Anyone runing additives in their fuel?

[StevoJonesFJ60]

I also was wondering about the SVO, being new to diesels I am trying to learn as much as possible.
Do you guys just add it to your main tank in the summertime? or do you need to make other modifications to the system.

 

[amaurer]

Amaurer Just what is the HFRR test and what does it mean in the real world? What they rated #1 just seems like they added B2 biodiesel to regular diesel (if what they used was diesel from the pump)

You're right #1 is just "regular" 2% biodiesel. I don't think anyone would be surprised that thats a winner - biodiesel is great for lubricity, and 2% is like adding a full half gallon to a 20g tank. Hell of an "additive"...

Anyway, I don't know s*** about lubricity testing. But from the pdf:

The HFRR is currently the internationally accepted, standardized method to evaluate fluids for lubricating ability. It uses a ball bearing that reciprocates or moves back and forth on a metal surface at a very high frequency for a duration of 90 minutes. The machine does this while the ball bearing and metal surface are immersed in the test fluid (in this case, treated diesel fuel). At the end of the test the ball bearing is examined under a microscope and the “wear scar” on the ball bearing is measured in microns. The larger the wear scar, the poorer the lubricating ability of the fluid. Southwest Research runs every sample twice and averages the size of the wear scar.

The U.S. standard for diesel fuel says a commercially available diesel fuel should produce a wear scar of no greater than 520 microns. The Engine Manufacturers Association had requested a standard of a wear scar no greater than 460 microns, typical of the pre-ULSD fuels. Most experts agree that a 520 micron standard is adequate, but also that the lower the wear scar the better.

 

[Kynot62]

You're right #1 is just "regular" 2% biodiesel. I don't think anyone would be surprised that thats a winner - biodiesel is great for lubricity, and 2% is like adding a full half gallon to a 20g tank. Hell of an "additive"...

Anyway, I don't know **** about lubricity testing. But from the pdf:

Makes me wonder about just adding a dose of straight veg oil and see what that would do.. not only to the performance but also the fuel hoses.

I went to that link you posted to learn about the HFRR test. Not so sure it correlates to the real world so well...

Tony

 

[amaurer]

Makes me wonder about just adding a dose of straight veg oil and see what that would do.. not only to the performance but also the fuel hoses.

I went to that link you posted to learn about the HFRR test. Not so sure it correlates to the real world so well...

Tony

Don't get carried away, the test is a good one. HFRR is not intended to simulate the real world, its only purpose is to provide a comparison between fuels. So while you can't look at a 450micron HFRR score and say "this will cause 450microns of wear in an engine", you definitely CAN say that a fuel that produces less wear on HFRR than another fuel will also produce less wear in an engine than the other fuel.

What will really bake your noodle about biodiesel is that at these low concentrations more biodiesel does not necessarily produce better lubricity. Also the type of oil the bio was made from also impacts how effective it is. Behold (note that "methyl esters" refer to biodiesel-ized oil):

From the above, if you add bio from Castor or Lesquerella any concentration over 0.5% is good enough. If you have soybean biodiesel then you'll have to go add 10x as much (5%) to reach the same effect. But if you have rapeseed then you'll never get all the way to the ~200micron range, and in fact you're actually worse off if you go over 3%.

Just one more thing to worry about.

Plot from paper (I can send the full text via pdf if anyone wants it):

John W. Goodrum, Daniel P. Geller, Influence of fatty acid methyl esters from hydroxylated vegetable oils on diesel fuel lubricity, Bioresource Technology, Volume 96, Issue 7, May 2005, Pages 851-855, ISSN 0960-8524

 

[canucksafari]

But if you have rapeseed then you'll never get all the way to the ~200micron range, and in fact you're actually worse off if you go over 3%.

That's news to me - and probably to most WVO burners. Most of the WVO in my neck of the woods is rapeseed (aka Canola). So, are you saying that those using rapeseed as a high percentage of their fuel are worse off than running dino diesel alone? We need more info on this...

 

[ChrisB]

I fill up at a cardlock Petro Canada wholesale station and they say this at the pump:

"
Renewable diesel and biodiesel

Diesel fuel can be blended with renewable content. Depending on the supply area, Petro-Canada stations offer renewable diesel to meet different provincial mandates in place in British Colombia, Alberta and Manitoba. The Federal Government has mandated that diesel fuel sold in Canada after July 31, 2011 must contain an annual pool average of 2% renewable content.

Some of the renewable diesel is biodiesel made with up to 5% fatty acid methyl esters (FAME) that may be available at Petro-Canada stations in the summer months to meet the provincial and the Federal requirements. To find out if biodiesel fuel is sold at a station, look for blue labels in the pump area indicating that diesel fuel may contain up to 5% biodiesel.
"

Does this mean I shouldn't need to put biodiesel or other additives?

 

[canucksafari]

IIRC, the 2% "renewable" oil was not so much a result of concern for conserving fossil fuels/the environment but a concern to replace the lubrication from removing the sulfur when ULSD was instituted. It can either come from new oil or recycled oil. Most of the biodiesel sold in the lower mainland of BC comes from waste sources. West Coast Reduction (who use to make a lot of margarine and lard) are the main commercial supplier in BC. They claim all their bio-diesel is from waste resources.

 

[Kynot62]

Went to the ASTM website to try and learn something about the lubricity of our fuel and learned somthing else. It looks like the industry uses something called an injection pump rig to test for wear from fuels. You have to buy the standards but there is something to be learned from the synopsis on the site ASTM D6898 - 03(2010) Standard Test Method for Evaluating Diesel Fuel Lubricity by an Injection Pump Rig No I didn't buy the standards either.

Also learned something from the Wiki page about lubricity of diesel and just how much it changed with the ULSD, went from 500 ppm to the new 15 ppm. Also a surpise that sulphur by itself is not a lubricant unless it combines with certain metals.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low-sulfur_diesel

And I found this on a tdi club website that posted the Engine Manufacturers Association guidelines for diesel fuel
"Aftermarket additives for improving diesel fuel lubricity should not be necessary and are not covered by this recommended guideline since they may react chemically with other additives causing them to lose their effectiveness, drop out of solution or even plug filters." It came from this link http://www.tdiclub.com/articles/Diesel_Fuel_Guidlines/


Tony

 

[amaurer]

That's news to me - and probably to most WVO burners. Most of the WVO in my neck of the woods is rapeseed (aka Canola). So, are you saying that those using rapeseed as a high percentage of their fuel are worse off than running dino diesel alone? We need more info on this...

The plot applies ONLY to biodiesel made from rapeseed, not to straight rapeseed added to diesel. Moreover we can't speculate ANYTHING about concentrations higher than shown on that plot - I suspect the behavior over 10% changes still more.

So really the only thing to take away from that chart is that perhaps its not so easy to say "2% biodiesel is always the best thing for lubricity"... cuz it might not be.

Also learned something from the Wiki page about lubricity of diesel and just how much it changed with the ULSD, went from 500 ppm to the new 15 ppm. Also a surpise that sulphur by itself is not a lubricant unless it combines with certain metals.... Ultra-low-sulfur diesel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those numbers refer to the concentration of sulfur, NOT the lubricity of the fuel. Don't confuse the two - diesel is quite slippery even with 0ppm sulfur. The question is whether its slippery enough.

 

[Kynot62]

Those numbers refer to the concentration of sulfur, NOT the lubricity of the fuel. Don't confuse the two - diesel is quite slippery even with 0ppm sulfur. The question is whether its slippery enough.

I realize that but it's commonly mentioned in the same breath about how diesel is loosing it's lubricity and it's sulphur. Not that the two are completely related.

Here's a question, just what was the main purpose of the sulphur in the first place? And does taking it out somehow remove components of the fuel that actually contribute to lubricity?

Tony

 

[doug720]

The cheapest way to refine ULSD diesel also removes most of the lubricity in the fuel. What happens is the refinery supply "DRY" fuel to distributes because the additives used to lubricate the fuel is not compatible with other products shipped in the common pipe lines used for other products.

Just a side note, all fuels, gas or diesel are nearly the same, no matter the refiner, until the fuel gets to the distributor. This is due to formulation regulations and ease of transhipment.

At the distributor, they add what ever additives to make a brands product from the common base stock fuel, ie, Techron for Chevron, etc.

It is the distributor who makes or breaks the deal on the additives. Generally, they get it right, but, this is also a competitive environment and cutting corners to save a buck is not unheard of!

Take this for what you paid for it, but my wife was a semi mucky-muck at a large local oil company for many years. I went to many parties with the whole refinery staff, distributors and all the others who make our fuel powered rigs go.

They all told me add a lubricant to my diesel fuel after the change to ULSD.

Doug

 

[amaurer]

Here's a question, just what was the main purpose of the sulphur in the first place? And does taking it out somehow remove components of the fuel that actually contribute to lubricity?

The cheapest way to refine diesel also removes most of the lubricity in the fuel. What happens is the refinery supply "DRY" fuel to distributes because the additives used to lubricate the fuel is not compatible with other products shipped in the common pipe lines used for other products.

Sulfur occurs naturally in diesel - its not an additive and in fact its extra work for the refineries to remove. The sulfur itself is what adds the lubricity... I assume its similar to how zinc in motor oil is good for certain types of wear protection.

All petroleum comes out of the ground with sulfur in it. I don't know why sulfur is always an ingredient in dinosaur liqueur but apparently they go hand in hand. When you hear about oil prices they usually talk about "light sweet crude" - sweet crude is crude oil containing less than 0.5% sulfur and therefore is good for making fuels because there isn't too much sulfur to extract. Otherwise its called "sour".

 

[Kynot62]

I did find some info about sulphur occuring naturally but according to that link from wiki I listed above and other places on the net sulphur is not a lubricant

From the Wiki article -

"Sulfur is not a lubricant in of itself, but it can combine with the nickel content in many metal alloys to form a low melting point eutectic alloy that can increase lubricity. The process used to reduce the sulfur also reduces the fuel's lubricating properties. Lubricity is a measure of the fuel's ability to lubricate and protect the various parts of the engine's fuel injection system from wear. The processing required to reduce sulfur to 15 ppm also removes naturally-occurring lubricity agents in diesel fuel."

So my question is why there has not been a fairly universal solution to replacing the lubricity in our diesel? An industry standard so to speak....

Doug Did they give you any insider info on what is best to use as an additive....

Tony

 

[kim]

Went to that link in Amaurer's post and I am not sure how the test translates into real world info. They used diesel that had no additives (which is not likely to happen out of the pumps) so what would happen to those additives used with commonly available diesel? The link is a good read to learn from but would like to hear from anyone using just 100% bio diesel as an additive in fuel from the pump. That test compares the additives themselves but what about how they would react in fuel available from the pump.

Seems odd that a lot of guys are getting better results than that test would lead us to believe. So in reality I still don't know what I should run in my diesel!

And a question for you veg oil guys, Do you need to change out fuel lines when you run a lot of veg oil?

Tony

I haven't changed a single fuel line and I've been fooling around with veggie for two years now in four vehicles. I run blends, mostly 25 percent veggie to diesel but a higher ratio in the summer.

 

[magnus_heydoc]

My impression was that lines needed changed to nitrile or viton for either SVO or B100 but now I'm leaning towards no need for line changes for SVO but all need changed for B100.
My feeling is that SVO is not nearly the solvent that B100 is. This is only from working on my SVO rig over 4 years. I've got no papers to back this up but it's what I believe from working with the stuff hands on.
FWIW
aaron

 

[magnus_heydoc]

Another great additive is what they call Jet A fuel. This is fuel for turbo prop airplanes. It is ultra clean diesel fuel with and additive for anti-gel and an additive for anti-microbe. This obviously prevents gelling of fuel with paraffin (summer diesel) or glycerin (SVO). The other additive eliminates microbial growth in your fuel. A very nasty pain in the ass problem in some diesel fuel tanks and systems. Trouble with Jet A is it is not a good lubricant so you may need to add a splash of lube additive if using Jet A by the tank full. That is if you know someone working on turbo props. They have to drain off fuel and test it for water etc. Then they actually have to pay an outfit 10 cents/litre to dispose of it. My guy runs his boat and gives me some as well. It's great fuel to be combined 50/50 with SVO.

 

[Towpack]

A modern low ash 2 stroke oil at 200:1 dilution.

 

[Eric Winkworth]

I've run everything from howes, standyne, lucas and 2 stroke to bio and 30% svo mixed with diesel... By far the most noticeable improvements in noise and EGT's were the 30% mix and the bio... Ran quieter, smoother and smelled better by far!

 

[ChrisB]

Just so I'm getting this straight, I can dump 24L of 100% canola oil directly into an empty tank and top it off with diesel from the pump and drive away? That's cool

 

[Kynot62]

Another great additive is what they call Jet A fuel. This is fuel for turbo prop airplanes. It is ultra clean diesel fuel....

To the best of my knowledge Jet A is also known as high grade kerosene.... US military calls it JP5.

Tony