AHC delete. In search of the Holy Grail (1 Viewer)

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Hi Mudders!

So I bought this 08/2000 HDJ100 not too long ago, and it turns out I didn't do a great deal.
Truck is on its last leg, but would be nice if I could pull a couple more years (2) out of it and do some trips around Europe (10-20k miles max total). So I have to nail this right the first time, as there is no way I'm spending more on this truck or adding anything else in the future (because of the limited life left in it anyway)

This is a different story, and I don't want to play the victim, so here we go:

The AHC in the truck is crap. The sensors have been hacked (sensors took apart & rusty & original contact springs swaped for springs from ball pens) - which makes the sensors to read all around the place as one can imagine their resistance values are far from stock. Linkages have also been swapped for something else than Toyota, and are non adjustable, so really the only way around this would be to replace all three sensors.
The rear AHC struts have rusted away, and the bushings on top are non existent (I'm so sad I didn't have the knowledge what to look at back when I've bought it, but this is the situation now) - So this brings me for new rear "shocks". The globes are around 9-10 marks on the reservoir N-H, but looking at the overall shape of the truck and the feel of the suspension, I'd say they a goner as well. Actuators (where the globes screw onto and have the valves in them) are rusted, and pretty sure can't even undo the bleeder plugs without snapping them. Not sure if the valves are working properly in them or not, but I suspect not. The AHC lines are all rusted as well, so I guess there is nothing to do but delete the system, because replacing all these components would just rob the bank really, only to have a same ageing pump and accumulator, which might just break the next month out of nowhere.

And this brings me to my next headache, which suspension to choose. It doesn't help, that the truck is bone stock, and I don't plan on towing or carrying ANY weight at all instead of my GF and myself. 95% on bad roads (onroad), and 5% offroad.

I would like to have the truck ABOVE AHC normal height (not necessary to hit the H height, although that would be the best). But for some strange reason it seems like nobody makes a lift without also beefing up the springs/shocks, which I don't really understand why.

Living in shistern-europe I have limited options:

1, I can get an OME kit that includes:
- 303002 torsion bars (this is a diesel, that's why it's not the 303001)
- 2865 rear springs
- 60000/60002 Nitro Sport shocks

This seems to be the best money for value, HOWEVER I've only, and I mean ONLY read horror stories about this setup, especially the shocks. I'd love to have a plush ride (which I know will never be as close to the ride with the AHC), and this is about the furthest away from that I believe.

2, I can get a Pedders suspension setup
- No idea about spring ratings and shock specs.
- I believe this is the worst of all quality wise, it seems to be OZ, but in reality it's Chinese

While this setup would be the cheapest, I'm afraid, well more like sure, it wouldn't be any better than the OME ride quality wise. Nobody uses these, so it is hard (non) to find any reviews.

3, I could get an Ironman kit
- No idea about ratings and shock specs or the amount of lift it gives
- FoamCell Pro shocks, which people seem to like (that said, all comments with this shock had at least a steel front bumper)
- I've heard quality is not the best, rust and sagging issues

This setup is by far the most expensive, almost double of the OME setup.

4, I could do a hybrid
- Toyota non-ahc TB's
- OME 2865 rear springs
- Toyota shocks

This looks like a good compromise, but the problem is that noone sells the Toyota shocks (I'm afraid they're discontinued). PN is 48511-69457 and 48531-69587. This setup is not cheap, it's half way between the OME kit and the Ironman kit, and would probably be the most prefered if I could get the shocks.
I wonder if there is a superseeding partnumber for the shocks that fit a 08/2000 Euro HDJ100 - maybe the 2006's shocks? I don't know.

Any thoughts are much appreciated, especially real life experience with the kits mentioned above.
 
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*subbed* I'd like to know how this turns out. As a lover of the AHC, as it makes my Benz friends jealous when they ride with me, I know that it's possible at some point this decision will be in my future too. I'd like the AHC ride with the simplicity of a standard suspension setup.
 

MongooseGA

Learns things the hard way
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I would like to have the truck ABOVE AHC normal height (not necessary to hit the H height, although that would be the best). But for some strange reason it seems like nobody makes a lift without also beefing up the springs/shocks, which I don't really understand why.

It's because the AHC system supplements the weight being held by the TBs and coil springs. When you remove the AHC, those components are no longer sufficient to support the vehicle. Conversely, if you were beefing up the AHC suspension with a lift, you'd need to uprate your springs to compensate for demands above the AHC's original capability.

I deleted mine and installed a full Tough Dog foam cell kit, including their HD TBs and medium load gold coil springs. Before the gold coils, I had in a pair of OME 865 springs. The truck is very comfy and I don't find the suspension to be jarring at all. Additionally, I have the adjustable rears so I can change them depending on my load or terrain type.

Here's the thing- I thought my set up was nice until I drove @JT4runner 's truck a few weeks ago on factory AHC. Even with high miles, his AHC-equipped truck was a cloud compared to mine with complete new suspension. My E-rated, 40 PSI, 34" tires definitely don't help, but even on regular lighter duty rubber, still wouldn't be the same. When you give up AHC, you do give up a truly awesome ride quality (assuming it was functional to begin with). The trade off for higher suspension capability and lower maintenance is going to be the pillow your butt thinks its riding on.

Personally, if I didn't have my complete foam cell suspension from a previously totalled truck (long story), I would have kept the functioning AHC in my 05 LX and beefed it up with higher performance spheres (I had a set on an older LX), stronger springs, and shock spacers. Since I had a basically brand new system though, I just bit the bullet and did it.

In your case, I'd consider the Tough Dog system 41mm/45mm combo. Don't get the 53MM Ralphs I have in front unless you're hanging a bumper and winch- it'll be way overshocked for a front end. I ran it this way for a while before my ARB went on and it was tolerable, but not super comfortable. I'd also look at the Ironman kit as they seem to be well reviewed. OME Nitro shocks seem to be the entry level that everyone regrets not skipping in their initial build. I didn't want to shop twice, so I sprung for the 'right set up' at the start. I've also read good things about the Dobinson kit but (someone correct me if I'm wrong) they don't include new springs.
 
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In your case, I'd consider the Tough Dog system 41mm/45mm combo. Don't get the 53MM Ralphs I have in front unless you're hanging a bumper and winch- it'll be way overshocked for a front end. I ran it this way for a while before my ARB went on and it was tolerable, but not super comfortable. I'd also look at the Ironman kit as they seem to be well reviewed. OME Nitro shocks seem to be the entry level that everyone regrets not skipping in their initial build. I didn't want to shop twice, so I sprung for the 'right set up' at the start. I've also read good things about the Dobinson kit but (someone correct me if I'm wrong) they don't include new springs.
I'll second that Tough Dog suggestion. I just upgraded from OEM front shocks to the 41mm TD foam cells. I wanted the 53mm TD Ralph's, but I'm only running a hidden synthetic winch and @TRAIL TAILOR talked me out of them. The 41's are perfect for a "stock-mod" setup.
 
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It's because the AHC system supplements the weight being held by the TBs and coil springs. When you remove the AHC, those components are no longer sufficient to support the vehicle. Conversely, if you were beefing up the AHC suspension with a lift, you'd need to uprate your springs to compensate for demands above the AHC's original capability.

I deleted mine and installed a full Tough Dog foam cell kit, including their HD TBs and medium load gold coil springs. Before the gold coils, I had in a pair of OME 865 springs. The truck is very comfy and I don't find the suspension to be jarring at all. Additionally, I have the adjustable rears so I can change them depending on my load or terrain type.

Here's the thing- I thought my set up was nice until I drove @JT4runner 's truck a few weeks ago on factory AHC. Even with high miles, his AHC-equipped truck was a cloud compared to mine with complete new suspension. My E-rated, 40 PSI, 34" tires definitely don't help, but even on regular lighter duty rubber, still wouldn't be the same. When you give up AHC, you do give up a truly awesome ride quality (assuming it was functional to begin with). The trade off for higher suspension capability and lower maintenance is going to be the pillow your butt thinks its riding on.

Personally, if I didn't have my complete foam cell suspension from a previously totalled truck (long story), I would have kept the functioning AHC in my 05 LX and beefed it up with higher performance spheres (I had a set on an older LX), stronger springs, and shock spacers. Since I had a basically brand new system though, I just bit the bullet and did it.

In your case, I'd consider the Tough Dog system 41mm/45mm combo. Don't get the 53MM Ralphs I have in front unless you're hanging a bumper and winch- it'll be way overshocked for a front end. I ran it this way for a while before my ARB went on and it was tolerable, but not super comfortable. I'd also look at the Ironman kit as they seem to be well reviewed. OME Nitro shocks seem to be the entry level that everyone regrets not skipping in their initial build. I didn't want to shop twice, so I sprung for the 'right set up' at the start. I've also read good things about the Dobinson kit but (someone correct me if I'm wrong) they don't include new springs.

I mean that nobody makes a lift kit that rides smooth (plush) with the car beeing stock (no steel bumpers and such - these seem to be a prerequisite for every lift kit to "work properly"). I think it would be possible to make tall and softer springs + valve the shocks accordingly.

Thank you for your great thoughts/input, I'll have a look if it is possible to source TD in this part of the world!
 
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I mean that nobody makes a lift kit that rides smooth (plush) with the car beeing stock (no steel bumpers and such - these seem to be a prerequisite for every lift kit to "work properly"). I think it would be possible to make tall and softer springs + valve the shocks accordingly.

Thank you for your great thoughts/input, I'll have a look if it is possible to source TD in this part of the world!

The Toyota OEM work great for that plush "stock" feel. Throw some 30mm coil spacers on the rear for some lift and crank the TBs a little to lift the front. Voila! Same plush stock feel, but 1" higher. You can run 33" and 34" tires on that all day long without issue. The ToughDog 41mm FoamCell are a solid choice for a more "sport" feel to a stock cruiser. Ultimately, the shocks are NOT the biggest factor.....the springs (Torsion Bars and Coils) are. You have to pick those correctly and then select an appropriate shock for your needs.

As a quick reference for torsion bars, these go in order of diameter thickness smallest (softer) to biggest (more rigid): Toyota AHC, Toyota OEM, OME, SwayAway, IronMan, ToughDog/Dobinsons. For coils, there are a LOT more choices depending on what you're looking for. I use the ToughDog dual rate extra heavy coils. But, they offer a wide variety depending on your needs. Again, springs ARE the key. Shocks simply dampen compression and rebound.

If ToughDog would come out with their adjustable fronts, they would be the ticket. I run the 53mm up front and the 45mm adjustable rears. Having 9 adjustment points is FANTASTIC. If only they made it for the front, I think you'd have your ideal setup with proper springs.
 
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Maybe the thinnest aftermarket TB and throw on a pair of spacers in the rear with a new set of OEM springs?

EDIT:
ignore this message and read @geanes one post above mine, I was typing my short and sweet reply while he was typing his thorough reply.
 
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The Toyota OEM work great for that plush "stock" feel. Throw some 30mm coil spacers on the rear for some lift and crank the TBs a little to lift the front. Voila! Same plush stock feel, but 1" higher. You can run 33" and 34" tires on that all day long without issue. The ToughDog 41mm FoamCell are a solid choice for a more "sport" feel to a stock cruiser. Ultimately, the shocks are NOT the biggest factor.....the springs (Torsion Bars and Coils) are. You have to pick those correctly and then select an appropriate shock for your needs.

As a quick reference for torsion bars, these go in order of diameter thickness smallest (softer) to biggest (more rigid): Toyota AHC, Toyota OEM, OME, SwayAway, IronMan, ToughDog/Dobinsons. For coils, there are a LOT more choices depending on what you're looking for. I use the ToughDog dual rate extra heavy coils. But, they offer a wide variety depending on your needs. Again, springs ARE the key. Shocks simply dampen compression and rebound.

If ToughDog would come out with their adjustable fronts, they would be the ticket. I run the 53mm up front and the 45mm adjustable rears. Having 9 adjustment points is FANTASTIC. If only they made it for the front, I think you'd have your ideal setup with proper springs.

Thank you! Yeah, comming from the AHC I have to swap both front (TB's) and rear springs. The Toyota bars look like they should do the job, but I'm really out of ideas for the rears. I don't even know what the stock Toyota rear spring would be in a HDJ100, but I'm 90% sure it's a different spring from the ones used in North America. So far the OME 865's seem to be a good compromise and after hours of reading it seems like if I'd buy and crank the Toyota factory non-ahc bars, I'd get a 1.5" lift with this setup. The "issue" is, that I can't really find the factory Toyota shocks available anywhere, to complement this setup - it looks like they have been discontinued.

If that's the case, then it would be easier for me to get a "kit" instead of buying all of the invidual parts from all over the world, one by one. The issue with this is, that there are 3 kits available. The OME, the Ironman and the Pedders to choose from.

Now I have found a shop on the continent who can import ToughDog TB's and shocks - the 41mm foam cells, but no rear springs. So if I'd take this route, the best I could put together would be Toyota non-AHC TB's (from Dubai), OME 865 rear springs (from the UK) and the TD shocks (from france). This setup would cost the same (~1700 USD) as the Ironman FoamCell Pro kit - so pretty expensive and 5-6 weeks processing time, because of the TD shocks:/
 
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I could get KONI Heavy Track (not the RAID) shocks as well (8240-1184SPX and 8240-1183SPX) for $180 USD each... Don't know if anyone ever tried these?
 
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I've figured that what I could do is to get the OME setup (TB's, 2865 springs, Nitro sport shocks) for $1150 USD, install it, and if it really is that unbearable I could lighten it up with Toyota shocks for an aditional $400 USD. So if I'm lucky it would be done out of $1150, if not, then $1500.

If I went Toyota TB's, Shocks, and OME 2865 from start, then that would cost $1600 USD.
 

nukegoat

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The Toyota OEM work great for that plush "stock" feel. Throw some 30mm coil spacers on the rear for some lift and crank the TBs a little to lift the front. Voila! Same plush stock feel, but 1" higher. You can run 33" and 34" tires on that all day long without issue. The ToughDog 41mm FoamCell are a solid choice for a more "sport" feel to a stock cruiser. Ultimately, the shocks are NOT the biggest factor.....the springs (Torsion Bars and Coils) are. You have to pick those correctly and then select an appropriate shock for your needs.

As a quick reference for torsion bars, these go in order of diameter thickness smallest (softer) to biggest (more rigid): Toyota AHC, Toyota OEM, OME, SwayAway, IronMan, ToughDog/Dobinsons. For coils, there are a LOT more choices depending on what you're looking for. I use the ToughDog dual rate extra heavy coils. But, they offer a wide variety depending on your needs. Again, springs ARE the key. Shocks simply dampen compression and rebound.

If ToughDog would come out with their adjustable fronts, they would be the ticket. I run the 53mm up front and the 45mm adjustable rears. Having 9 adjustment points is FANTASTIC. If only they made it for the front, I think you'd have your ideal setup with proper springs.
Yes, this is why trophy trucks, Baja racers, ultra4, and other off-road classes spend barely anything on shocks and put all the money into springs
 
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Does anyone happen to know what is the difference between these?

48531-69795 - ABSORBER ASSY, SHOCK, REAR, RH/LH
48531-69835 - ABSORBER ASSY, SHOCK, REAR, RH/LH
48531-69587 - ABSORBER ASSY, SHOCK, REAR, RH/LH

The first to is available and listed for the 100 series, the last one is not available and is listed for my exact model.
 
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Lots of good info above and out there.

IMHO, I have the LX 470 (Landcruiser in a prom dress), 03 model with the AHC that worked fine. And I wanted to remove and lift it with a mild application (I know, it worked and I could have kept it but I wanted change--also, all parts worked, its a Texas rig so no rust, if someone wants it all or any, make me an offer and pay shipping).

Back to the experince I want to share, this is my first 100 series, as my son and I did lots of 4Runners in the past, so I tossed around many options for my particular use of this 100 series, which is about 85% pavement and the rest off road for hunting trips, trail riding or beach. So once I accepted my true needs vs the wants (yes it would be fun to build the crawler or climber) then I searched and read the forums, which contain a wealth of info and I envisioned my wallet getting thinner.

Conclusively, my application was for a for a seemingly good ride, functional for my offroad, along with the effeciency of change and most importantly economy. I chose the OME medium kit but with Sway Away Torsion bars, all from Rocky Road Outfitter (super customer service and knowledge base on the LC as well as others).

Brief run down:

A. The Sway Away TB were about $100 less than OME at the time, so I tred them and no issues at all, they work great for my application. Install was 6 mos ago. As noted above the LX 470 TB's are too week to turn up, they are made for the AHC combination that gives a wonder ride, so to the earlier comment they will need to be changed, (once their removed they make a good pry bar for your tool bin).
B. The OME Medium shocks ride nicely for me, it seems the old AHC shock bushings were shot so my replacement fixed a few minor rattles, then I followed up and replaced the sway bar bushings and everything is tight, and rattle free.
C. The rear springs for the Medium kit were actually stiffer than I liked but only stiffer in height than ride (I prefer a little rake with the front wheels higher but once its loaded, it levels out). Application OME 860.
D. For my lift, my objective was to achieve factory alignment and not have to do UCA's (my rig's previous, female owner over serviced this unit at the Lexus dealership so the ball joints were replaced at 100K, this among many other things allowed me to buy this without hesitation). Now there may some may debate, and I respect it, but I did not want to replace the UCA's with an adjustable ball joint at this time; however, this is a possibility for the future if raise it higher. Again, when I mentioned economy, its all about application and the size of the tire you want to squeeze in the well and the thickness of the wallet. So I pre measured my AHC at full height and readjusted my T bars to that setting.
E. Next, I bought a sack of cheeseburgers for the brake shop and we discussed the mechanics of how to alight a LC or LX to achieve factory specs for the camber, caster and toe in
F. Six months later, thousands of miles and tire wear is fine on my K02's, which is somewhat stiff for the road but that is because of the 10 ply tires (I know they were take offs and great deal). I prefer Pizza Cutter tires over width, my goal is contact pressure and minimal wheel rub plus I don't want to degrade the spectacular 12 MPG with a tail wind. Tires are BF Goodrich KO2 275/65R18, rims are factory but painted granite gray to match the trim.

Finally, I am old school and do all of my own work, except the alignment and wanted to share my experiences and outcome, because you have a great rig with somewhat unlimited options. Couple of photos below (rack are Yak bars with garage made Z bracket so I can pop my kayaks on top for fishing on the coast).

IMG_0342.jpg
IMG_0343.jpg
 
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@MJTEX: Thank you very much for your detailed response & for sharing your experience! Yours is for sure a very nice looking rig. Also you're the first who I came across to write good things about the OME shocks. I can imagine the Sway Away TB's also make a difference compared to the conventional OME medium kit. Actually I'm a bit confused why that kit is the (main?) one Slee is offering - being it either the 1.5" or the 2.5" lift, with so many bad thoughts about these kits around this place. I'm sure they know it more than I do when it comes to suspensions, so this is nothing against them honestly, I'm just trying to resolve this mystery about lift kits going on in my own head. It very well could be that 95% percent of the users of these kits are happy and never write about them in forums, and I'm only really seeing the 5% with negative thoughts. It's hard to make a clear conclusion based on forums really.



It's a bit rougher on this side of the pond to get the parts, as the same parts cost 1.5x the US prices right away. Not to mention the special USA / AUS made parts (Thinking about performance springs, torsion bars & shocks), which are not only 1.5-2x as expensive till they get here, but are very hard to source, takes weeks if not months to get them here. This, and the fact that most USA vendors / shops are not happy to deal with europe (understandable) makes it even harder. For example I have no idea how could I get FOX shocks if that was my dream. Probably $$$ would solve it somehow, but thankfully that's not my dream right now..

Basicly this is why I'm somewhat limited to the options I've wrote in the first post, as those are the parts / kits that are commonly (meaning: at all, without huge dramas) available in europe.

Another thing that I haven't yet considered really is that 99.99% of the members on this forum are running UZJ's, while 99.99% of the 100 series owners in europe are running HDJ's (Petrol vs. Diesel). So any advice and info I can gather from this forum really is for the petrol 100's, and while the diesel ones are pretty much the same cars, the TBars - for example - are different (longer on the diesels). They're longer by 2 inches which I'm sure isn't much of a difference, but would result in a slightly different spring rate for the same kit (but the TB's) at the end of the day. Probably the same goes for the shocks, that even if are the exact same models, they might behave slightly differently on the diesel trucks.

Anyway, after 3 days of non-stop research and reading I came to the conclusion that the most likely route I'm going to take is the Ironman setup. This is the same one as the one that's for the Petrol models, except for the TB's as I've outlined it above, which are longer for the diesel in this kit as well. For that I have to travel to the neighbouring contry to get it at a reasonable price (well, EU kind of reasonable:) $1750 - which is still ofcourse steeper than the USA price), but it's well worth the trip ($350 cheaper there and it's only 200 miles away). That is if they have it in stock / can source it in a reasonable time period, which I'll only know on monday.

The second best option right now seems to be the factory non-ahc setup with OME rear springs, but the price (and shipping cost) of the new stock tbars make it almost as expensive as the Ironman setup ($1600 for the stock vs. $1750 for the IM) - which I'd like to think about as a superior than stock setup. It would be a different story if I could get a pair of used tbars, but if I say that there are no more than 50 of 100 series running in my country (out of which 99% are AHC), I'm not too far away from the truth. So basicly good second hand 100 series parts are non-existent here, and I don't have the will and energy to try and find used diesel, non-ahc TB's somewhere in europe over the internet.
The other thing is, that no matter how hard I try to research it, I just can't find the exact correct Toyota shocks for a pre-facelift HDJ. I have a feeling that the late UZJ shocks are the same and would work, but I just can't afford to go trial by error right now and with this exact car (that is rusty, has engine and other issues - so not a great investment to throw random parts at it, until getting it right in the long run, mainly because there is no long run:D). Also as I've mentioned earlier, everything is more expensive here, so to get the UZJ shocks (from Dubai, as that's my cheapest source) I'd have to fork out $400 USD for the 4 shocks. That's about double the price you guys can get the factory shocks for I believe.
I don't want to sound whining or anything like that, just want to tell the reality & context that I'm trying to consider when choosing which way to go post-AHC:)
 
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a running AHC system is the holy grail for 90% of people, with 33" tires and the push of a button you have just added a 3" lift and then it resets for the comfortable drive home all while riding in a cloud ;)

the next best option are very pricy, but a standard LC system would be best cost wise.
 
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Yes, this is why trophy trucks, Baja racers, ultra4, and other off-road classes spend barely anything on shocks and put all the money into springs

Different vehicles entirely and at a wildly different price range. Their springs are not stock and are seriously engineered. We don’t have access to those level shocks with customizable valving on 100s. Kings are about as close as you get. In the end, what happens more often than not is that people buy the wrong springs for their weight and then blame the shocks which aren’t actually at fault. That was my point.
 

nukegoat

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Different vehicles entirely and at a wildly different price range. Their springs are not stock and are seriously engineered. We don’t have access to those level shocks with customizable valving on 100s. Kings are about as close as you get. In the end, what happens more often than not is that people buy the wrong springs for their weight and then blame the shocks which aren’t actually at fault. That was my point.
How are their springs seriously engineered?
 
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I wanted to add a correction to my write up, it was in fact OME with Sway Away but I purchased them from Rocky Road Outfitters, not Slee. Both are great to work with, when I looked at receipts I realized my error. Rocky Road had a quick turn around for the parts to my door. Good luck with the build, cant wait to see the write up and photos!
 

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