DP6993 6000 Series Greenstuff Truck and SUV Brake Pad​

 

[kody472]

I installed 2010 GX460 front calipers and rotors from NAPA about 2 years ago. HUGE difference. Highly recommend. If I would do it all over again, I'd do what @Rednexus did above here just keep as much OEM as possible.

 

[dkkim]

@Rednexus and @kody472 thank you both very much for the reports! Red, thank you particularly for going to all the trouble to list the specific part #s. This sounds very solid, actually; choosing OEM hardware splits the difference between UnknownCo and super-optimization nicely, and several have recommended those Green pads.

Sounds like if I'm going to change the calipers I should do the 460 swap.

Questions/thoughts:
- Do you keep everything else stock? E.g. master cylinder/proportioning valves, etc. Ie. Is the GX460 caliper swap just a simple substitution? Do you have to adjust anything afterwards? I'm guessing no, just being compulsive..
- Is the GX460 swap for the front only? Or does it just pay limited dividends on the rear so less advisable. Bolt patterns etc the same?
- Any thoughts on changing the rear calipers when doing all this? Or just wait for them to show a problem? I suppose when you're in there, pulling the rotor, etc it's a savings on labor and time to just sub the caliper. I probably should check the parking brakes if I'm going to pull the rear rotor.

New to where I live now (in terms of slowly finding good resources and techs) so I'll look for a good indy shop or just do it myself. There should be some good shops in MT, I just have to find them. A bit limited on garage space and jack height during the winter.

Hey, here's a curveball:

- If I just change pads to buy some time (I will want to do more later for sure), is there still an advantage to the EBC over generic? (with the old rotors; not sure if these have a sufficiently different compound to matter).

Thank you!

 

[dkkim]

Last time I went to a Les Schwab, they said the same thing. When I asked why, they said they replace the calipers with rebuilt ones on ALL brake jobs, because "otherwise we can't warranty the work". It's a scam.

Yeah, I wonder. I can see the nominal logic but it still sounds a bit odd.
They've been taking good care of me on a couple of visits. I had a ton of prior business at Discount Tire and then moved here where there isn't one... so they've taken over without nickling-and-diming so. So I'm inclined to give them some business, but maybe I'll wait until I actually need wheels and tires.
Ref. the other topics here, I'm guessing I'll have more luck with an independent shop on BYOParts

 

[dkkim]

Ok, upping the ante... Any recommendation for stainless steel braided (over) lines? I had these on a rally car and liked them. Have read that they are overkill here and might increase wear on rubber with foreign material. As I don't do much off-roading, perhaps there is a feel benefit? Or maybe it's gucci since we all have ABS anyway.

 

[dkkim]

Otherwise, you can have any shop just replace the pads and leave everything else stock. I'll say that my EBC/GX460 setup stops quite a bit than a generic stock GX470 setup. But, stopping wasn't bad with the stock setup.

A more minimalist (expense-deferring) take:

Thoughts on just putting in the EBC Greenstuff pads in all 4 positions (or at least 2 front) and re-evaluating later?

 

[Rednexus]

A more minimalist (expense-deferring) take:

Thoughts on just putting in the EBC Greenstuff pads in all 4 positions (or at least 2 front) and re-evaluating later?

I ran that setup for awhile and was happy with it. However if you are getting new rotors anyway, it's worth it to go ahead and get GX460 front calipers too, as 460 and 470 rotors are about these same cost. If you aren't getting new rotors, just using EBC Greens with all other stock 470 parts will still be an improvement.

 

[kody472]

Agreed with Red. Get the 460 calipers and rotors. I don't think the rears match up with the holes to make that swap.

I also changed out the rubber line for stainless. Old lines were old, and the stainless works great. No need to change anything else.

 

[Hornd]

Just replace the Pads and save the $$$ for Future Repairs.
Find an independent shop but if you have tools or a Buddy with Tools I highly Recommend you try it yourself.
You will learn a Lifelong Lesson. If you hesitant Check out Chrisfix Videos on Youtube. He's Great.

The new Calipers will not work Better than the Old ones. They are a hydraulic Piston.

The Replace everything is Western thinking and Wasteful and against the Japanese Mythology.

Sometimes due to Labor you replace some seals or what not because it's only 5 mins more but this is not the case.

If you rotors are Good spend 20 mins and put on new pads.

If Rotors have pad Build up ie pulsation have them turned and add new Pads.

Save the $$$ for Maintenance like changing Coolant and Differential Oil.

 

[kody472]

I replaced my calipers in order to replace my rotors for the thicker 460s. The 460 rotors are much thicker than the 470. I was tired of them warping since I was pulling a camper trailer.

 

[Rednexus]

I was too surprised how much better the EBC-460 combo stopped than my previous EBC-470 combo. The EBC-470 combo was certainly good, but the EBC-460 combo will throw you through the windshield. I've towed up to 5,800# with this combo, too. I didn't expect thicker rotors alone to do that, so something else must be improved in the design of the GX460 calipers over the GX470 calipers.

 

[M3GX]

Agreed with Red. Get the 460 calipers and rotors. I don't think the rears match up with the holes to make that swap.

I also changed out the rubber line for stainless. Old lines were old, and the stainless works great. No need to change anything else.

For clarification, the rear holes and everything match up. BUT center diameter is slightly different. The rears will install just fine, and then you go to drive it and have this scraping noise you try and chase down for months. Don't ask me how I know lol.

GX460 brake swap is only for the front.

 

[kody472]

For clarification, the rear holes and everything match up. BUT center diameter is slightly different. The rears will install just fine, and then you go to drive it and have this scraping noise you try and chase down for months. Don't ask me how I know lol.

GX460 brake swap is only for the front.

There it is. I knew is was something finicky with the rears.

 

[dkkim]

I highly Recommend you try it yourself.
You will learn a Lifelong Lesson. If you hesitant Check out Chrisfix Videos on Youtube. He's Great.

The new Calipers will not work Better than the Old ones. They are a hydraulic Piston.

The Replace everything is Western thinking and Wasteful and against the Japanese Mythology.

Thank you for the very thoughtful reply.

I heartily agree that doing this work oneself changes perspective a lot. Ie. it's empowering. I have done brakes on multiple occasions, and used to wrench every chance I got when I was younger. Later, I made sure to drag each of my kids through at least one axle's worth of brake work, LOL. These days I'm more leery of time, supply lead, getting in over my head and not focusing on other areas. But a person can get lazy...

The other philosophical point is interesting. You're right, my habit is to refresh/renew/upgrade things when I'm taking them apart. But maybe it's too much knee-jerk at this point. Esp. in the Amazon era. Last routine service I had an experienced guy look at the underside on a lift; he would have seen any obvious leak. And there is no pulsation. So I should look and see if there's any sign of leak or seizure.

The 460 rotors are much thicker than the 470.

That is a beefier rotor. I can see the advantage on the summer hill descents with a trailer...

so something else must be improved in the design of the GX460 calipers over the GX470 calipers.

Eyeballing, did you see an obvious change in either the pad area (grip area) or the piston diameter (speaking to force applied) when you swapped the 460 units for the 470?

BUT center diameter is slightly different. The rears will install just fine, and then you go to drive it and have this scraping noise you try and chase down for months. Don't ask me how I know lol.

Oh my. That sounds like the kind of thing I would do... have done in other circumstances. Thank you for the cautionary tale.

Have forgotten how good this forum is. Reminds me of some older Subaru enthusiast forums (prior STi owner here...)

 

[Rednexus]

I do recall reading somewhere that the pistons are a larger diameter, but I did not personally measure them. If so, that would explain the better braking power. The pads are held in differently as well, so the calipers are a pretty significant re-design.

 

[dkkim]

Looks like the front pad dimensions are the same (for the DP61657 pads) for the 460 and 470. The EBC site had another 460 entry which confused me, but the 2010 GX460 lined up the same as the 2003 GX470. Which makes sense, I think.

So a good first step is to get EBC pads front and rear given current wear.

Base-case, I will put in the EBC pads for a while. If delayed or I line up the holes in the swiss cheese, I'll refresh the system incl. the upsize to 460 front calipers and rotors.

When pressing the pads out, do you guys bleed the excess fluid? I think I had new fluid a couple yrs ago. Although some forward flush probably is a salutary thing.

 

[Rednexus]

The front pads have a different retention mechanism between the 460 and 470, so you'd need to also get new pads if you do the 460 upgrade later on. EBC pads also have to be bedded to each rotor (they have a abrasive first layer on the pads), replacing rotors usually also requires a pad replacement. I made the mistake of putting a set of EBCs on a thin set of rotors in 2024, and had to buy a whole new set in 2025 when I did the rotors due to them being warped. So, I'd suggest measuring your rotors first to make sure they have plenty of life left.

Regarding fluid, I flush the entire system every 3 years or so. When compressing the caliper pistons to make room for new pads, I let the excess go back to the reservoir.