Axle/driveshaft play - how much is too much?

[Girl und Panzer]

I'm doing my knuckle seals in a few weeks because they're beginning to weep, and I've long had a clunk in the driveline somewhere. I read an old thread that mentioned the drive plates can factor into that. My truck has about 240k miles and as far as I know original drive plates and birfields. I took a video, clicking back and forth between R&D since I don't actually know what this is supposed to look like. Is this a regular amount of play or is it time to replace?

Axle play · Thursday, Sep 12, 2024 📸

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[Malleus]

1) there's a lot of wind up in the driveline. Clunks could be anywhere, but my choice of Easter egg hunting would be to start at the transfer case and move outward from there. Check the U-joints first; grab both sides and try to twist them apart. There shouldn't be any movement.

It'll be hard to check the differentials and Birfields without visually inspecting them, but if the U-joints are good and the drive flanges are good, that's where the problem is.

2) the only way to tell if your drive flanges are worn is to take them off and inspect the splines. It's hard to say what's going on in the video, because it's short and fast, but it's a good bet they're worn after a quarter million miles. Get new ones and gaskets, too.

If you're resealing the knuckles, you'll be able to inspect the Birfields and you'll know if they are a problem. I'd advise you plan on swapping the sides while you have them out. Even if they aren't clicking now, they will be before you reseal them again, and you'll have new 250k joints again. Remember the circlips are not reusable. By new ones. FWIW, the EPC indicates there are two on each shaft, but there is in fact only one.

 

[Girl und Panzer]

1) there's a lot of wind up in the driveline. Clunks could be anywhere, but my choice of Easter egg hunting would be to start at the transfer case and move outward from there. Check the U-joints first; grab both sides and try to twist them apart. There shouldn't be any movement.

It'll be hard to check the differentials and Birfields without visually inspecting them, but if the U-joints are good and the drive flanges are good, that's where the problem is.

2) the only way to tell if your drive flanges are worn is to take them off and inspect the splines. It's hard to say what's going on in the video, because it's short and fast, but it's a good bet they're worn after a quarter million miles. Get new ones and gaskets, too.

If you're resealing the knuckles, you'll be able to inspect the Birfields and you'll know if they are a problem. I'd advise you plan on swapping the sides while you have them out. Even if they aren't clicking now, they will be before you reseal them again, and you'll have new 250k joints again. Remember the circlips are not reusable. By new ones. FWIW, the EPC indicates there are two on each shaft, but there is in fact only one.

All that makes sense, and I do have a u joint beginning to let go that'll be part of this project. Unfortunately I don't have much time to check them and react (dad has the tools and the space a few states away but I don't have much leave time) but it sounds like it's likely worth it to just change them out at this point despite no turning clicking. Are decent aftermarket like terrain tamer worth a damn or is it better to just fork out the 800ish (Iirc) for OEM?

 

[Rusty Marlin]

You can swap sides with the Birfs. Don't need to get new. The outer cup and stub axels are the same on both sides.

 

[Girl und Panzer]

You can swap sides with the Birfs. Don't need to get new. The outer cup and stub axels are the same on both sides.

Will that deal with any flange wear though? I beat on it a little when I was 19 and didn't know better (almost 15 years ago) and I wheel it once in a blue moon. So maybe the splines are not as worn as I think they are?

 

[jonheld]

Always start with the low hanging fruit.
You have a known bad universal joint, either from lack of maintenance or abuse/damage. More than likely, the other 3 are not much better.
Front drive shaft universal: 04371-60070 (qty 2)
Rear drive shaft universal: 04371-60210 (qty 2)

There should be no torsional play in the slip yokes of either shaft. Worn slip yokes will cause driveline vibration when coasting at speed along with a metallic sounding "klunk" when going from R-D if they're dry.

 

[Malleus]

No, swapping the sides won't improve the outermost spline fit. It will improve the bearing fit of the joint in forward motion, however. I'd recommend you pull the drive flanges and visually check them so that you'll know in advance of the job whether your driveshaft splines are worn. The drive flanges are softer than the shafts, so they are supposed to wear first, being the less expensive items. There are many sacrificial components in critical systems like this. They exist to ensure the systems fail safely, if they fail, and to save you money on repairs.

It's unlikely your shafts need to be replaced, if they aren't noisy. But you'll know that when you inspect them. Get new gaskets for the inspection and you can reuse them, if you want, when you replace the seals.

One note about Terrain Tamer seal kits: the backing plates are thinner than the Toyota plates and they bend very easily; this is the only gripe I have against their kits. Also, the currently listed Toyota retaining screws for those plates are too short by enough that it makes starting a thread with the seals and plates installed almost impossible. If you can reuse the screws, do so.

If you break one, which is highly likely, replace it with 91655-40620. Don't worry about trying to get them out in one piece. These screws are so ridiculously undersized that they will break if there is the slightest rust in the holes. Have a 5-mm tap drill and M6x1.0 tap on hand when you do this job. I have a rust free 80 and I broke half of these screws getting them out.

Use a 1/4" drive socket/ratchet to install these screws. They are ridiculously easy to break. Ignore the torque specification in the FSM and just turn them until you feel them tighten.

 

[Girl und Panzer]

No, swapping the sides won't improve the outermost spline fit. It will improve the bearing fit of the joint in forward motion, however. I'd recommend you pull the drive flanges and visually check them so that you'll know in advance of the job whether your driveshaft splines are worn. The drive flanges are softer than the shafts, so they are supposed to wear first, being the less expensive items. There are many sacrificial components in critical systems like this. They exist to ensure the systems fail safely, if they fail, and to save you money on repairs.

It's unlikely your shafts need to be replaced, if they aren't noisy. But you'll know that when you inspect them. Get new gaskets for the inspection and you can reuse them, if you want, when you replace the seals.

One note about Terrain Tamer seal kits: the backing plates are thinner than the Toyota plates and they bend very easily; this is the only gripe I have against their kits. Also, the currently listed Toyota retaining screws for those plates are too short by enough that it makes starting a thread with the seals and plates installed almost impossible. If you can reuse the screws, do so.

If you break one, which is highly likely, replace it with 91655-40620. Don't worry about trying to get them out in one piece. These screws are so ridiculously undersized that they will break if there is the slightest rust in the holes. Have a 5-mm tap drill and M6x1.0 tap on hand when you do this job. I have a rust free 80 and I broke half of these screws getting them out.

Use a 1/4" drive socket/ratchet to install these screws. They are ridiculously easy to break. Ignore the torque specification in the FSM and just turn them until you feel them tighten.

Good info, thank you! I got my seal kit from cruiser corps which I thiiink is OEM? How about replacing those bolts with equivalent stainless (and antiseize)?

I didn't know the plates wear faster. I'll do some research to make sure that's something I can do in a parking lot and inspect the - I don't even have a jack. One day I'd like to live in my own house without condo association nazis...

 

[jonheld]

Good info, thank you! I got my seal kit from cruiser corps which I thiiink is OEM? How about replacing those bolts with equivalent stainless (and antiseize)?

I didn't know the plates wear faster. I'll do some research to make sure that's something I can do in a parking lot and inspect the - I don't even have a jack. One day I'd like to live in my own house without condo association nazis...

You can also reach out to the Capitol Land Cruiser Club

VA/DC/MD- Capital Land Cruiser Club

forum.ih8mud.com

They are a very good bunch of folks and would be happy to help you.

 

[Malleus]

Good info, thank you! I got my seal kit from cruiser corps which I thiiink is OEM? How about replacing those bolts with equivalent stainless (and antiseize)?

I didn't know the plates wear faster. I'll do some research to make sure that's something I can do in a parking lot and inspect the - I don't even have a jack. One day I'd like to live in my own house without condo association nazis...

The drive plates (flanges) have internal splines to match the external splines on the shafts. There is a small amount of clearance to make installation easier and to cut down costs of manufacture. That clearance increases with use, because of the back and forth motion when you change from drive to reverse and back. It's normal; no matter how carefully you drive, it'll happen sooner or later.

Yes, you can remove the drive plates without a jack (and you do have one - it's in the left rearmost hidey-hole, or it's supposed to be). You can even do it with the wheel on (not recommended). Back the nut off a turn or two and bang on the end of the stud with a brass rod and a heavy hammer (or an air chisel, which you may not have but which someone in the DC club has, for sure) until the cone washer lets go. Repeat for all six studs.

I don't know what Cruiser Corps is selling, so I can't help you there. I buy Toyota parts from Dave Stedman, unless I need something tomorrow (and that's my fault for poor planning); then I buy from the local dealership, and eat the cost for my penance.

Don't use stainless screws, it won't help. The problem is that Toyota should never have used M6 screws on any external fastening. It's bad design practice. Normally I don't criticize other designers because so much goes into the process that it's impossible to really place blame, but this is an instance where they screwed up. There is no place on the outside of an offroad vehicle that a 6-mm, machine threaded, fastener is adequate (I'm specifically excluding body fasteners - the wood screws of metal work).

At the risk of inciting an internet flaming riot, I will also say that Never-Seez (and the like) was specifically designed and developed for boiler fittings, which rust constantly because of the heat cycles present which suck water onto the bare metal. The use has its place - I use it religiously on exhaust component fasteners. Using it anywhere else is a waste of money, time and effort. And it's the messiest stuff known to man.

 

[Girl und Panzer]

The drive plates (flanges) have internal splines to match the external splines on the shafts. There is a small amount of clearance to make installation easier and to cut down costs of manufacture. That clearance increases with use, because of the back and forth motion when you change from drive to reverse and back. It's normal; no matter how carefully you drive, it'll happen sooner or later.

Yes, you can remove the drive plates without a jack (and you do have one - it's in the left rearmost hidey-hole, or it's supposed to be). You can even do it with the wheel on (not recommended). Back the nut off a turn or two and bang on the end of the stud with a brass rod and a heavy hammer (or an air chisel, which you may not have but which someone in the DC club has, for sure) until the cone washer lets go. Repeat for all six studs.

I don't know what Cruiser Corps is selling, so I can't help you there. I buy Toyota parts from Dave Stedman, unless I need something tomorrow (and that's my fault for poor planning); then I buy from the local dealership, and eat the cost for my penance.

Don't use stainless screws, it won't help. The problem is that Toyota should never have used M6 screws on any external fastening. It's bad design practice. Normally I don't criticize other designers because so much goes into the process that it's impossible to really place blame, but this is an instance where they screwed up. There is no place on the outside of an offroad vehicle that a 6-mm, machine threaded, fastener is adequate (I'm specifically excluding body fasteners - the wood screws of metal work).

At the risk of inciting an internet flaming riot, I will also say that Never-Seez (and the like) was specifically designed and developed for boiler fittings, which rust constantly because of the heat cycles present which suck water onto the bare metal. The use has its place - I use it religiously on exhaust component fasteners. Using it anywhere else is a waste of money, time and effort. And it's the messiest stuff known to man.

Makes sense, I'll take a look this weekend and order a few of those bolts from him for good measure in case probably also flanges.

Btw, I've seen some folks say replace all those hub studs and hardware with this job, what's your take on that? Mine are likely original too

 

[Brindleboxer]

Just to throw it out there, I like to go through Kurt @cruiseroutfit (cruiseroutfitters), they are good people and they ship fast. Give them your VIN and they can ensure you get the right parts. They provided me a kit for my last front axle rebuild and I added items that I knew were worn.
There are numerous posts on taking the flanges off to either inspect or replace as part of a front end rebuild. OTRAAM (OTRAMM - https://www.youtube.com/@OTRAMM) has some good videos on YouTube for various repairs.

 

[Malleus]

The studs only need to be replaced if the threads are damaged beyond repair (I also always run a tap into threaded holes and a die over male threads - always). Since the nuts effectively cover the entire exposed stud, that's unlikely, unless someone was in there before you and mucked them up. This is generally my perspective on replacing parts: if they appear to be unserviceable, I replace them.

I replace the nuts and cone washers, but for different reasons.

I've only seen one 80 that someone didn't abuse the nuts to the point that the flats were round. That's my daily driver, and it's because I'm the second owner and the first one never touched it; the dealership did only periodic maintenance work required. I'm the only one who has ever touched most of my truck. If your nuts look good, leave them.

I replace the cone washers because they are springs and springs relax over time. If I see any that are original, I replace them. Most people don't. Your decision won't stop the world from spinning either way.

From Ourisman Toyota of Richmod - they deliver by USPS:

I'd plan on replacing the bearing nuts (at least the outer two), even if you clean and resuse the wheel bearings. Most mechanics use the tractor repair philosophy: if a hammer is closer than the right tool, the hammer is the right tool. That means the outer nuts were probably removed and reinstalled using a chisel, instead of the locknut socket. Some kits have these nuts in them.

Since you're going to be in there, you'll need to consider what to do about the bearings. These bearings are not special items; you can buy them from bearings distributors, if you want to do so (I do, they're cheaper that way). If you replace either the cup or cone, you should replace the other too. These bearings, unlike special bearings, are not ground together as a set; they are actually sold as two separate pieces, although you can also buy them as a set. You can replace one part, if you have to, such as a trail failure, etc. Generally, it's accepted that if one part is worn, the other is on its way.

Either Timken or Koyo are fine to use (Timkens were the original specification, but Koyos are equivalent and both are available from Toyota), but the bearings do not need to be replaced if they are serviceable. As long as there is no foreign material in the bearing and it is not discolored, it's probably OK to reuse. Your driving experience will tell you if your bearings have failed.

Some kits, Terrain Tamer come to mind, have the knuckle seals, felts and backing plates, as well as the bearings and seals in them. IIRC, Terrain Tamer's kit has the upper and lower bearings in it as well, although it's generally not necessary to replace them. If you can get a kit without them, it'll save you some money. I'm not specifically endorsing them, I've used them in the past, and they were on my mind. I know their parts are not Toyota parts.

 

[Malleus]

Speaking of @OTRAMM, he's pretty close to you. In the past, he's sponsored a HAMOM, or two. You might give him a call and see what you can work out, since you're garage challenged.

 

[mudgudgeon]

I took a video, clicking back and forth between R&D since I don't actually know what this is supposed to look like. Is this a regular amount of play or is it time to replace?

Borderline. Ideally, probably time to replace Birfs and flanges IMO.
Installing new flanges may alleviate the clunk a little, but it's a bandaid, and only addresses part of the problem.
If you can tolerate a bit of a clunk, yours will survive a lot longer.
Did you day what year your cruiser is? Drive flanges were upgraded in late '93.

I didn't know the plates wear faster.

They don't necessarily.
I've had aftermarket shafts with almist no spline left on them, but flanges still looked semi-serviceable.


I agree worth @jonheld if you can see a uni joint is suspect, 100% guaranteed it is toast, and the others won't be far behind.
IMO, it's almost impossible to properly asses uni joints without removing drive shafts, so if you can visually see one is in bad shape, it really is in bad shape.

Use OEM, or matsuba uni joints. They won't be anywhere near $800 if sourced through partsouq.com or Dave Stedman at Japan4x4 ( linked above), or other online sources.
~$50 ea on partsouq