Bearing retainer snout damage

[RWBeringer4x4]

Hey all -

I almost missed this, but in preparation to reassemble my driveline for test-fitting I found some pretty significant looking wear on the snout (where the throw-out bearing rides) of the bearing retainer tonight. I wanted to get your input on what this indicates.

A little history: When pulled, the T/O bearing was pretty sloppy, Pilot bearing was also toast. It appears to be the "roller bearing" style and the inner race and balls disintegrated long ago, leaving only an outer race. There was contact- wear on BOTH SIDES of the clutch springs, and the clutch made a "chugging" noise when in neutral.

Here are my concerns:

There are fairly deep (catch a fingernail) horizontal gouges in the snout:

To make things more interesting, the tip appears to have been worn into a taper on JUST the bottom. Hard to see since it's underneath - but I tried to get some pictures:

More horizontal cuts above, closer up shot of the wear mark on the retainer. Since it's only on the bottom of the retainer, could this indicate that the clutch was somehow misaligned?

Is this bearing retainer toast? Luckily I have a spare laying around, but I'm curious for future reference if this is as bad as it looks - after all, the T/O bearing SHOULD only be spinning when the clutch gets engaged...what causes this degree of wear?

My next question is the pilot bearing -

The input shaft's tip looks pretty OK to me:

But the new pilot bearing is a pretty loose fit. I can spin it very easily, and there is a tiny bit of play

Since this is my first time inside a clutch/trans - how "tight" should that pilot bearing fit? Currently it spins effortlessly. Will this tighten up when the bearing is pressed into the crank?

As always, thoughts, inputs, and opinions are aplreciated!

 

[pb4ugo]

The face of the throw out bearing is the only thing that spins when it contacts the pressure plate fingers. The bearing retainer just slides back and forth on the snout, and should be loose. Lightly greased. The pilot bushing should not be real tight. Be sure to put grease on the tip of the input shaft. My guess the chugging sound was the t/out bearing catching the fingers of the pp and spinning the bearing. Be sure when you assemble that you have the proper clips to attach the bearing retainer to the fork. They keep the bearing retainer attached to the fork and away from the pp. They should not touch each other unless the pedal is depressed. I'd run it.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Fundamentally I agree with you, but if nothing is rotating on that face - what would cause all the wear? Particularly the wear on that front edge.

As for the clips, when pulled, there was a single clip on the throw out bearing retainer. I figured one was missing... Are replacements still available?

 

[pb4ugo]

I think the clips are still available. The t/o bearing/retainer just slides back and forth on the smooth part of the snout. Thats why you see horizontal marks on it. What does the inside of the t/o bearing retainer look like? It wouldn't hurt to swap the trans bearing retainer for a better one. You will have to drain the trans. It has nothing to do with clutch alignment. You align the clutch only so you can stab the trans into the clutch and then the pilot. Once the trans is in place, and you depress the clutch pedal the disc spins freely, and rides on the input shaft splines.

 

[too tall]

I wouldn't hesitate to run that retainer . I've seen way worse and they still work just fine . if the TO bearing retainer slides easily then do not worry about it . The bushing is Oilite . Oilite is a sintered bronze made to have its pores filled with oil and used like that. The filling is usually done at an elevated tempeature. They are MADE for areas that do not ordinarily have a dedicated oil supply . Maybe a bit of oil , I believe mineral oil is generally impregnated into that type bushing . I have never used grease as per an old machinist I know .

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

I think the clips are still available. The t/o bearing/retainer just slides back and forth on the smooth part of the snout. Thats why you see horizontal marks on it. What does the inside of the t/o bearing retainer look like? It wouldn't hurt to swap the trans bearing retainer for a better one. You will have to drain the trans. It has nothing to do with clutch alignment. You align the clutch only so you can stab the trans into the clutch and then the pilot. Once the trans is in place, and you depress the clutch pedal the disc spins freely, and rides on the input shaft splines.

The bearing retainer is similar - looks good at first glance but has the same hairline scratches in it:

I have one of the clips in question - is this it? Or is it broken? Not a whole lot to hold it on the bearing retainer:

I wouldn't hesitate to run that retainer . I've seen way worse and they still work just fine . if the TO bearing retainer slides easily then do not worry about it . The bushing is Oilite . Oilite is a sintered bronze made to have its pores filled with oil and used like that. The filling is usually done at an elevated tempeature. They are MADE for areas that do not ordinarily have a dedicated oil supply . Maybe a bit of oil , I believe mineral oil is generally impregnated into that type bushing . I have never used grease as per an old machinist I know .

Yep, I'm familiar with oilite and this bearing is definitely made of it. I've always heard not to lube it at all. My question was just how "snug" the fit should be. Since the tip of my input shaft has been riding on a disinitgrated pilot bushing prior to this, I just wanted to make sure it hadn't machined itself down.

It's a pretty loose fit with just a touch of play, but I suspect it might fit tighter once the bearing is pressed into the crank.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Given that this assembly really shouldn't be spinning, I'm still pretty curious how that wear at the tip of the retainer snout was created.

The horizontal scratching makes sense, since all it would need to do is pick up some debris and drag it back and forth, but that big worn spot is a mystery!

 

[too tall]

That clip looks fine . You can bend it closed a little to tighten it up a bit if you are concerned about it falling off (the bottom one anyway )I would imagine that is what happened to the one you lost . If the retainer got hung up a bit because it engaged too far and caught groove on the inside of the TO retainer . Make sure it is adjusted properly when you get it back together and you should be fine .

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

That clip looks fine . You can bend it closed a little to tighten it up a bit if you are concerned about it falling off (the bottom one anyway )I would imagine that is what happened to the one you lost . If the retainer got hung up a bit because it engaged too far and caught groove on the inside of the TO retainer . Make sure it is adjusted properly when you get it back together and you should be fine .

Yep - and it looks like the clips are still available from Toyota so I should be able to source a new one (plus, at $2/ea might as well just get two)

 

[AZOKIE]

I had a drive train vibration when I put a 350 in my 76 fj55 in the late 80s. I took my drive shaft back to to shop that had done the work on it to check balance with no joy, so I drove for over a year with the intermittent vibration. I had the TO bearing go bad on me and found the pilot bearing had be shoved into the driveshaft so it was not carrying the shaft nose. I would think that with a trashed needle pilot bearing might account for the wear on the retainer snout. I wish that Al G had invented the internet a lot earlier so Life would have been easier for us shade tree mechanics back then.

 

[gator25]

I don't know if you have had your flywheel resurfaced yet, but if you haven't and plan to (I would) have them balance it when they do. That snout looks great compared to the one I'm running.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

I had a drive train vibration when I put a 350 in my 76 fj55 in the late 80s. I took my drive shaft back to to shop that had done the work on it to check balance with no joy, so I drove for over a year with the intermittent vibration. I had the TO bearing go bad on me and found the pilot bearing had be shoved into the driveshaft so it was not carrying the shaft nose. I would think that with a trashed needle pilot bearing might account for the wear on the retainer snout. I wish that Al G had invented the internet a lot earlier so Life would have been easier for us shade tree mechanics back then.

Haha, amen to that! Glad to hear I probably didn't do too much irreversible damage. I still haven't separated the trans/Xfer case to determine how much shaft play I have but the input shaft play is pretty minimal and the gears look OK.

I don't know if you have had your flywheel resurfaced yet, but if you haven't and plan to (I would) have them balance it when they do. That snout looks great compared to the one I'm running.

I haven't yet - but I plan to. It's surprisingly difficult to find a shop that will do the work anymore...I've had trouble finding anyone willing to restore radiators, modify driveshafts, or machine virtually anything.

 

[gator25]

I haven't yet - but I plan to. It's surprisingly difficult to find a shop that will do the work anymore...I've had trouble finding anyone willing to restore radiators, modify driveshafts, or machine virtually anything.[/QUOTE]

We're lucky around here, we have 4 machine shops in the small town I live 5 miles outside of. 3 more within 15 miles, then there's a slew of them in Shreveport. But out of all those shops I will only use 2. I know of three shops that will build and balance shafts but only use Clutch and Drive, guy that runs the place is freaking nuts but he's good. We have a fellow that has been doing radiators since he was a young man, that really does a great job but he's in his late 70's. He lives in the next town over and plans to retire soon.

 

[too tall]

Rwberinger , I was thinking about your posts a bit and was wondering if you have a return spring on the clutch fork ? I had an issue with a clutch on a 40 one time where the fluid was not getting pushed back into the slave because there was no spring . It was putting too much fluid into the slave and eventually made the clutch so it wouldn't hold when released . I am fairly certain it was from the fork pushing the fingers in too far too many times . As far as wear , the disk was still in good shape . I actually realized the issue when the slave piston pushed itself out entirely .

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Rwberinger , I was thinking about your posts a bit and was wondering if you have a return spring on the clutch fork ? I had an issue with a clutch on a 40 one time where the fluid was not getting pushed back into the slave because there was no spring . It was putting too much fluid into the slave and eventually made the clutch so it wouldn't hold when released . I am fairly certain it was from the fork pushing the fingers in too far too many times . As far as wear , the disk was still in good shape . I actually realized the issue when the slave piston pushed itself out entirely .

You may be on to something there. No, the truck never had a clutch spring. When I first purchased it, I tried to install one, and it made the clutch impossible to adjust. With the spring on, the clutch was always not engaged/grinding gears, or slipping. Finally I gave up on proper adjustment and ran it with the bearing "chug" and no clutch spring, told myself I'd get back to it...then drove it that way for 4 years until now . I figured destroying the clutch/pressure plate was a way cheaper option than grenading my transmission's gears. 4 years of driving has been about 1000 miles so not really long enough to bring it to complete failure. I never thought about the spring's role in pushing FLUID backward in the system, just figured it added a touch of mechanical tension to keep the fork where it belonged.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Just an update here -
Turns out it wasn't a roller bearing...just a standard pilot bearing that had been reamed out about 1mm on the inner diameter, and bored out a couple mm as well, by the input shaft...