3B upgraded to turbo, still working out the bugs, suggestions?

[Fantom]

Ok,
Below is the thread link to the original build so I won't bore you with all the details, short and sweet:
turbo is rebuilt again, installed, working fine.
I've adjusted the fuel and under heavy load max out at just under 1000*F - now I know that I can turn it up more but:
-it's winter and around -2C to 5C here
-truck has very little stuff in it, compared to it usually being very loaded for trips
-my fuel economy is not great.
So here are the details, BJ60, 33" tires, 4.56 gears (undergeared for 33s, I know), 5 speed.
Fuel economy right now is 14.5L/100Km (about 500km to 73L - which is where I usually stop and fuel up) it has not really changed much from before I installed the turbo.
Boost is maxing out at 13PSI
I do notice I loose power when heading uphills, not nearly as bad as before the turbo but still fairly drastic. I've driven other turbo'd 3B and they were holding up better. In higher gears I end up loosing the momentum, in 2nd and 3rd it seems to be fine.
Suggestions?

No brakes dragging, no leaks in the intake or exhaust system, I have 2 tires on the roof which don't help (I know that).

thanks

 

[Radd Cruisers]

Compression test results?

Valve adjustment?

Timing set up?

Nozzles in good order?

Exhaust size?

A 3B running 13PSi should pull quite strong. 4.56 is pretty low, in my opinion, for a 3B running 33s. - you're probably revving quite a bit too high to be in the economy zone.


~John

 

[jake2far]

Read your build thread, nice manifold.
It looks like you placed the EGT probe preturbo, if your temp preturbo is 1000F you need to add more fuel to get better preformance.
Check your injectors for spray pattern and pop off pressure, have them set up 50 psi over max per the TSM.
Check the injection timing per the TSM if your timing is retarded it will cause low HP and poor fuel economy.
Check compression, probably do this first as it will cause all your symptoms if low, it can be low if the valves are out of adjustment.
Fuel filter, air cleaner, sedimentor, have you checked or changed these?
Good luck,

Jim

 

[VTCDN]

How much did you adjust the fuel screw out / or let the over fuel arm travel more?

In Ontario the green rot box got 600 KMS per tank average.(records from new came with the truck)
Across Canada 759 was the best , But just pushing air @100 kms/hr avg.
Island driving 80 kms / hr 680kms (only one tank so far. )
Vancouver driving is all go/STOP /Crawl So 540 per tank could be normal , Vancouver and LA is the same driving , it eats fuel..

Are you sure that the EDIC is pulling the fuel arm ? I drove one that had the system disconnected , I'm assuming that was the reason it seemed more gutless than I'm use to.

If you don't give it fuel , you won't get power. Increasing the Volumetric efficiency with a turbo is one step , next is to add fuel , I heard 2 turns out . I DON'T know YET .

Seen the thread here on EGT's 3B's NA ?? Mine is 1200 - 1400 @ 2000rpm 4th pulling doing 80kms or real close (lots of critters you need to watch for) No Turbo yet.

Im stock rot 84 BJ60

VT

 

[kim]

I don't think there is anything wrong with that mileage considering that winter diesel is what we are using.

You had your turbo for the MacKenzie trip, right? Has the performance changed since?

 

[Fantom]

thanks for the feed back guys,
in order:
compression is 420,410,420,420 warm
valves adjusted less then 6000kms ago, needed to clean them up as there was wear on the rockers
timing is factory stock, but I have been considering checking and advancing it a little (this is the only thing I have not done yet).
Nozzles are good, rebuilt about 2 years ago (50,000km tops, likely less)
exhaust is 2 3/4" with a flow through muffler, shortened to stop before the rear wheels
Thanks John

Jim,
I will look at adding more fuel but I think I will check the timing first, and thanks for the comments.
Filters done less than 6000km.

VT,
The fuel screw should be about 1 turn out, I was playing with it back and forth for a while and before the turbo decided to brake (bad rebuild job but covered under warranty) it ran a little different. I don't think it was rebuilt properly the first time so I am not relying on anything that happened before.
EDIC is working fine and fully functional.

Kim,
that thought did occur to me, but would not explain the truck loosing power up the hills. On flat ground I get excellent acceleration, 5th gear doing 80km/hr, if I want to pass someone it takes very little effort to get to 100km/hr and pass. Different story when I hit hills, she looses power rather quickly.

I'll tackle the IP timing and turn up the fuel a little more and go from there.
Thanks guys!

 

[Nexxussian]

Forgive me if this system doesn't allow for this possibility, but as you mentioned the somewhat short gearing, could it be that you are running against the defuel point?

On some of the Cummins swaps I've seen, have the same symptoms.

The solution was to increase the defuel point of the injection pump.

I don't know if that is externally adjustable on your injection pump, but it might be the solution, if only temporarily.

 

[hedgehog23]

with all of your regearing/tires how are you calculating mileage? gps?

 

[Fantom]

I'm about 7% off, which reminds me I didn't account for that, I'll change that in the posts right now.
That 7% was calculated using GPS as well as mile markers on a route over a long distance.
so the fuel consumption ends up being even worse, 14.5/100km

As for the defuel point, I don't think I have heard that term before, can you give me any more clarity on that?

 

[VTCDN]

Fantom , Do the Easy first.
Fuel

The stock setting for the Screw that all turbo guys are adjusting and talking about is set at the time of fuel pump assembly and then run on a fuel bench to set the pump up to max fuel and many other trims.

After that it's all down hill with wear ,could take years if looked after properly , but wear causin less amount of fuel being delivered is more noticeable than "timing" slightly off. (timing retards with wear also ).

In non turbo mode , engine hot , I made a NOTE of where the stock (tie-wired / witness marked) setting was and then fooled with adding more fuel . My last max fuel setting was way over the top without a turbo, I was looking like a bug spraying winter peg mosquito killer, around 3 turns .I now went back the the stock setting that the NOTE'S that i made on the testing of seeing how much fuel i can add / for the EGR temps / Power , speed on the test highway hill i was using (island hwy is 110 max , I had 4ways on 80 /90 is about max )

Long winded explaining of how i set my max fuel up (an hour or more ) but in that time frame i had a few constants .

After all of that my setting now still non turbocharged is 1 &1/8 turn out or more rich STOCK.
I get a very very small smoke at full or 7/8 pulling throttle (full peddle is no difference than just off the floor) .

Since I don't have the Turbocharged setup ready to bolt on (still in building mode ,Oil trap next) There is one area that needs to be looked into deeper than i have done testing.The fuel system is pneumatically controlled ,we just screwed with the venturi effect of the throttle plate porting system by adding a turbo or charged air.

My testing of the ports shows that full ( I adjusted from wire-tied , witnessed set screw ) throttle stop is not fully 90* open , opening it more so i did get it 90* I had less pressure differential between the ports and less power , backing off the foot gave my differential pressure gauge more of a reading . I put back to stock wire-tied setting and that was the max opening for the max differential pressure for the pneumatically controlled diaphram , That is the force that is pushing against the governor , Governor is what lets the fuel rail be able to reach max fuel stop.


And since I'm still A Natural Sucker , I haven't had the opportunity to do the charged pressure testing of the throttle plate venturi system with my setup.

Just some of my added thoughts of last nights posting.


VT

Edit add:

Our inline fuel pumps , as fancy as the are with the pneumatically controlled stuff DO NOT do "defuel".

That term is meaning a pollution system used on much newer fuel pump controlling system.

VT

 

[Nexxussian]

Sorry, I should have defined that in my earlier post.

The "Defuel" point I was referring to earlier is where the injection pump Governor reaches the maximum engine speed it is set for, and reduces the amount of fuel being sent to the injectors to prevent the engine from increasing in speed.

I don't know what the Toyota manuals would call that, it's common practice to increase that point on the Cummins, but it is usually set fairly low stock (somewhere between 2500 and 2800) on the Cummins.

For those that have tried running the Cummins in a vehicle with a less than optimum combination of tire size and gearing, and the stock maximum speed setting, some have encountered a phenomenon where the engine is running nearly as fast as the Governor will allow on level ground, only to "loose power" when they encounter a hill.

What it has been explained to be is the defuel event isn't a single point on the engine speed, but a range that ends at the rated speed.

Thereby allowing more speed on level ground, but an inability to maintain that speed on a hill, regardless of how hard you press the accelerator, this being perceived as a loss of power because at that speed on level ground you have "pedal left" to apply.


It is properly remedied by correcting whichever mismatch might exist in tire size or gearing, but for the short term an increase in the maximum speed setting for the Governor can alleviate the symptom, if it is in fact what you are encountering.

I have no way to know for sure if that is what you are encountering, but with the mention of gearing, and the similarity of your complaint, I thought I would suggest the possibility, as I have seen several people spend good money after bad (while metaphorically tearing their hair out) "fixing" everything but the actual problem.

I hope that helps.

 

[Fantom]

I think I'm getting what you guys are saying.
Now it also help to mention that the engine has 530,000kms on it and has not been rebuilt. I have noticed a slight difference in a recent test, with the engine fairly cold the acceleration and power was very noticeable, after running for about 40 minutes on the highway I noticed it decrease a little. Now the difference noticed was minimal but would suggest that heat and the wear of an old engine might be factors as well.
The gearing/tire size ratio I have I chose mostly for off-road reasons not highway, I know the side effect is that the vehicle does not reach the same speeds as it used to but it also is under less stress from the load applied. Higher RPM range with higher torque and horse power output.
I've rebuilt a fair amount of engine (mainly gassers) and have done all the work on the truck myself but I've stayed away from the fuel pump as much as I could. I guess I'll have to start looking into it a little.
Although, even if I increase the amount of fuel and improve performance that does not address the fuel economy issue though, if anything it might make it worse.

 

[VTCDN]

You can NOT have 30 MPG AND great power .This You must KNOW.

So the best way to good fuel economy is don't push huge air , be constant and slow with the right foot , and try to just keep it rolling.

Now thats over with , Give it some FUEL !!! You cruising speed is where most of the driving is really done , even the Acceleration bit is a small part of that. Increasing MAX fuel delivery is not in the cruising fuel delivery area of this style of pump.. (all fuel pumps are different for the usage )
Just really remember the settings you start with and fool with , write it all down and use a base setting from where you start.
Like i posted above . Spend just a few hours . "FEELING" is a hard way , use that with speed and the tack all on the same day. Were just talking of a set screw and a lock/jam nut, Pencil and paper to know .

530 , Not bad !! this is almost the same as my 230km 3B :
in order:
compression is 420,410,420,420 warm

So it's not that, I would slip a few brgs under her skirt tho.
(i'm doing cam also because I think I read that the 3 cam brg style was an / Could have oil problem. )

You know you have gone / undone too far on backing out the fuel max adjustment stop when on full throttle your Sean Connery and the Yota is now like a DB6 ..

PoCo is a hard area to do this because of the amount of traffic . you need to do this testing @ hwy speeds 70-90 in fourth gear to keep all level playing.

VT