Are State Trust Land Permits worthless?

[LandCruiserPhil]

I had an encounter with officer friendly this morning North of Pinncale Peak and East of Scottsdale Rd. on State Trust Land.

The Police Officer was setting out flares for a car stuck in the water when he saw me he started jumping around and waving is arms and I gave him a courtesy wave and headed deeper into the desert I figured I should get out there and head home. I found my way back to the road and as I was waiting to cross the road in the pouring rain and my now not so friendy PO pulled up. After listening to how he could impound my licensed bike and fine me for?? I told him I had a STL permit he said he did not care because I was in city limits. WTF? Its pouring rain so I agreed with all he had to say and apologized for wasting his time and he let me go.

So whats the law? I was not making any dust.

 

[BMAN]

So what you're saying is... An officer of the law attempted to wave you down. You acknowledged his presence yet did not stop for said officer. He later spotted you as you wewre leaving the area and he pulled you over, read you a riot act full of empty promises of impound, fines and many long nights with bubba, then let you go on your way?

Where does the question of STL permit validity come from? Did he ask to see your permit?

Empty threats of fines and whatnot are commonplace among officers who "think" they know the laws they try to enforce. It does not surprise me that he pulled you over and gave you a bunch of crap, (looked in a mirror lately?) nor does it surprise me that after he realized you weren't really some punkassed trouble maker and he had no defensible reason for citing you, he let you go on your way.

Chalk this one up to an old dog learning new tricks type of deal.

 

[-Spike-]

BMAN would never get away in that situation. How would he ever convince a cop he wasn't a punkassed trouble maker?

-Spike

 

[Relix]

LOL, I love the part where the officer was jumping around and waving his arms...& Phil waves and drives off into the desert! Awesome...

Was he pissed you were wheelin or was he pissed you ignored him?(besides waving)

 

[RHINO]

who knows, i have been stopped twice on trust land, once i was told my fishing license was my permit and the other time i was simply told not to shoot or dump anything, so, i dont know the answer.

 

[inkpot]

I had an encounter with officer friendly this morning North of Pinncale Peak and East of Scottsdale Rd. on State Trust Land.

The Police Officer was setting out flares for a car stuck in the water when he saw me he started jumping around and waving is arms and I gave him a courtesy wave and headed deeper into the desert I figured I should get out there and head home. I found my way back to the road and as I was waiting to cross the road in the pouring rain and my now not so friendy PO pulled up. After listening to how he could impound my licensed bike and fine me for?? I told him I had a STL permit he said he did not care because I was in city limits. WTF? Its pouring rain so I agreed with all he had to say and apologized for wasting his time and he let me go.

So whats the law? I was not making any dust.

Howdy! I would make a phone call to the STL department and find out if the city has any jurisdiction on that area. It is a good question. They may have an agreement with the city regarding dust, noise, nuisance issues. Most of the time, law enforcement officers will warn you and let you go, but they can nail you to the wall if you are being a wiseguy,:whoops: or if you were really tearing up the place, target shooting and leaving a mess. My only nephew is a Sherrif's Deputy, and I hear war stories from him when we get together. Technically, the club STL Permit is only valid if you are on a club run or a verifiable scouting run . The AzLCA had a STL Rep come and give us a little presentation. In addition to the two club permits, I carry my own private permit, which pretty much opens up the STL to unlimited, for my whole family( 5 drivers) and all of their vehicles (8) for a mre $25 per year. It is well worth it to me, and it also counts me 3 different places as a paid consumer of STL as an OHV operator. Now, if I could just remembe where I stashed all that paperwork!! John

 

[goodtimes]

Since when do you need a permit to drive on a public road that crosses STL land? As I understand it, you only need the permit if you stop along the way. This is the same deal with the national forests where they charge you a user fee (california, mt. lemmon, etc)....unless you are just passing through (not stopping), in which case they cannot charge you since you are on a public road.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Howdy! I would make a phone call to the STL department and find out if the city has any jurisdiction on that area. It is a good question. They may have an agreement with the city regarding dust, noise, nuisance issues. Most of the time, law enforcement officers will warn you and let you go, but they can nail you to the wall if you are being a wiseguy,:whoops: or if you were really tearing up the place, target shooting and leaving a mess. My only nephew is a Sherrif's Deputy, and I hear war stories from him when we get together. Technically, the club STL Permit is only valid if you are on a club run or a verifiable scouting run . The AzLCA had a STL Rep come and give us a little presentation. In addition to the two club permits, I carry my own private permit, which pretty much opens up the STL to unlimited, for my whole family( 5 drivers) and all of their vehicles (8) for a mre $25 per year. It is well worth it to me, and it also counts me 3 different places as a paid consumer of STL as an OHV operator. Now, if I could just remembe where I stashed all that paperwork!! John

I was asked for the first time in 10 years of permit holding last year in Tucson. I was camped and my wife was gone with the truck and when I told him I had a permit he didnt want to see it. I made him look at it and started asking him question about the permit and he told me he didnt know much about it. He said that in the past he uses permit law for asshats and punks. Then he told me not to camp on the other side of the road because thats where all the asshat and punk go.
Every year when I get the club permit I have talked with the director of the STL permit in depth on pre-running trails and even if Im on my motorcycle (pre-running of course) I feel if I have a problem I will go see him and get his blessing.

Since when do you need a permit to drive on a public road that crosses STL land? As I understand it, you only need the permit if you stop along the way. This is the same deal with the national forests where they charge you a user fee (california, mt. lemmon, etc)....unless you are just passing through (not stopping), in which case they cannot charge you since you are on a public road.

Thats the way I understand if you are moving you dont need either permit. I have used the driving thru at the lake and Sunset Crater and avoid paying at the booth.
FWIW I was stopped on STL when he blocked me but I was moving when he saw me.

LOL, I love the part where the officer was jumping around and waving his arms...& Phil waves and drives off into the desert! Awesome...

Was he pissed you were wheelin or was he pissed you ignored him?(besides waving)

I wasnt wheeling I was on my motorcycle.
He was pissed at first but also in shock that I was some old man riding around in the pouring rain. I think this was one of the only times where being old and dumb helped

So what you're saying is... An officer of the law attempted to wave you down. You acknowledged his presence yet did not stop for said officer. He later spotted you as you wewre leaving the area and he pulled you over, read you a riot act full of empty promises of impound, fines and many long nights with bubba, then let you go on your way?.

Yes

Where does the question of STL permit validity come from? Did he ask to see your permit?

When he told me I could not ride there and I told him I was on STL and had a STL permit and I could ride but he was not hearing it....believe it or not I do know when to shut my mouth

 

[RHINO]

phil my run ins and trying to get answers have pretty much led me to believe that a city officer does not really know much about trust land issues and he can cite you for several things not related to STL since your in the city. when i lived up there i used to go drive around all the time on all those dirt roads. i also did plenty of target shooting, heck most days i would go home from work through the desert and stop and shoot. unfortunately since housing has been moving in the police and sherrif have really been cracking down on keeping folks out. i think its alot more to do with noise/dust, shooting and illegal dumping than anything else.

 

[BMAN]

The only time I've ever been asked about my permit was the weekend of the last AzRocks event. We were digging my cousins 5th wheel out of the ditch he was stuck in when the sole PCSO officer responsible for 86k acres of STL in Pinal county came rolling up. He helped us dig out, then asked if we had our permits. I was waiting for the ticket when I told him it was "in my other truck". He did not write me a citation but instead warned me of the consequences and went on his way with a handshake.

Incidents within the city limits may fall under a different set of jurisdictions though. I'd be interested to know who has jurisdiction and if the "city laws" apply. My guess would be that if it is not posted "no motor vehicle access" like much of the STL around my house, you should be OK.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Incidents within the city limits may fall under a different set of jurisdictions though. I'd be interested to know who has jurisdiction and if the "city laws" apply. My guess would be that if it is not posted "no motor vehicle access" like much of the STL around my house, you should be OK.

Marana is a stickler on off-road driving....signs or not. It's a town law. They patrol the Santa Cruz River via ATV and horseback.

A lady resident seen my son in his '93 down by the river and called the cops. When they came to my house (she got the plate number) they cited Tyler. $150 + $20 citation fee. They also handed him a flyer on STL and explained the closest site to 4WD off Tangerine Road. This info surprised me.

It took him 4 hours to wash the mud from the truck.

 

[Pskhaat]

Okay, I know I have the club State Land Trust permit, but maybe I'm just really ignorant after only 3.5 years here. Every other State I've ever lived in is just that, PUBLIC LANDS, State, or BLM, or Federal, or whatever, no laws against being present on said land regardless of ingress/egress.

Exactly how/why is that different in AZ?

 

[inkpot]

Okay, I know I have the club State Land Trust permit, but maybe I'm just really ignorant after only 3.5 years here. Every other State I've ever lived in is just that, PUBLIC LANDS, State, or BLM, or Federal, or whatever, no laws against being present on said land regardless of ingress/egress.

Exactly how/why is that different in AZ?

Howdy! I believe it is in the original state charter, that a certain amount of land belongs to the state of Arizona for the express purpose of funding education. It does involve a lot of acres, but they are scattered all over the state. The STL Board can sell, or trade, it pretty much whenever, and to whomever, for however much they want, with some limitations. Currently, I believe it must go to the highest bidder at public auction, but they have found ways around that in the past. I think the permit plan helps fund the board, and it also helps keep a lot of people in the dark about access. Enforcement is at random, and it is a little like car insurance: you may or may not get a ticket if you get caught in violation. John

 

[Pskhaat]

yeah, I think that funding the school stuff is a load of $h!t, it's like...what...2% of sale? Nice excuse to get more $ for developers and rape the land Arizona.

Anyway, so I need a group permit and a personal one?

 

[sjpitts]

The federal government owns lots of land--in many different forms. National forests, BLM, national parks, wildlife refuges, military bases, indian reservations, etc. The state owns lots of land as well. Parks, state trust land, roads, schools, etc. The use of each of these different types of government land is controlled by various state and federal laws. Most of the time when we think of "public land" we are thinking of the types of land where some type of public access right is confered in statutes. For example, there are statutes that specifically say forest service, BLM and park service land are open to public access with some restrictions. Not so with indian reservations or military bases.

However, state trust land open to public access. The law specifically says that state trust land is open to public use for hunting and other recreation with proper permits.

So in that sense, state trust land is just like any other public land. The major difference is the state is selling trust land at much higher rate than other agencies are selling land, and that all the proceeds from the sale or lease state trust land goes into specific state trusts-- mostly for education.

So by law, the government is free to sell state trust land--although I personally believe it is not required to do so--usually a public auction. They can also lease it with some restrictions. But until it is sold, state trust land is "public land" because as long as it has not been sold or leased the statutes grant the public various access rights to that land.

Jared

 

[Tools R Us]

...
Anyway, so I need a group permit and a personal one?

The way I understand it, the club permit covers club related activities. Club runs are covered, if I am out by myself or with a few others we are scouting for future club runs, also covered. At this point I don't see the need for another personal permit, this theory has never been tested, but I am betting if asked to show it, the club permit and line would work.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

The way I understand it, the club permit covers club related activities. Club runs are covered, if I am out by myself or with a few others we are scouting for future club runs, also covered. At this point I don't see the need for another personal permit, this theory has never been tested, but I am betting if asked to show it, the club permit and line would work.

The CSC STL permit work for me when I was ask....camping in the pop-up without a vehicle.

 

[Living in the Past]

Feds do not sell land they trade it. The old indian school on central and Indian Road was traded to the city of Phx for some private land in FL that the city bought. That land bacame Federal Land while the land in Phx became Steel park owned by the city. I know somebody who has a cabin on control road just outside of Payson. The land was National Forest and the lease was about up. There were seven cabins in this area with about 1 and 1/4 acres each. The Forest service told them there wanted out of the land lord business. The seven cabin owners bought some private land in the middle of the forest around Young and traded for the land their cabins are on. That was the only way to do it since the feds don't sell land. It doesn't have to be one for one just something they want bad enough. In this case the forest service want the small pocket of land in the forest. It makes it easier to close a forest down if there is no private land that has to have access.

It's just to bad the state sold the old Phoenix four wheeler site out by Morristown over ten years ago. They had improved a camp ground out there with a well, rest rooms and picnic tables. They leased for a dollar a year and only conditions they had were to do the improvements, keep them up and keep it open to the public to use. One time we when old there to do some 4 wheeling there was a guard at the gate saying it was now private land and no trespassing. I understand most of the state land behind Lake Pleasant sold around the same time. Nothing has been developed yet and I'm sure it being called grazing land so taxes are next to nothing. I'm sure when development grows far enough out the land will be sold for a fortune. The big losers are us. Not only did we lose a great place to four wheel but instead of the state making alot of money some developer will make it.

John

 

[inkpot]

The law specifically says that state trust land is open to public use for hunting and other recreation with proper permits.

So
Jared[/QUOTE]
Howdy! But you said it yourself "Proper Permits". That leaves a lot up to individual interpretation. It may all become moot if the Greenies and Az Game & Fish have thier way with access issues. We will all need the new Copper Permit to go offroad. See the posts on the thread "Wake Up and Smell the Politics" from a few days ago. This issue has been brewing for several years, and most people only want to whine about it. We are gonna get Kalifornicated on the land issues, it's just a matter of time. John

 

[sjpitts]

Feds do not sell land they trade it.
John

The feds sell land all the time. They just don't do it as much as the state does. Forest service land is rarely sold outright, but they do sell it some time. Example:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/news/051906.shtml

The forest service does trade for land they want, but they are limited in what lands they are willing to trade away.

I certainly agree that there is no reason for them to be selling it, and I wish they would all stop. Some trades are ok, but that depends on the details.

Jared