2nd Gen Sequoia Eibach suspension issues

[solarshooter]

A year ago I purchased a 2013 Sequoia Limited, with the regular non-air/nonadjustable suspension. All 4 shocks were weeping oil and generally it looked a bit sagged out and low. So I decided to replace the suspension and upgrade it for mild offroading, mostly fire roads and mild trails for camping etc. I did lots of research and settled on the Eibach pro truck stage 2 lift kit, hoping for 1" of lift all around, increased travel (really maintaining down travel despite the lift), and a better ride all around without sacrificing handling, reliability, or needing UCAs or a diff drop.

But upon installation I ran into a few issues. First off, the rear only lifted 0.5". Second, the front OEM coilovers I removed were longer than the Eibachs by ~0.75", meaning I'm net losing at least 1" of travel if not more.

I've gone back and forth with Eibach and they've offered to refund me if I remove the kit and send it back to them, or just give me a discount and let me keep it. I spoke with their engineer for this kit and his best guess was I somehow had tundra front coilovers installed by a previous owner, which he claims are ~1.25" longer than stock sequoia. I haven't been able to cross reference the part numbers and verify that or not, but in either case, they fit in there so I'm still a little surprised Eibach wouldn't design their stuff to be at least that long. As far as the rear, he had no good answers other than maybe their testbed vehicle had the third row seats removed which weigh quite a bit and that threw off their measurements, in which case it's a straight up design flaw.

So my main questions are:
1. Does his story about longer tundra coilovers check out? If so is there anything in the front suspension that would be harmed by trying to take advantage of more travel? Since talking with him, I've done some research and messaging and it looks to me like the Tundra and Sequoia front ends are identical, with the same length dampers. Main difference is the Tundra spring rate is 700#/in vs 650 for the Sequoia. So this seems fishy.

2. If you were in my shoes, would you go through the trouble of removing the Eibach stuff and installing something different? Or is the Eibach stuff good enough it's worth keeping on for a good discount? I've found the ride quality/valving to be just ok, and I have topped out a couple times over bad street pavement at about 10-15mph, which I attribute to the lack of travel. Dobinsons 1.75" Twin Tube or IMS are probably the most likely other candidates. I could do 5100s or 6112/5100 with Dobinsons springs as well. Fox and others are options too, but then I'd be messing with mismatched spring/damper combos, which in my mind seems worse than getting a fully matched kit (which is part of why I went with Eibach originally, sigh).

 

[solarshooter]

I spent some time and put together some numbers for maximum designed front travel of various options:
Dobinsons IMS, 6.7"
Dobinsons Twin Tube, 6.2"
Fox 2.5, 6"
Bilstein 5100, 6.6"
Bilstein 6112, 6.2"
King custom shock, 6"
Eibach Pro 2R, 4.3" (!!!)

Eibach doesn't actually publish travel numbers, which should've been a major red flag. But in my back and forth with them, they provided me the max extended and compressed length of their shock, which is how I calculated the 4.3" number above. Clearly this is a HUGE loss of travel compared to OEM or any other aftermarket option, and in my opinion that is a complete step in the wrong direction for suspension performance and should totally disqualify this kit from consideration.

 

[crikeymike]

Hey bud

I'm not sure either if the OEM struts have a different length, but it is likely since they were different ride heights between a Tundra and a Sequoia. Dobinsons use Tundra struts for both the Tundra and Sequoia 2nd gens. They come with a droop spacer that has to be put under the strut mount to get the extra travel, and then it requires UCA's and a diff drop kit so that everything works properly.

Is Eibach using a different strut for the Sequoia and the Tundra? They should just use the same too. 3/4" of actual length equates to about 1.5" of actual travel when measured at the wheel, so that's quite a bit when there isn't a lot to start with.

I wonder what rear coils they used. So many companies use 80 series Land Cruiser rear coils in the 2nd Gen Sequoia's and they are most definitely not suitable for an independent rear suspension like these, and the spring rates are completely different. (220-300LBF/In spring rate in 80's compared to Dobinsons 624LBF/in Sequoia-specific rear coils)

Depending what sort of discount they're offering, you could take that and be done with the situation, keeping everything in place. Or you could buy the 1.75" Dobinsons kit for example, and when you install it, pull off the Eibach and return it at that time.

 

[solarshooter]

Hey bud

I'm not sure either if the OEM struts have a different length, but it is likely since they were different ride heights between a Tundra and a Sequoia. Dobinsons use Tundra struts for both the Tundra and Sequoia 2nd gens. They come with a droop spacer that has to be put under the strut mount to get the extra travel, and then it requires UCA's and a diff drop kit so that everything works properly.

Is Eibach using a different strut for the Sequoia and the Tundra? They should just use the same too. 3/4" of actual length equates to about 1.5" of actual travel when measured at the wheel, so that's quite a bit when there isn't a lot to start with.

I wonder what rear coils they used. So many companies use 80 series Land Cruiser rear coils in the 2nd Gen Sequoia's and they are most definitely not suitable for an independent rear suspension like these, and the spring rates are completely different. (220-300LBF/In spring rate in 80's compared to Dobinsons 624LBF/in Sequoia-specific rear coils)

Depending what sort of discount they're offering, you could take that and be done with the situation, keeping everything in place. Or you could buy the 1.75" Dobinsons kit for example, and when you install it, pull off the Eibach and return it at that time.

Thanks for the prompt response! See my update on designed travel of the Eibach compared to other aftermarket options, I'm definitely going to return and replace with something else. You are probably the best source for info on the Twin Tube vs IMS 1.75" lift options from Dobinsons? Goal here is like 60/40 street/offroad, and the offroading will be slowish PNW fire roads and mild jeep trails. No fast whoops or dunes or anything like that.

 

[solarshooter]

Hey bud

I'm not sure either if the OEM struts have a different length, but it is likely since they were different ride heights between a Tundra and a Sequoia. Dobinsons use Tundra struts for both the Tundra and Sequoia 2nd gens. They come with a droop spacer that has to be put under the strut mount to get the extra travel, and then it requires UCA's and a diff drop kit so that everything works properly.

Is Eibach using a different strut for the Sequoia and the Tundra? They should just use the same too. 3/4" of actual length equates to about 1.5" of actual travel when measured at the wheel, so that's quite a bit when there isn't a lot to start with.

I wonder what rear coils they used. So many companies use 80 series Land Cruiser rear coils in the 2nd Gen Sequoia's and they are most definitely not suitable for an independent rear suspension like these, and the spring rates are completely different. (220-300LBF/In spring rate in 80's compared to Dobinsons 624LBF/in Sequoia-specific rear coils)

Depending what sort of discount they're offering, you could take that and be done with the situation, keeping everything in place. Or you could buy the 1.75" Dobinsons kit for example, and when you install it, pull off the Eibach and return it at that time.

Sorry, didn't respond to all your questions. Eibach has a different kit for the Tundra with longer travel (and maybe different spring rate, not sure). I don't know what spring they use for the rear.

 

[crikeymike]

No problem. Maybe they rushed their development of it. It's weird that it would be a short strut though, as only the Tundra and Sequoia use the same lower strut mount. It's similar to the 200 series but still different, so it's a way better idea to make the Tundra and Sequoia strut be the same.

I really like the twin tube kit, it's super comfortable and we never have anyone complain about it. It's probably what I'd put in a Sequoia if I had one for the best on-road and daily driver comfort. The IMS will still give that but will be firmer since they're monotubes, but offroad they do handle chatter and washboards considerably better. The rear IMS have more travel than the twin tubes too, so there's that benefit, but we also have rear shock extensions to max out the rear travel on the twin tubes.

 

[solarshooter]

I went ahead and ordered the Dobinson's 1.75" kit with the IMS dampers. Once it was all in the cart, the difference in price between the twin tubes and the IMS was only 30%, so I decided to just suck it up and get the higher performance design. I'll report back once I have it installed. Thanks again @crikeymike!

 

[crikeymike]

No worries, excited to hear about the differences. Take photos of the comparison between the Eibach and Dobinsons shock lengths too please.

 

[vtl]

That's awful!

I can only share my FOX suspension experience in TRD PRO. Honestly it feels a bit goofy to me, for log roads it needs to be a bit firmer. I don't feel the same level of multi-stage valve stiffening in response to rougher terrain and higher speeds like I have on my mountain bike's FOX shocks.

On road, a Massachusetts imitation of, it's perfect though.

 

[solarshooter]

Quick question for @crikeymike, when installing this kit, if I put the front at the second snap ring groove for the as advertised 1.75" lift, does that maintain rake front to rear or also level things out? I want to maintain some rake so it rides level when loaded, so do I need to drop the front to the bottom clip or is it good at the standard position?

 

[solarshooter]

That's awful!

I can only share my FOX suspension experience in TRD PRO. Honestly it feels a bit goofy to me, for log roads it needs to be a bit firmer. I don't feel the same level of multi-stage valve stiffening in response to rougher terrain and higher speeds like I have on my mountain bike's FOX shocks.

On road, a Massachusetts imitation of, it's perfect though.

Yeah the more I've driven this Eibach, the less I like the damping. I also think the rear spring rate is way off. The Dobinsons rear coils are MASSIVE compared to the Eibach, feels like twice the amount of metal in there, so I can't imagine what spring rate Eibach specs for their kit. Damping wise it is a little softer than stock for bigger slower motions, but still kind of harsh for small fast motions. Not a great improvement on or off road. And from speaking to their engineer, it sounds like they may not have even really tested this kit? He mentioned they pulled their measurements from a single donor vehicle that then had to be returned after a short time. Seems impossible for them to do any real testing or development on the damping if that story is true. Either way, I have high hopes for this new kit. Install this sat and will follow up with before and after measurements, pics, and comparisons of the two systems.

 

[crikeymike]

Quick question for @crikeymike, when installing this kit, if I put the front at the second snap ring groove for the as advertised 1.75" lift, does that maintain rake front to rear or also level things out? I want to maintain some rake so it rides level when loaded, so do I need to drop the front to the bottom clip or is it good at the standard position?

The lowest clip is the standard height. Raising the clip adds more lift. Front and rear 1.75" maintains rake, but lifting the front more will level it out more.

• 4 Clip height settings. Lowest height is stock/OE height. Each clip height adds approximately 1/2″ of lift. Use clip heights to fine tune lift height or offset for vehicle lean

 

[solarshooter]

The lowest clip is the standard height. Raising the clip adds more lift. Front and rear 1.75" maintains rake, but lifting the front more will level it out more.

• 4 Clip height settings. Lowest height is stock/OE height. Each clip height adds approximately 1/2″ of lift. Use clip heights to fine tune lift height or offset for vehicle lean

OK, I think I heard you say that on the phone, but this is what the instructions in the box say:

 

[solarshooter]

Assembled the struts last night and spoke with Mike again. The definitive check here is the distance from the center of the lower lug to the lowest part of the spring perch that the spring touches. The correct clip position is whatever makes that dimension match stock. In the case of these struts, the printed instructions are actually correct, the second from bottom clip position puts the perch closest to stock for that measurement.

Stock:

Bottom clip:

2nd from bottom clip:

Measurement points on spring perch:

 

[kbahus]

All I can contribute is that when I swapped my Sequoia front struts I gained much more lift than expected and that was with Tundra Bilstein 5100’s on the lowest setting with Tundra springs (heavier spring rate than the Sequoia). I was hoping for a level lift with the stock airbags but ended up having lift the rear to level it out.

 

[solarshooter]

Installed the Dobinsons Kit this weekend. Strut assembly was a breeze since no spring compression was needed to fully tighten the top nut. Installation was straightforward - most important tricks were to use a scissor jack to force the rear arms down enough to remove the rear springs, and loosening the front LCA bolts and removing the ball joint from the knuckle so it freely dropped down to install the front strut. All said and done I got the advertised lift height of 1.75" and the ride is awesome, planted but still very plush, and eats up small and large bumps very well. Have only had it installed for 2 days so I can't say too much, but it was instantly noticeable and much better than stock or Eibach.

Now to the original point of this thread. Comparing the Eibach, OEM, and Dobinsons front strut lengths:

Lengths are 23 1/16", 24 3/16", 24 15/16". Meaning that the Eibach is 1.125" shorter than stock, and Dobinsons is 1.75" longer than stock. With the 2:1 motion ratio, this means I was losing 2.25" of droop travel with the Eibach (in addition to the 1" front lift this meant 3.25" less droop from stock at ride height). The Dobinsons extra length means that I'm gaining 3.5" droop, and increasing droop by 1.75" from the new ride height.

This plus the low lift in the rear mean the Eibach kit is totally mis-advertised, in that you don't get the correct lift OR an increase in travel. From Eibach's website:

Apparently Eibach makes a different front strut for the Tundra which is longer, so that is probably what they should sell for both the Sequoia and Tundra. But their engineer told me they believe the Sequoia strut is shorter than the Tundra, which is clearly wrong. In addition to that I think the rear spring is not ideally spec'd. Here is a comparison of Eibach, OEM, and Dobinsons rear spring:

I don't know enough about coil spring design to say what the obvious differences in diameter, length, number of coils, etc, will result in as far as spring rate, preload at ride height, etc, but I can say that the Dobinsons rear spring feels great and very balanced with the front. I wouldn't want a softer spring rear.