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Well, this went to chat real quick, didn't it?
Aussie Locker in the front of an AWD vehicle
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Well, this went to chat real quick, didn't it?
Man, don't sweat all these guys. They are just a bunch of web-wheelers/gossip-girls/mall-crawelrs. IF you feel froggy enough, go test it yourself....you wont end up on the evening news, and it is VERY unlikely you'll have any problems handling your rig.
First off, an auto-locked front isn't as white-knuckle as these guys make it out to be (taking it easy under 'controlled' settings), on pavement, just to test this out.
Secondly, all you will do on pavement IS test it.
The first time my front Aussie locked when I was going about 35mph around a 90* turn was also the last. The jerky front to rear/rear to front unloading and binding just isn't pleasant and I chose to unlock my hubs and lock my center diff that same day.
've driven many street-legal vehicles that are less predictable and less stable than my 80 was with auto lockers front and rear in its tall, top-heavy glory. But those are vehicles I would never choose to drive. And I fell in love with my 80 because it drove more like a 2000# sedan than the 6000# tank that it is. Why compromise that with a $250 locker?
First off, an auto-locked front isn't as white-knuckle as these guys make it out to be (taking it easy under 'controlled' settings), on pavement, just to test this out.
Secondly, all you will do on pavement IS test it.
The first time my front Aussie locked when I was going about 35mph around a 90* turn was also the last. The jerky front to rear/rear to front unloading and binding just isn't pleasant and I chose to unlock my hubs and lock my center diff that same day.
've driven many street-legal vehicles that are less predictable and less stable than my 80 was with auto lockers front and rear in its tall, top-heavy glory. But those are vehicles I would never choose to drive. And I fell in love with my 80 because it drove more like a 2000# sedan than the 6000# tank that it is. Why compromise that with a $250 locker?
DanKunz, Tools, Spike, Creepersleeper, LT1 and treehugger are web wheelers and mall crawlers?
Huh.
They must be pretty good at photoshop I guess.
No offense, but each of the above has far more experience than you, and you have a history of being on the "no common sense" side of quite a few debates here.
Just curious, what were the vehicles that were less predictable than the 80 with double auto lockers?
I used to run a Lockright in the rear of my pick up for many years. The lockright operates exactly the same as the aussie locker.
In my experience, the locker did not always unlock when in turns. Often you heard extremely loud popping or clanking noise when the locker would eventually unlock under pressure. At first this drove me crazy, because it always sounded (and felt like, with the jerking motion of the rear) that the diff had snapped in two...but I got used to it.
Sometimes in a wide sweeping turn, the diff would unlock unexpectedly and send the rear of the truck slightly fishtailing down the road as it attempted to correct itself.
Based on this experience, I would come to the conclusion that running a lunch box type locker up front on a vehicle that does not use unlocking hubs would be suicidially dangerous and incredibly stupid.
It might work some of the time, definately won't work all the time, and anything that risks locking your front steering or reducing your turning radius or risks understeer is just a stupid thing to do, IMO.
Think about the constant turning of the front end, even to just make basic corrections going straight down the road. Then think about the turning radius angles of the front end, compared to the rear. The front diff is working constantly to differentiate the front end and the speed difference between the wheels is often far greater than the rear, which means the locker would have to remain unlocked 99% of the time for your front end to operate properly.
Yet, the locker is designed to be locked most of the time and only unlock under certain conditions. This means that it will remain locked most of the time it should not be and this will cause everything from increase wear on your tires, birfields to reduced turning radius, harder steering feel and understeer.
In my experience, the locker did not always unlock when in turns. Often you heard extremely loud popping or clanking noise when the locker would eventually unlock under pressure. At first this drove me crazy, because it always sounded (and felt like, with the jerking motion of the rear) that the diff had snapped in two...but I got used to it.
Sometimes in a wide sweeping turn, the diff would unlock unexpectedly and send the rear of the truck slightly fishtailing down the road as it attempted to correct itself.
Based on this experience, I would come to the conclusion that running a lunch box type locker up front on a vehicle that does not use unlocking hubs would be suicidially dangerous and incredibly stupid.
It might work some of the time, definately won't work all the time, and anything that risks locking your front steering or reducing your turning radius or risks understeer is just a stupid thing to do, IMO.
Think about the constant turning of the front end, even to just make basic corrections going straight down the road. Then think about the turning radius angles of the front end, compared to the rear. The front diff is working constantly to differentiate the front end and the speed difference between the wheels is often far greater than the rear, which means the locker would have to remain unlocked 99% of the time for your front end to operate properly.
Yet, the locker is designed to be locked most of the time and only unlock under certain conditions. This means that it will remain locked most of the time it should not be and this will cause everything from increase wear on your tires, birfields to reduced turning radius, harder steering feel and understeer.
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Maybe so but at the same time he seems to be the only that that has actually HAD a double auto locked 80
That is not how auto lockers work.
If by "locked" you mean that both wheels are turning the same speed then this only happens when one wheel loses traction and slips. Otherwise when a wheel is not slipping, they spend 99% of their time with one side locked and driving and the side with the faster rotating tire free wheeling and ratcheting. They switch which side is driving when you turn a different direction and when you go back and forth from coast to drive. They don't like going back and forth from coast to drive in turns, which is why they pop and bang and twitch when you gas it in a turn. If you adjust your driving style to keep a constant drive pressure on the ring gear around turns, you won't have these problems. If you adjust your driving style to keep constant drive pressure on the ring gear around turns, you won't have these problems.
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Maybe so but at the same time he seems to be the only that that has actually HAD a double auto locked 80
And, oddly, he's saying the same thing we said, while attributing some commentary to us that we didn't say. I never said it was 'white knuckle' driving, as a matter of fact my biggest concern would be relaxing and having the locker lock up in a turn. We said it would be unpredictable. He said it was unpleasant, with "jerky front to rear/rear to front unloading". Sounds unpleasant, and inherently unsafe, but maybe I'm a web-wheelers/gossip-girl/mall-crawelr.
I'm waiting to hear from this guy interconnect (whom I can't find in a member search
), sounds like he may have tried an autolocker in the front with less than favorable results.
And, oddly, he's saying the same thing we said, while attributing some commentary to us that we didn't say. I never said it was 'white knuckle' driving, as a matter of fact my biggest concern would be relaxing and having the locker lock up in a turn. We said it would be unpredictable. He said it was unpleasant, with "jerky front to rear/rear to front unloading". Sounds unpleasant, and inherently unsafe, but maybe I'm a web-wheelers/gossip-girl/mall-crawelr.
I'm waiting to hear from this guy interconnect (whom I can't find in a member search
All correct, I was just responding to KillersLC response, not agreeing that you are a mall crawler.
My understanding is that is not correct. At least the first part. What you are describing would be a limited slip, such as a Tru-trac.
The lunchbox style auto lockers, are locked up at all times that the carrier is under a load, either forward or reverse and the two tires are turning at the same speed. So, if you are driving straight and then suddenly turn the wheel, in the case of the locker being in the front end, you have to hope the locker actually functions correctly and unlocks for you to be able differential the axles and turn properly.
When locked together by default, when under a load, if one tire loses traction or is in the air, there is nothing to cause it's rotational speed to be any different than the tire with traction, so the axles remain locked.
In a limited slip, the rotational speed difference of a slipping tire and non sliping tire on an otherwise non-locked axle causes clutch packs to engage and somewhat lock the two axles together or to send torque to the slower turning axle.
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An aussie locker, lockrite, whatever, is only unlocked when turning if there is no significant power going to the differential. Therefore, if you hit the gas at all in a turn, the locker will lock up, your front tires will be screeching, steering will be difficult, and you will not want to drive an AWD vehicle with a front autolocker any longer.
No, that is not how automatic lockers work. Read the part of the Aussie FAQ where it says that the faster wheel is always free to ratchet. This is true, regardless of whether or how much power applied up to the point where one tire slips. 99% of the time one wheel or the other is turning faster. Even if it is only turning a tiny bit faster, that side unlocks and ratchets. What you think is "locking" is actually just switching drive sides.
Here is another explanation in detail of how they work:
http://members.cox.net/golddebra/Photos/LockerOperation.pdf
It is important to know how they actually work so that you can adjust your driving style to eliminate or at least minimize their undesirable properties.
So when I make a right turn on pavement, my locker is ratcheting(audibly) and then I stomp on the gas and hear tire squealing and look back and there are two tire marks, that is just a figment of my imagination, and the locker was actually unlocked? Good to know.
Stomping on the gas, tires squealing and black marks on the pavement = tires slipping and therefore the locker automatically locks, just like it is supposed to. If they didn't lock when the tires slip, they wouldn't call them lockers.
I'm glad you are figuring it out. It isn't that hard. If one or more of the tires slip, it locks. If the tires aren't slipping, 99% of the time one side or the other is ratcheting.
Advanced autolockers lesson 101: Autolockers switch drive sides when you change turning directions and when you go back and forth from drive to coast. If you want to have fun with an autolocker, do a turn in a parking lot and rapidly go back and forth between drive and coast by giving it a little throttle and then letting off.
Well if they aren't web wheelers or mall crawlers they fall into the gossip girls part of it. AFAIK none of them have personal experience with a double auto-locked 80....that sounds like gossip to me. Reasonable and safe gossip, but gossip none the less.
Maybe they do, maybe they don't.....but none of them have the experience being called into question here. Hell it's an internet forum, sometimes it's fun to be the antagonist. And most of those debates are still being debated with no hard facts from anyone to prove either side wrong or right, always seems to end in all agreeing to disagree.
Well, let's start with most 70's and 80's model domestic pickups. Most 1990's or older Honda Civics/Accords considering the neglect and 'modifications' most receive. Lifted Jeeps. A lowered S10. And most any vehicle owned by the company I work for. Atleast with my 80 I knew what it was going to do when I wasn't on the gas in a turn....every time I wasn't on the gas in a turn. 55mph lane changes were just fine and dandy. And every on the gas turn wasn't unpleasant, when the weight bias was at all towards the rear it wouldn't do anything unpredictable either.
I think we're arguing about technical semantics. I think both of us have a basic understanding of how they work, but we are wording it differently. But the bottom line, no matter what is that you are relying on an additional mechanical devise to work properly for you to able to steer your vehicle safely and that is not a wise thing to do.
If the spring/pins in the locker mechanism are weak or fail, the locker will not want to disengage, which is one reason you have lockers that continue to remained locked even as the tires try to turn at different speeds. Another reason is when you have the teeth meshed under a load, the teeth don't always want to dissengage right away.
In a rear axle application, this isn't that big of a deal, but in a front turning axle application, the locker has to be able to disengage reliably 100% of the time. Or switch loads from side to side, instantly, 100% of the time. And that's just not going to happen.
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Well saidIt is not a semantic difference, it is a fundamental difference.
I said: "If by "locked" you mean that both wheels are turning the same speed then this only happens when one wheel loses traction and slips. Otherwise when a wheel is not slipping, they spend 99% of their time with one side locked and driving and the side with the faster rotating tire free wheeling and ratcheting."
You said: "The lunchbox style auto lockers, are locked up at all times that the carrier is under a load, either forward or reverse and the two tires are turning at the same speed."
It is an important difference that is worth clarifying because if you understand how they work you can change your driving style to eliminate many of their undesirable properties and drive more safely on slipery surfaces: Don't go from coast to drive in turns unless it is necessary. Drive with a light accelerator pedal on slipery surfaces, since all the power is drivine one wheel and it is more likely to slip on ice.
I see guys with JK Jeeps doing this all the time. Putting autolockers in the front with no hubs.
Do they have the same AWD system a Cruiser has? If so, they are doing it right and left.
Do they have the same AWD system a Cruiser has? If so, they are doing it right and left.
Uh, no. Normally, when you engage 4wd High, only one front and one rear wheel are being driven at the same speed. In AWD, one front and one rear are being driven but there is slip, ie; they are not locked (Kinda like the analogy of an open diff on a normal car). Lift your truck and put it on jack stands at all 4 corners. Run it in normal AWD and then engage 4wd High and see what happens.
As far as why not put a locker in the front, I'd invite you to lock your front differential on your truck, or someone else truck. You will notice that the dynamics change tremendously with the truck fighting the turn and wanting to go straight.
If you put any auto-lock locker in the front, think of what would happen if you are making a turn and suddenly, the truck decides you want to go straight, in a fairly violent manner. Think if perhaps not you, but a family member or friend is driving your truck. The results could be catastrophic.
I have a 90 4Runner with auto lockers front and rear.. I also have manual hubs on it. if I engage the hubs, there will be fighting,.. kick-back and you can just feel pressure building up in the front end until the "BANG!" when things release... although humorous if you are by a crowded bus-stop, not something I enjoy experiencing.
I invite anyone who wants to experience the difference in the Northern Virginia to come and try.
Bill
TLCA#7390
The new wranglers and I assume old wranglers all or mostly use part time 4wheel drive systems. The ones that do not have manual hubs, most likely have a vacuum or electric disconnection front axle, where one side of the front axle is automatically disconnected when in 2WD.
A front locker will have no affect on drivability in 2WD with this kind of set up, because no matter what, the two front tires will always turn indepedent of each other. But in 4WD it's entirely a different matter. But they can run 4WD only on the trails and in conditions where the front locker won't pose as much of a hazard. I still wouldn't do it, but it's a lot safer than in our full time AWD rigs.