Any reason this won't work for my tree strap?
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Based off the specs you posted that should work depending on the weight of your vehicle and the quality of manufacturing. For a tree strap I recommend 3" minimum width which is right at 75 mm. The 3" minimum width is to spread the winch forces over a larger area on the tree as to not damage the tree.
A 2.4 ton WLL is only 4,800 lbs but that is working more with a lifting scenario and not a winching scenario. (If a strap breaks in a lift a suspended person can be dropped, where as in a winching scenario you are dodging a potential snapped line, still not good but not as bad as being dropped.) Based on a 2.4 ton WLL and a 6:1 safety factor that = 28,800 break strength which should be just fine for most all vehicles except very large and heavily laden vehicles. I recommend a minimum 3:1 safety factor with static recovery gear. The safety factor helps deal with worn components and dynamic forces that can be introduced when winching if you catch traction which puts slack in the line and then slide back on a slack line bringing it taught again.
This is a polyester strap so it will not stretch like nylon will. Use it for static pulls, not dynamic pulls such as snatches. Also, FYI polyester often has less strength than that of a nylon strap but this is a 2 ply strap so that helps make up for the difference. The per inch strength seems a bit low so I'd like some more info on the material. I tried to find out more about the strap from the link but I can't read Japanese...
In short - Would it work? Unless you have a very heavy vehicle it would probably be fine.
Would I use it? Probably - I'd like to read a bit more about it but I'm a stickler for recovery gear.
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Looks a pinch on the small side, but should probably work without issue.
However, if you are to be connecting that to a winch line with a shackle, or to extend a winchline with a recovery strap (using a shackle) then that is the weak link and there would is potentially alot of stored energy in a long winch line, and it is attached to a shackle (think projectile)
So, gotta weigh out the risks.
However, if you are to be connecting that to a winch line with a shackle, or to extend a winchline with a recovery strap (using a shackle) then that is the weak link and there would is potentially alot of stored energy in a long winch line, and it is attached to a shackle (think projectile)
So, gotta weigh out the risks.
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- #5
Thanks for the info. I'm figuring a safety factor of 3:1 on my 8mm line which puts me at 1500kg. As for the shackles, blocks etc I'm going a tad higher and figuring on double the load in the case that I use the block to double back. So that puts my strap rating at 3tons. I figure I'll always have the strap doubled as well. The reason I asked is that this strap is so cheap. These usually go for around $100 here in Japan. This one is like $20 of less on a blow out sell. It is CE rated- but I'm no expert on what that means.
My truck is aprox 1900kg unloaded and 2400kg with a very full load.
Pete
My truck is aprox 1900kg unloaded and 2400kg with a very full load.
Pete
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Extending lines/straps with shackles is usually a bad idea. Imagine how much it hurts to get slapped by a rope - now put a big knot on the end - see the difference? Instead of using a shackle weave the ends through each other and put a rolled up magazine, newspaper, etc between to keep the slip knot from tightening too much to be easily undone.
Tree bark can abrade a line. To help with this and also so I don't have to worry about an extra piece of equipment (carpet) try to align your tree strap so when it goes taught it only goes taught and does not pivot around the tree. It is much harder to abrade a strap when it is stationary than when it is moving/pivoting around the tree.
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2,400 kgs = 5,280 lbs so you should have a pretty good safety factor there (5.45:1) with a 28,800 lb break strength.
<shameless plug> For a price comparison the tree straps I sell are 3" x 8' nylon with a 30,000 lb break strength, reinforced and twisted eyes, abrasion resistant edging, abrasion indicator threads in the webbing, they retail for $39, and are manufactured and assembled in the US. $100 for a tree strap seems a bit steep.
</shameless plug>But, if the strap you linked is on sale I say go for it.
peteinjp said:
That looks to be a good strap and a good price. Winching is the same as lifting, only in the horizontal plane. "CE Rated" is a (failure) testing lab, a competitor to UL - which certifies that the product has been tested to the specifications listed. Basically, CE tested and certified the load configurations listed in those charts with the different choke/sling arrangements. A really good rating to have.
I'm not a fan of choke holds for winching, especially if using a snatchblock. The angle of that choke-hold to winch source has to be right for it to have 100% of WLL. Even in the specs the OP put forth, CE testing shows a diminished load rating using a choke hold by over 30%. I was always of the opinion/understanding that safely addressing snapping forces are better addressed with cable dampeners than with 'less' hardware.
This might be ok for self-recovery, but even then, as a big tire overcomes a rock or breaks free, the resulting slack can shift the sling. IME, this is also not really practical for recovery using a snatchblock - a lot of forces and angles can change. IMO, carpet is great for additional tree bark protection, additional cable dampening, and carrying muddy spare tires/dogs.
BillaVista Winch tech is a great place to nerd on recovery gear...
Pirate4x4.Com - Extreme Four Wheel Drive
Cheers and at that price, buy 2
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
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- #9
I bought 3- one for a christmas present to my co-worker because she just bought an old mitsu- jeep with a factory PTO winch.
$42 with free shipping!
Pete
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I never said not to use a safety dampener. Any bend in a line or strap will reduce its strength but I would still rather have a slight bend in a tow strap than to have a heavy metal shackle on the end. A metal shackle whipping around after a strap breaks, especially a nylon strap, will kill you. I strongly recommend that one never uses a metal shackle to join two straps. If someone does that during one of my trips I will halt the recovery and correct the mistake while educating as to why using a shackle to join two straps can be deadly.
I don't have access to all my training photos but below is a picture from ExpeditionsWest.com of the method I'm describing to join two straps. If you have used this method before then you know that adding the rolled up magazine or similar enables you to quickly undo the two straps and the bend from the join (with the magazine) even when tightened down does not impart any more significant of a kink than hooking up a 3/4" shackle.
http://www.expeditionswest.com/Training/recovery_rope_extension/L1030254.JPG
I'm not sure why you quoted me and added your reply. Your reply does not seem to address my statement.
If your tree strap moves from slack in your winch line you will have to reset the strap and the carpet and the carpet is very likely to fall out from between the tree and strap. I'm still not a fan of using carpet between a tree strap and the tree. It is another thing that you have to worry about and reset when your rigging shifts.
Straps are not meant to last a lifetime. Straps will abrade and have to be replaced no matter how careful you are. I take care of and don't abuse my gear but you also need to be careful about how many additional variables you add to a recovery situation (carpet strips) that you will have to deal with during set up, recovery, and clean up.
I think you read the reference-post wrong. Pretty sure he is addressing a tree line using a shackle to join the 2 loops. You are speaking to a shackle used to join 2 straps inline. Agree inline it's a bad idea, the real safety concern there is that the strap that is kinked into the pin opening of the shackle is WLL compromised.
Again, not clear to the post or your response, the picture helps - you are speaking to an in-line strap2strap connection, not a tree-choke connection. A choke-hold on a tree is not a good idea. I'm not a fan of tethering inline strap2strap at all myself, magazine or shackle. I'd rather use a spare cable than 2 straps because I just don't like (/trust) long strap connections.
If carpet isn't your thing, then a horse blanket or a piece of flexible woven rug works too. I buy and go through a lot of straps for towing and recovery, and have always taken care to watch for things one can do to address longevity. Tree bark can be brutal on a strap, btdt. Blanket, woven rug, or carpet keeps the strap from getting impregnated with bark, sap, and sharp punctures/tears.
Not sure we disagree, just misreading words written in the context of a tree strap....
Cheers
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
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A shackle join at a tree strap is better than an inline shackle between two straps. In that situation, at least running synthetic winch line, the recoil from the synthetic winch line would be minimal which wouldn't/shouldn't hopefully toss the hard shackle far and be much less dangerous than a shackle on the end of a tow rope being turned into a projectile by a broken nylon/snatch strap or even a recovery rope.
Agreed that a choke hold on a tree is not a good idea since a definite hard, albeit temporary, kink is put in the tree strap. It is similar to attaching a winch line (cable or synthetic) around a tree and choking back to itself. Irregardless of the damage to the tree it is still not a good connection because of how it compromises the strength of the winch line.
Also agreed in that I don't like connecting tow straps inline. If in a winching scenario I will pull out my 50' 3/8" Amsteel Blue winch line extension. In a tow scenario I prefer straps or even a recovery rope because they allow more stretch which is safer and better than using Amsteel Blue to tow with that has very minimal stretch and can suffer from dynamic forces that are imparted upon the line from the line going from slack to taught.
It's not that I don't like using carpet between a tree strap and a tree, I don't like using any additional material between the tree strap and tree for the same reasons that the extra material, whether it be carpet, a rug, etc, is one more thing to deal with that I don't see enough return on my investment from whether that return be monetary (saving straps), safety, or abrasion. The straps I use and sell are heavier duty than the typical yellow tow strap you buy at a hardware store and I have seen better abrasion resistance from them.
I'm very surprised to read this opinion this frankly. I have some background training in heavy sling equipment, which is the same as a winch recovery in terms of forces, specifically failure forces. The best thing you can do for safety is to protect the strap from the forces of failure. In sling rigs with rough surfaces, protection is used to keep the strap from touching the surface. Straps can fail from being exposed to these environments just once. It should be noted too, the safety guidelines addressing chain slings, have changed to address the more commonly used strap-slings. In those guidelines: Deleting the word "sharp" in the 'should avoid' terminology, to "any rough surface". Enter the Oak, Elm, Maple, and Ash tree bark anchors commonly found in the mid-west = sharp and rough.
If you opin carpet, rugs, or horse blankets are too much work, minimally advocate a cordura sleeve, they are cheap and expendable. I might also suggest that any tree strap should have a maximum diameter tree for it to be used on. As you increase the inside (toward tree) angle of the joined eyes, the WLL of the strap decreases. Read the angle of the sling load strap attachment, has a higher potential safety risk than the distance to the load.
IMO, cheap hardware store straps are great for 'safety' straps to your primary rigging equipment (*no primary load*). On my long travels to/from trailer recovery/tows, I go through a lot of high quality straps a year. I don't find protecting them to be a bad practice at all, for me it's routine.
My .02 arbitraged thru the peso
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
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This should not be surprising at all. A tree strap if placed properly on a tree does not need additional protection from something such as a piece of carpet or similar material between the tree and strap. If proper care is taken of tree straps (which I do) then they last for many years of heavy use. If a tree strap is placed where it needs to be on a tree and the line is brought taught so the tree strap does not slide around the tree there will be very minimal to almost no abrasion. I run a lot of recoveries and I see much more abrasion from other objects such as rocks and other objects on the trail, including tires, than I do trees to tree straps.
The tree straps I personally use and sell are 3" in width with a manufacturer's stamped breaking strength of 30,000 lbs. That gives you typically a 5:1 safety factor on a pull and hardly ever below a 3:1 safety factor. Many in the off road industry suggest a 2:1 safety factor for off road vehicle recoveries. I suggest 3:1 or greater. That, coupled with how I use my straps, don't necessitate additional gear such as carpet strips to be used. In addition, these straps have abrasion resistant edging, abrasion indicator threads in the straps, and the next batch will have an additional abrasion coating over the entire straps.
We agree that straps need to be used and cared for. We differ in that I don't see the need to put a piece of carpet or other protective element between a tree strap and a tree. Come to one of my classes and I'll be more than happy to explain my recovery practices from A to Z.
The tree straps I personally use and sell are 3" in width with a manufacturer's stamped breaking strength of 30,000 lbs. That gives you typically a 5:1 safety factor on a pull and hardly ever below a 3:1 safety factor. Many in the off road industry suggest a 2:1 safety factor for off road vehicle recoveries. I suggest 3:1 or greater. That, coupled with how I use my straps, don't necessitate additional gear such as carpet strips to be used. In addition, these straps have abrasion resistant edging, abrasion indicator threads in the straps, and the next batch will have an additional abrasion coating over the entire straps.
We agree that straps need to be used and cared for. We differ in that I don't see the need to put a piece of carpet or other protective element between a tree strap and a tree. Come to one of my classes and I'll be more than happy to explain my recovery practices from A to Z.
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Great! I'm glad to see my concern is something you will be addressing in your next generation tree-strap design. For 'retrofit' of your previous generation straps then, a Cordura protection sleeve could be a good upgrade? With sharp bark trees, aren't cuts, punctures and contamination the primary concern to failure?
In this context, I'm only a failure-concerned kinda guy, all safety related. I only look for agreement in that aspect of it. I don't see any disagreement yet in this thread, including you sharing my concern regarding the need for increased tree-strap strap>bark protection. I look forward to your next generation offering in this regard.
Cheers
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
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Properly sized tree straps do not routinely fail. Winch line will fail much more often than a tree strap and then due to shock/dynamic loads sometimes coupled with an abraded line - with the shock load being the main problem. If a tree strap were to fail it would most often probably be a combination of shock loads on top of abrasion (vehicle sliding back on a slack winch line). Add to that tree straps typically being stronger than winch line which would make the winch line the fuse and not the tree strap. A 3" nylon tree strap will usually have around 30,000 lb break strength. A 5/16" synthetic winch line will be around 13,700 lbs. Even if you are running a block and the load on your tree strap is doubled, it will still have more of a safety factor than the synthetic winch line will (30,000 vs 27,400 lbs).
I understand you are concerned about 'sharp bark trees' but the concern realistically shouldn't go past keeping your tree strap from slipping by making sure it is aligned properly. If you want to add a protective covering then that's fine. It's just like the Superline XD winch lines having a full length abrasion guard. The full length abrasion guard is awesome on the XDs and works great but it is an added cost of 2x + a typical Dyneema SK75 (Amsteel Blue) line. I use regular 'ole Amsteel Blue that I splice myself and it works great. Yes, it abrades faster than Superline XD but costs much less. I love the XDs and sell a good many of them, I recommend them too, but that extra abrasion resistance comes with a price. If that is what you want then the XDs come with my full recommendation, but it doesn't make the Amsteel Blue lines not fit for the job.
I am not overly concerned about my tree straps abrading from tree bark and do not think they have to have increased abrasion resistance. That concern, if it was present, would be way down the list of recovery concerns. The additional abrasion coating is being included because it cost little extra to me (I'm absorbing the cost) and it offers an additional benefit to the consumer without any additional cost to them. By far my biggest concern in off road recoveries is vastly undersized gear being used, and gear being used improperly. I.e.: snatch straps being connected with shackles, or shackles from your local hardware store (very very undersized) being used for recovery, or a winch being used to tow, chain being used to snatch a vehicle, etc. I've seen all of these occur and they worry me far more than a tree strap without an extra protective covering ever will.
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IIRC my training correctly, a 3in strap with a 1/2inch cut in it has less than 50% of it's original breaking strength. Agreed: Shock load 'can be' abrasion, shock load can be a cut = my point and concern. Straps don't routinely fail, not speaking to 'routinely', only speaking to n=1.
FYI, I buy a lot of 4in Cordura sleeve protection for less than 4$ a foot. A quick google search, that price can get you any custom length. You speak to abrasion failure repeatedly. I don't speak to it as a primary tree strap failure or concern.
Again I see no disagreement. Undersized gear is a primary safety hazard, btst in my 30 years of tow/recovery. That said, I also don't see the primary safety concern with tree straps being abrasion. In fact I agree that it's pretty low on the safety concern list. I do agree that shock loads are a safety concern with a tree strap, which directly increases the risk of cuts, punctures and contamination.
I buy straps, a lot of them, I don't sell any. I'm not sure I understand your claims of 'extra' protection on the 'next' generation of straps, without agreeing that inexpensive (cheap or no cost) tree-strap strap protection has merit. You don't have to defend the upgrade, only agree that the upgrade has benefit. And possibly agree that those with your previous generation straps don't need blankets, carpet or rugs. Folks can 'upgrade' their tree strap protection for $4.00/foot, by adding cordura sleeves to them.
It's tough as a vendor to argue both sides, I understand that. To be clear, I have very little concern with tree strap *abrasion* if the strap is set correctly. That doesn't address cuts, punctures and contamination from the shock loads we both speak of.
Cheers
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
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Bud - you jump around quite a bit with your message which makes you hard to follow.
I never said a shock load 'can be' abrasion.
I speak of abrasion failure because I keep addressing your continued point about strap abrasion and the need for a strip of carpet or something similar which I disagree with.
I never said additional protection has no merit. I said carpet strips don't offer enough benefits to have to deal with their downsides.
As to my decision to add an extra coating to my straps, well, it is quite simple. An added benefit at no added cost to the consumer with no detrimental side effects. The additional abrasion resistance on my straps is not needed, but it is a valued added benefit. Very simple. You don't need it, but you can get it for free without any down side. I've been over additional down sides of using a strip of carpet earlier in this thread and will not repeat them again.
I'm not defending my upgrade. Stating facts is not me on the defense of any of my products.
Haven't I been saying that quite frequently? My previous generation straps, current, nor future generation of straps NEED any additional abrasion resistance.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not arguing both sides of any point. Please don't tell me you think I'm being deceitful or not honest about one of my products. That would NOT go over well with me.
That is what I have been saying yet you kept insisting on a carpet strip between the tree and strap or some sort of additional protection which in most cases is not needed.
Scott - I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you over the internet about your concerns that I've addressed multiple times. I don't have the slightest bit of concern about any of the products I carry or how I use those products. They are all well proven.
With all due respect I'm done with this conversation with you.
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Now, I would appreciate it if we could get back to the original topic. I apologize the OP for being off topic.
Peteinjp - have you received your straps yet? I'd love to hear your thoughts on them once you have them in hand and especially after you get to use them a bit. Thanks!
I never said a shock load 'can be' abrasion.
I speak of abrasion failure because I keep addressing your continued point about strap abrasion and the need for a strip of carpet or something similar which I disagree with.
I never said additional protection has no merit. I said carpet strips don't offer enough benefits to have to deal with their downsides.
As to my decision to add an extra coating to my straps, well, it is quite simple. An added benefit at no added cost to the consumer with no detrimental side effects. The additional abrasion resistance on my straps is not needed, but it is a valued added benefit. Very simple. You don't need it, but you can get it for free without any down side. I've been over additional down sides of using a strip of carpet earlier in this thread and will not repeat them again.
I'm not defending my upgrade. Stating facts is not me on the defense of any of my products.
Haven't I been saying that quite frequently? My previous generation straps, current, nor future generation of straps NEED any additional abrasion resistance.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not arguing both sides of any point. Please don't tell me you think I'm being deceitful or not honest about one of my products. That would NOT go over well with me.
That is what I have been saying yet you kept insisting on a carpet strip between the tree and strap or some sort of additional protection which in most cases is not needed.
Scott - I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you over the internet about your concerns that I've addressed multiple times. I don't have the slightest bit of concern about any of the products I carry or how I use those products. They are all well proven.
With all due respect I'm done with this conversation with you.
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Now, I would appreciate it if we could get back to the original topic. I apologize the OP for being off topic.
Peteinjp - have you received your straps yet? I'd love to hear your thoughts on them once you have them in hand and especially after you get to use them a bit. Thanks!
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Southeast Overland
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peteinjp said:
Sorry 'bout that. :-(
$12 is a screaming deal!
As to the length I've found that in the southeast a 8' long strap is a nice length but longer is better than too short.
