Alignment questions and binding noise help

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Mxndrnks

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TC UCA Alignment questions and binding noise help

Since upgrading my suspension over the past few months I have had nothing but trouble getting everything dialed in. On the front my truck had the TC UCA's, Radflo 2.5" remote res shocks, Timbren bump stops, 1 1/4" spacers, 295/75R/16's. I have rebooted both lower ball joints, replaced both outer tie rods, replaced steering rack bushing, and new sway bar links and bushings, and repacked the front wheel bearings.

I just went in for my 3rd alignment in since November. My wheel is still rubbing at the back of the wheel well when turning in the spot you normally have to trim to run 35's. (again I am running 295's/75/16) I have run the same tire for a few years now and have never had this issue before. I am guessing the TC UCA's pull the tire back further towards the back of the wheel well. If I adjust for more positive caster, will that bring tire further forward in the wheel well? or is that not really how caster adjustment works? They are currently not getting caster within specs which is supposed to be one of the benefits of the TC UCA's. The right is currently set at 0.7 degrees and the left is at 1.4 degrees. If that was changed to say 3 degrees of caster which is within spec, would that bring the wheel further forward in the wheel well? I have been reading and reading everything I can on alignment, but still do not understand this part. If in the end I have to resort to a BL and trimming this part to fix the rub I will. But, if it is something that can be corrected through alignment, I would prefer that first as long as it doesn't have other negative affects. I am trying to make sure I understand everything before I go back up to complain about the alignment.

Next problem I need help trouble shooting. When I put the car into reverse and back up turning to the passenger side, I get what I would describe as a bid and popping sound. With SO much being new and/or rebuilt there, what should I be looking at as the cause? CV? Lower ball joint? Steering tie rods binding? Again it is all new since all the work and alignments.

Thanks! Starting to wish I just had my old Slee OME medium lift back on....
 
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Hmmm...sumding wong (sorry Les :D). I'm running 3.7 degrees of caster on one side and 3.3 on the other (custom upper control arms) and my big 35's don't hit the rear side of the front fender at anytime [I pinched the body seam down; 1" body lift...but running the front end relatively low anyway (about 20" NET hub center to lower lip of the fender)].

The factory spec for caster is 2.5 degrees +/- .75 degrees. If the caster #'s you relay are accurate the steering should feel some "twitchy-ness" or hyper-sensitive steering especially noticeable at highway speeds.

All things being equal the more positive the caster the more rearward the wheel will sit in relationship to the fender/steering axis.

I assume, since they advertise it, Total Chaos has some caster correction built in to their UCAs; but I don't recall seeing how much.

Popping noise: When you're backing up are you on flat ground or is the suspension being cycled as you back up?
 
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Thanks Dan!

So, based on what you are saying and the how far the wheel is sitting back in the wheel well, there is no way to get the caster back within spec and not have rubbing. Or through adjusting all the other wheel alignment specs can the wheel be adjusted back forward? Right now everything else is within spec. Camber is at 0 degrees both sides, Toe is at 0.04 degrees both sides, Total toe is 0.07 degrees and steer ahead is 0 degrees. It doesnt feel quite right when driving. I know you ended up lowering your front some more recently. Would lowering the front change how far back the wheel sits? I have it a little higher than most right now. But still more than the recommended droop. Some where around 70mm. My background is in boats so wheel geometry is new to me.

Popping noise - I am getting it when backing out of parking spaces (grocery store - pretty flat) and backing into driveway with some some minor suspension cycle at the curb cut. I never notice it going forward. It first reared it's head after my first alignment in Nov. and was only when backing up into the drive way with some suspension cycle. At this time I had not done any of the steering rack work or changed the front ride height. I had changed out the sway bar bushings and links, new UCA's, and Shocks. It did it for a while and went away.... I think. I had also learned to not turn as tight because of other rubbing issues I was working out with the remote res location.
 
Just to chime in, I too, have had nothing but alignment issues since going to Carl's UCAs, King 2.5s, Timbren bump stops, 1.25" spacers and 295/70/18 Trail Grapplers.

The first place I took it to (Butler Tires) charged me $250.00 and I drove home with the top of the steering wheel pointing between 1 and 1:30 o'clock. The truck also pulled hard to the right at anything over 30 MPH. Whenever I would take a slow turn, it would start off relatively difficult and then the steering wheel would get a mind of it's own and turn by itself at a high rate of speed. I would liken it to a chopper motorcycle. When I would pull out of a parking lot, my front tires would chirp. Next I took it to Firestone and got one of their $200 life time alignment deals. After 2 visits they corrected much of the turning behavior but the top of the steering wheel still points to about 1 o'clock and the truck still mildly wants to go to the right at speeds over 45 MPH. I don't have any rubbing to speak of but I would really like the truck pointed straight and the steering wheel at the 12 o'clock position.

Firestone uses a Hunter 4000 alignment system if that helps any.
 
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You will increase positive caster on our IFS as you lower the front lift height; and the reverse when you lift our IFS (hence the desire to have some caster correction built in to the upper and/or lower arms for ~2" lifted front ends).

What is the static height of your front end measured from the center of the hub straight up to the lower lip of the fender? Be sure when measuring your truck is on level ground and you didn't just turn in to the same position...you want the t-bars equal.

With the minimal caster #'s you presented you just shouldn't have any interference back side of the front tires. I'm not an alignment expert but its not making sense based upon what I do know.
 
Thanks PFran. There is some comfort in that I am not alone with this.......
Thanks for the tip about Firestone too. They are the ones that have been doing my alignment. The lifetime alignment has definitely paid for itself....

Like I said, I dont mind trimming the back of the wheel well like other have done for 35's or going to a BL. I just cant figure out why everything is so far back in the wheel well.

But more than anything.... I want to get rid of this binding and popping sound.....
 
Mxndrnks said:
Thanks PFran. There is some comfort in that I am not alone with this.......
Thanks for the tip about Firestone too. They are the ones that have been doing my alignment. The lifetime alignment has definitely paid for itself....

Like I said, I dont mind trimming the back of the wheel well like other have done for 35's or going to a BL. I just cant figure out why everything is so far back in the wheel well.

But more than anything.... I want to get rid of this binding and popping sound.....
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Do you have new rear upper and lower control arms? If not, the bushings could be really bad causing some binding, then popping when unloading. I have heard from a couple guys that they got that "sensation" when the bushings were in really bad shape. Can you tell if it is from the front or back? I know that is pretty hard to do from the drivers seat sometimes.
 
Re: Popping noises: The other wear item to look at that others have said results in pops/knocks from the front end is the rubber bushing apart of the front side of the front diff mount...just a guess.

I had a similar popping sound and it was coming from worn out anti-sway bar bushings...the larger middle section bushings. They were so worn I was getting some metal-on-metal contact. Also check the frame mounts for same...that was another source of one of my popping noises...

To dovetail on what bluecruiser posted: The rear upper control arms really need to be removed to properly inspect; but its relatively easy to do. I also was getting, in addition to the rear steering effect of same, knocking/popping noises from them when they were worn out...they seem to go south around 150k miles or so...
 
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spressomon said:
You will increase positive caster on our IFS as you lower the front lift height; and the reverse when you lift our IFS (hence the desire to have some caster correction built in to the upper and/or lower arms for ~2" lifted front ends).

What is the static height of your front end measured from the center of the hub straight up to the lower lip of the fender? Be sure when measuring your truck is on level ground and you didn't just turn in to the same position...you want the t-bars equal.

With the minimal caster #'s you presented you just shouldn't have any interference back side of the front tires. I'm not an alignment expert but its not making sense based upon what I do know.
Click to expand...

Hey Dan,

I am about to run out and drop off my daughter to school. I will try and find a good level spot to double check my numbers. But, my front end is higher than most (somewhere around 22" with about 70mm of droop). When I had it set around 110mm of droop after switching to the UCA's and Radflo's I still had "some" minor rub on the plastic fender liner and the bind/pop noise after I got it aligned and the caster then was set around 1.5 &1.7 degrees. Pulling the fender liner and res-securing it with new fasteners helped with the rub. But it was still really close. That is part of the reason I lifted the front more...Trying to figure out what is going on and eliminate some of the rubbing issues I have been having between the front wheel well, remote res, and UCA.

Maybe I am just being paranoid and frustrated.. But what are the chances I was sent a wrong set of UCA's? Would the UCA alone be responsible for putting the wheel so far back or is there some adjustments in the LCA I should be looking at?
 
bluecruiser said:
Do you have new rear upper and lower control arms? If not, the bushings could be really bad causing some binding, then popping when unloading. I have heard from a couple guys that they got that "sensation" when the bushings were in really bad shape. Can you tell if it is from the front or back? I know that is pretty hard to do from the drivers seat sometimes.
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spressomon said:
Re: Popping noises: The other wear item to look at that others have said results in pops/knocks from the front end is the rubber bushing apart of the front side of the front diff mount...just a guess.

I had a similar popping sound and it was coming from worn out anti-sway bar bushings...the larger middle section bushings. They were so worn I was getting some metal-on-metal contact. Also check the frame mounts for same...that was another source of one of my popping noises...

To dovetail on what bluecruiser posted: The rear upper control arms really need to be removed to properly inspect; but its relatively easy to do. I also was getting, in addition to the rear steering effect of same, knocking/popping noises from them when they were worn out...they seem to go south around 150k miles or so...
Click to expand...

Everything in the rear is new. New OEM UCA's and Slee heavy duty LCA's. All Sway Bar bushings and end links front and rear are new. I changed out the big front Diff support bracket.

To me it sounds like the passenger side front. But, I dont know for sure.
 
im having the same alignment issue, I switched to carls UCAs and now the steering is all off, after getting it aligned. does someone have specs that they feel work well with 285/75/16 and UCAs?
 
Mxndrnks said:
Hey Dan,

I am about to run out and drop off my daughter to school. I will try and find a good level spot to double check my numbers. But, my front end is higher than most (somewhere around 22" with about 70mm of droop). When I had it set around 110mm of droop after switching to the UCA's and Radflo's I still had "some" minor rub on the plastic fender liner and the bind/pop noise after I got it aligned and the caster then was set around 1.5 &1.7 degrees. Pulling the fender liner and res-securing it with new fasteners helped with the rub. But it was still really close. That is part of the reason I lifted the front more...Trying to figure out what is going on and eliminate some of the rubbing issues I have been having between the front wheel well, remote res, and UCA.

Maybe I am just being paranoid and frustrated.. But what are the chances I was sent a wrong set of UCA's? Would the UCA alone be responsible for putting the wheel so far back or is there some adjustments in the LCA I should be looking at?
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Entertain me: If you are at 22" then lower the front end to 20.5" max. The wheel spacers are responsible for your top out and fender liner interference; assuming you are running the Timbren bump stops up front. So IMHO you're going down the wrong path to solve that issue.

Our/most IFS is crazy sensitive to off-angles that result from lifting; start experimenting with it and you will see what Im talking about. Add to that the acute angle you get with the steering rack ends (tie-rods) from lifting and you begin to see/feel compounding issues with the front end geometry.

I've been down this path. What has worked out for me (35's): 1" body lift, front Timbrens (soft), 10mm front wheel spacers and a reasonable (relative to the 100-Series front end) amount of front lift height (20.5"). This gives you a very well balanced front end. I've found everything else is a bigger compromise. Some can live with it other's can't and that's OK...

For off-roading, slower speed trail work you can get away with more lift height. And when I did HITR I raised the front and the rear (then Airlift bags) for better clearance for some of the obstacles on that trail; although rear articulation suffered somewhat.
 
kennyao30 said:
im having the same alignment issue, I switched to carls UCAs and now the steering is all off, after getting it aligned. does someone have specs that they feel work well with 285/75/16 and UCAs?
Click to expand...


Put the front lift height at 20.5" from hub center to lower lip of front fender as described above (jack up the front end, support it properly and adjust the t-bars). Test drive it and re-measure. Keep doing that until you get consistent measurements after each test drive and left to right.

Then test drive it. Then take it to a knowledgable front end alignment specialist. These are difficult to come by based upon my experience.

The problem isn't with the UCA's (assuming you don't have worn out front end parts that would be contributing their own ill effects)...its with us trying to lift the front end beyond what the OEM geometry can and will tolerate as it relates to IFS.
 
Thanks again Dan. I will give that a shot. Slow and crawling are not my goals here. I am not in Northen CA any longer. I want to get the best performance I can for higher speed desert travel with occasional slower obstacles. That is why I went with everything that I have installed right now. I may eventually go 35's. But, I have been put off by then knowing I will need/want to re-gear.

I may also try changing out the rear springs too. I started with 860's. But with only the fridge, recovery gear, and BOIR rear with spare and gas carriers in Moab last last year I was rubbing at the top of the wheel well in full compression. They were just TOO soft with any gear. Oh, and I had coil spacers installed as well. I have 863's right now. I was planning to do drawers and still may one day. But the ride is too high in the rear. And I dont know how soon the drawers are going to happen. I may give Slee a call and chat with them about springs. The SOF2RH springs they have look to handle the same weight with only a 2" lift vs. the 3" of the 863's. Maybe I cant get it perfect by lowering all around.....
 
Do all firestones still do lifetime alignment?
 
^^^ Before I had the drawers installed the 865 was a nice spring for me. When you get the drawers installed and filled up the 863 should be about perfect.

Also you want 3/4"-1" rake from back to front.
 
Yes...the t-bar adjuster bolt head is 30mm diameter.
 
spressomon said:
Put the front lift height at 20.5" from hub center to lower lip of front fender as described above (jack up the front end, support it properly and adjust the t-bars). Test drive it and re-measure. Keep doing that until you get consistent measurements after each test drive and left to right.

Then test drive it. Then take it to a knowledgable front end alignment specialist. These are difficult to come by based upon my experience.

The problem isn't with the UCA's (assuming you don't have worn out front end parts that would be contributing their own ill effects)...its with us trying to lift the front end beyond what the OEM geometry can and will tolerate as it relates to IFS.
Click to expand...

spressomon said:
^^^ Before I had the drawers installed the 865 was a nice spring for me. When you get the drawers installed and filled up the 863 should be about perfect.

Also you want 3/4"-1" rake from back to front.
Click to expand...

I havnt had a chance to adjust yet. But I did get a chance to recheck my heights. I think it was a pretty flat area but will check again tomorrow in a different spot. The measurements were as follows:

Drivers Side
Front - 21"
Rear - 23"

Passenger side
Front - 21.5"
Rear - 23"

Also, when looking a the UCA's, it looks like they are twisted/turned in the mount towards the rear of the truck. I will try and get a pic and post it up tomorrow. This is why I keep getting the gut feeling it is an alignment issue. I just dont see how droping the front 1/2-1" is going to give me that much space to get caster into spec. But, Maybe...

I dont think I will have time to adjust it this week and get another alignment done. I am headed out to Anza Borrego this weekend to meet up with some other MUD guys (Bluecruiser, SDcruiser, and others).

I may also end up calling one of Total Chaos' authorized shops here in San Diego tomorrow to take a look at the current alignment and UCA's. Maybe Firestone just isnt getting it or I have something else going on. I know of at least one other MUD member that emailed me his alignment specs and we have almost the same set-up and he has no issues and is getting everything within spec.
 
21" is in the ball park. Taking it down another .5-1" is not going to solve your issue. Calling Total Chaos and getting a recommended/qualified shop to take a look at it is the thing to do...good luck!
 
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