Alternative Battery Options (1 Viewer)

[stedhorse]

Hey Folks, was wondering if anyone has experience with these dual purpose Dakota lithium batteries. I deal with cold weather which had me interested in the LTO stuff, but this thing looks like a good drop in option for high capacity. They also have smaller sizes. This one is 70 lbs, group 31.

But that price

Dakota Lithium Plus 280 Ah 12V LiFePO4 Dual Purpose Battery

6X the power of a group 31 marine battery. Dual purpose LiFePO4 battery with both 280 Amp Hours of deep cycle energy plus 1,000 CCA of engine starting power

dakotalithium.com

 

[daneo]

when you say “dual purpose” are you looking for a battery that runs the starter as well as runs accessories?

I had concerns about cold with lithium as well, so I got a self heating battery from Renogy. I believe they say not to use it for starting though. The Renogy replaced a Dakota Lithium. Never had a problem with the DL. Just wanted a larger size and self heating to help in the cold.

 

[stedhorse]

These dual purpose from DL are heated and can handle starting. So it’s like house battery + starter + longevity + weight savings. Theoretically.

 

[daneo]

Having house and starter be all one battery makes me a little nervous to wake up to a dead battery. But I see the appeal and respect the pursuit of weight savings.

 

[tbisaacs]

$2399 could build you a big bad second battery bank. Or get a solar generator.

There is no chance a stock alternator would charge this thing for the long term.

 

[stedhorse]

Hadn’t considered the alternator. I think I read it self caps at 135 amps.

 

[stedhorse]

Having house and starter be all one battery makes me a little nervous to wake up to a dead battery. But I see the appeal and respect the pursuit of weight savings.

Especially with the complexity of this thing. That is one reason I was drawn to an LTO cell. Could be dead simple and reliable, if you don’t cook your alternator.

 

[tbisaacs]

Hadn’t considered the alternator. I think I read it self caps at 135 amps.

It’s not just amps, is sustained 14+ volts to charge a lithium battery. Our alternators are voltage and temp sensing and do not put out constant voltage.

 

[TeCKis300]

Several things make this integration more challenging than it would appear.

Definitely what @tbisaacs touches on. Alternators aren't setup to handle the high draws these things are capable of swilling. Nor AGMs for that matter. The charging profiles are also not suitable. This can wear the alternator and battery.

There's the issue of underhood cold as mentioned. Heaters really eat power and even at higher capacities, drawing something like almost 2 amps. At that rate, a large 100Ah battery won't handle more than 2 days of heating before being depleted. Given the recent bomb cyclone, that would be a bad situation if one were counting on their car to start.

Then there's the heat issue with lithiums. In traffic or crawling, the underhood compartment easily gets above 160°F. That'll prematurely destroy these expensive batts.

A high quality FLA battery that's been engineered to be integrated with the car as factory is the best starting battery.

 

[100kiwi]

I have one of these under the hood as a house battery. DCS , it handles the under hood temps fine. Tried and proven in Aussie so good enough for me

 

[Sandroad]

Are there really people willing to pay $2400 for a battery?

 

[bloc]

Are there really people willing to pay $2400 for a battery?

It's as good as 12 interstates!

 

[OSS]

For cold weather starts, an AGM can’t be beat for the price. Day & night difference starting in really cold weather compared to a flooded battery. LiFePO batteries are still way too insanely expensive to use in a car

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

For cold weather starts, an AGM can’t be beat for the price. Day & night difference starting in really cold weather compared to a flooded battery. LiFePO batteries are still way too insanely expensive to use in a car

With the recent quality of AGMs... I'll stay with flooded. I have 35 AGMs on a pallet headed to the re-cycler because they won't accept a charge with less than 24months of use. We've sent them to the local resellers that have tried to "conditon" with no luck.

WORTHLESS

Odyssey, Optima and Northstar... ALL s***.

 

[CanadianRockyCruiser]

I'll also recommend an flooded battery. Just size up to a 31 if you want extra capacity. I bought a Northstar AGM in a previous LX, and it did not last. The charging voltage of the alternator is not sufficient for an AGM, and even if you trick the fuse-box with a diode, you'll be stressing other components.

A Lithium ion battery isn't even worth considering for almost any Land Cruiser application...and Lithium ion prices aren't likely to come down anytime soon.

 

[TeCKis300]

For cold weather starts, an AGM can’t be beat for the price. Day & night difference starting in really cold weather compared to a flooded battery. LiFePO batteries are still way too insanely expensive to use in a car

To be fair, have you tried a high performance group 31 flooded lead acid battery? I'd bet that'd do the trick as a new battery and with higher CCA. Most with new batteries are also comparing to an older worn stock battery.

With the recent quality of AGMs... I'll stay with flooded. I have 35 AGMs on a pallet headed to the re-cycler because they won't accept a charge with less than 24months of use. We've sent them to the local resellers that have tried to "conditon" with no luck.

WORTHLESS

Odyssey, Optima and Northstar... ALL s***.

This was my experience as well on previous cars. The highest end military rated metal jacket Odyssey failed premature of expectations.

Been trying to share that experience with the forum for awhile now that unless a battery chemistry is integrated from the factory side, it's setup to fail. It's like using a FLA battery charger that doesn't have an AGM mode and expecting it to work with AGMs.

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

To be fair, have you tried a high performance group 31 flooded lead acid battery? I'd bet that'd do the trick as a new battery and with higher CCA. Most with new batteries are also comparing to an older worn stock battery.



This was my experience as well on previous cars. The highest end military rated metal jacket Odyssey failed premature of expectations.

Been trying to share that experience with the forum for awhile now that unless a battery chemistry is integrated from the factory side, it's setup to fail. It's like using a FLA battery charger that doesn't have an AGM mode and expecting it to work with AGMs.

I started telling customers that call because of a parasitic draw causing dead batteries to just change out their AGM.... A vast majority ARE CURED!!!!

 

[OSS]

This AGM fiasco in vehicles is news to me. I had one 10 years ago and it worked great. On sailboats they are the defacto upgrade and highly coveted.
But AGM specs (all of them) warn against charging them at high temperature and state that they shouldn’t be charged when hot.
That always was a head scratcher to me because inside the engine compartment with engine running is way hotter than what the AGM charging spec allows.
That’s probably what’s killing them — high heat and excessive charging.

 

[TeCKis300]

This AGM fiasco in vehicles is news to me. I had one 10 years ago and it worked great. On sailboats they are the defacto upgrade and highly coveted.
But AGM specs (all of them) warn against charging them at high temperature and state that they shouldn’t be charged when hot.
That always was a head scratcher to me because inside the engine compartment with engine running is way hotter than what the AGM charging spec allows.
That’s probably what’s killing them — high heat and excessive charging.

Yes, that's the biggest issue.

There are others.
- built in charge voltage profile including temperature compensation is incorrect for AGMs leaving them short of full charge causing sulfation, and to your point overcharging when hot
- usage in low speed idling and crawling, also to your point, greatly spikes the underhood temps
- wear and potential damage to alternators, as AGMs have lower resistance charging faster, but really loads up the alternator

 

[bj70bc]

wow.... learning is great
did not know this, thanks guys